I need to add more storage to a maxed out ProLiant ML350 server.

[framedNlv]

Hello everyone,

I'm no expert with servers/networks but have been doing ok with some classes and a lot of online research.

We are a small engineering firm with about fourteen employees. We run AutoCAD with a large number and size of files on the network. Our budget is not big but we do have a budget to do some upgrades before the end of the year.

I'm looking at adding more storage to our file server. The SCSI bays are maxed out with the largest drives available for the controller (900 Gbytes storage and 140 Gbytes for OS). Currently we have all active and archived files (~300 Gbytes of archived files) on these drives. However we would like to add additional storage and move the archived files to this location. We would still need to access these file for printing and migrating to new projects.

I'm not sure what to look for (USB, Network, SCSI or ?) so please help me decide. We would like to have fault tolerance (raid), good speed (bandwidth?) and one or two Terabytes of capacity.

Here are some of the specs for our system for the file server (we also have a 2003 SBS for the DC & Mail) housed in a Middle Atlantic rack:

OS
2003 Server file server and backup
2003 SBS

System
Product Name ProLiant ML350 G4 (tower)
Physical Processor 1 Intel Xeon @ 3.20 Ghz
Physical Processor 2 Intel Xeon (Not Installed)
Virtual Hyperthreading Processor 1 (Physical 1) Intel Xeon
Virtual Hyperthreading Processor 2 (Physical 1) Intel Xeon
Operating system environment Microsoft Windows 2003 Server Standard Edition Service Pack 2 (Build 3790)
Total memory - 4096 Mbytes
System board
DIMM 1 (DDR SDRAM) 1024 Mbytes (333 MHz)
DIMM 2 (DDR SDRAM) 1024 Mbytes (333 MHz)
DIMM 3 (DDR SDRAM) 1024 Mbytes (333 MHz)
DIMM 4 (DDR SDRAM) 1024 Mbytes (333 MHz)
Does the system have ECC memory Yes
PAE enabled Yes
Resilient memory information
Number of cartridges 1
Number of modules 4
Configured for advanced ecc Yes
Communication
USB Root Hub USB Root Hub 2.0
USB Controller1 Standard PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller2 Standard PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Controller3 Standard PCI to USB Host Controller
USB Root Hub USBRootHub0
USB Root Hub USBRootHub1
USBDeviceOnPort1 American Power Conversion USB UPS Speed=LowSpeed
USBDeviceOnPort2 Aladdin USB Key Speed=LowSpeed
Network Controller 1 HP NC7761 Gigabit Server Adapter
Storage
Diskette Drive1
IDE CD-ROM1 HL-DT-ST CD-ROM GCR-8482B
Physical Hard Drive 1, Controller Slot 0 146.8 Gbytes 10K RPM - COMPAQ BD14685A26
Physical Hard Drive 2, Controller Slot 0 146.8 Gbytes 10K RPM - COMPAQ BD14685A26
Physical Hard Drive 3, Controller Slot 0 300.0 Gbytes 10K RPM - COMPAQ BD3008A4C6
Physical Hard Drive 4, Controller Slot 0 300.0 Gbytes 10K RPM - COMPAQ BD3008A4C6
Physical Hard Drive 5, Controller Slot 0 300.0 Gbytes 10K RPM - COMPAQ BD3008A4C6
Physical Hard Drive 6, Controller Slot 0 300.0 Gbytes 10K RPM - COMPAQ BD3008A4C6
SCSI Tape Drive HP Ultrium 3-SCSI
PCI Slots
PCI-E Slot 1 Available
PCI-E Slot 2 Available
PCI Slot 3 In Use
PCI Slot 4 Available
PCI Slot 5 Available
PCI Slot 6 Available

Thanks,

Chris

[cadtag]

One suggestion would be two get a 1 Tb USB drive, & move your archive files there. Then purchase a 1 TB NAS device, and copy the USB drive there. Overnight, and every night run a robocopy job that copies from the USB to the NAS. USB would be shred to the network, and the NAS would be shared only to the login on the server. deetails of how to set that up would vary depending on the NAS, but should be pretty straightforward. We're not talking high security or massive expense here, just an easy way ahead.

It's not RAID, but is redundant. Odds of both devices failing concurrently is pretty darn low.

[Glenn Pope]

I'm doubting this is in your budget, but I'll throw it out there anyway. An easy solution would be getting a Drobo Pro (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobopro/). They can old up to 8 hard drives, similar to RAID 5 (you don't need all the drives to be exactly the same size and type). If you need more storage or a drive fails then you just pull out the drive and replace it. All without shutting down the server.

There is also the Drobo. Difference between it and the Pro is that it only holds up to 4 drives and doesn't have the faster connection using iSCSI. But its cheaper.

[framedNlv]

One suggestion would be two get a 1 Tb USB drive, & move your archive files there. Then purchase a 1 TB NAS device, and copy the USB drive there. Overnight, and every night run a robocopy job that copies from the USB to the NAS. USB would be shred to the network, and the NAS would be shared only to the login on the server. deetails of how to set that up would vary depending on the NAS, but should be pretty straightforward. We're not talking high security or massive expense here, just an easy way ahead.

It's not RAID, but is redundant. Odds of both devices failing concurrently is pretty darn low.
I had used a 500 GB USB in the past but it was to slow. It would go to sleep and take to long to spin up. It also seemed real slow trying open files.

Chris

[framedNlv]

I'm doubting this is in your budget, but I'll throw it out there anyway. An easy solution would be getting a Drobo Pro (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobopro/). They can old up to 8 hard drives, similar to RAID 5 (you don't need all the drives to be exactly the same size and type). If you need more storage or a drive fails then you just pull out the drive and replace it. All without shutting down the server.

There is also the Drobo. Difference between it and the Pro is that it only holds up to 4 drives and doesn't have the faster connection using iSCSI. But its cheaper.

Glenndp,
I'll look into the Drobo Pro. Do you have one installed? If so how do you like it.


Any other suggestions?


Chris

[framedNlv]

Should I be looking for SCSI or SATA? With multiple users will SATA perform as good as our built in SCSI drives?


Thanks,

Chris

[cadtag]

I had used a 500 GB USB in the past but it was to slow. It would go to sleep and take to long to spin up. It also seemed real slow trying open files.

Chris

I'm not seeing that now with my portable hard drive, but your mileage may vary. Remember that the network is going to be a lot slower than the Server-to-USB drive connection anyway.

for your archived data, it shouldn't be that big a problem. Or look into multiple NAS boxes -- one to be user accessible, and one for redundant copies of the archived jobs. Either way, the principle is keep it simple and easy to work with.

[Glenn Pope]

Glenndp,
I'll look into the Drobo Pro. Do you have one installed? If so how do you like it.


Any other suggestions?


Chris

Don't have one install here (trying to get one tho). I know a few people that do use them and they love it.

[Glenn Pope]

Should I be looking for SCSI or SATA? With multiple users will SATA perform as good as our built in SCSI drives?


Thanks,

Chris

SCSI has been getting phased out over the last few years and getting replaced by SATA. Most of our systems use SATA and have been pleased with the performance. As stated by cadtag your network connection will be the bottleneck.

[framedNlv]

I have also posted on another site (Petri). One guy recommends looking at "QNAP and Synology" products. Both are NAS systems like the "Drobo Pro" but have a lot more built in. The NAS products seem to have a pricing advantage over DAS due to the cost of the interface (network VS a controller card). I have also limited my selection to a rack mount system. Some of the products have cheaper units that are not rack mount (FYI).

I have looked at the HP MSA2000, HP StorageWorks 20 Modular Smart Array, Drobo Pro, QNAP and the Synology. The Cost of the HP seems to go way up buy the time I add the Interface card and the HP drives.

The Drobo Pro seems to be a simple solution with plenty of drives space and starts out around 1,499.00 with out drives (up to 8 drives).

The QNAP (NAS) starts out around $700 (TS-410U) with out drives (up to 4 drives).

The Synology (NAS) starts out around $1300 (RS409) with out drives (up to 4 drives).

Both the QNAP and Synology offer different models that have different features (CPU, redundant PS, RAM and so on. They both have integrated solutions for FTP, Photo server ITunes server and so on. The one thing that I found interesting was the Surveillance Suite. The ability to record Network cameras (wireless or hardwired IP cameras) seems to be a nice feature except IP cameras are more expensive.

There seems to be a lot of options with the different systems and will take me some time to research. At this time I'm leaning towards the QNAP system.

If anyone has some insight with the NAS systems please speak up.

Thanks,
Chris

[framedNlv]

On the subject of Network being a bottle neck..........

We were thinking about putting two new identical network cards into the servers. Would this help the bottle neck? Is this a simple thing to configure? Is there any reccomend cards for the ProLiant ML350?

Chris

[framedNlv]

I found a site with some really good benchmarks and comparisons:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/

[Glenn Pope]

The Drobo Pro seems to be a simple solution with plenty of drives space and starts out around 1,499.00 with out drives (up to 8 drives).

The QNAP (NAS) starts out around $700 (TS-410U) with out drives (up to 4 drives).

The Synology (NAS) starts out around $1300 (RS409) with out drives (up to 4 drives).


(Warning: More Drobo pushing!! LOL) They just released 2 more models the Drobo Elite and Drobo S. The Elite is top of the line, and the price reflects that. Starts out at $3,500. The Drobo S start at $800 and holds up to 5 drives. Puts it more on par with the QNAP. Just thought I would let you know if you hadn't already seen them.

Thanks for the link to SmallNetBuilder. Looks like a good site.

[framedNlv]

This is what we bought:
HP 1810G-24 (http://www.procurve.com/products/switches/HP_ProCurve_1810G_Switch_Series/overview.htm?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN)- 24 port switch with Link Aggregation
HP NC360T (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Home.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=329290&prodSeriesId=3201172&lang=en&cc=us) - 2 port server NIC with Link Aggregation
HP 351580-B21 - HP 128MB Battery Backed Write
Thecus NAS N8800PRO (http://www.thecus.com/products_over.php?cid=11&pid=199&set_language=english) - NAS with Link Aggregation and (8) two TB drives.

One of the reasons we didn't get the "Drobo" is the CPU/MEM and all the added features that come with the Thecus. The QNAP seems to have more addons but the specs on the Thecus seem to be a little better.

On a side note, I have read that some of the iSCSI connections loose the folder shares when rebooted.

I'll try to post my results after we get everything working.

Thanks,
Chris

[kristin]

has anyone successfully used DROBO with Revit - shared across a network? we are considering this as a server solution for our home based office, and am concerned about speed when pushing info to the central file.