Soft for BIM management?

[jbenoit44]

hi there,

I'm looking for your experience, guys, about management soft s.a. Navisworks, Solibri model checker. I already tried Navis, but I need experts advices.

Can you share your workflow in BIM management?

see you

JB

[Brian Myers]

BIM can be practiced in different ways, depending on what your profession is. What do you do or use BIM for?

[Craig_L]

hi there,

I'm looking for your experience, guys, about management soft s.a. Navisworks, Solibri model checker. I already tried Navis, but I need experts advices.

Can you share your workflow in BIM management?

see you

JB

JB I posted a response in your "Who are you?" post with a link to some case studies these have some excellent examples of management software utilised in the BIM process, and the workflows associated. I will post it here again for you, but just so you know this is the same link from the other post...

just copy/paste the next line into google

national guidelines for digital modelling case studies

[jbenoit44]

thanx K10, I got the file already, but haven't read it yet.

Brian, my company is a general contractor in the AEC industry.

I imagine starting BIM workflow with projects s.a. office buildings, seniors houses, and also particular project like sewage water treatment plant.
My company has already a BIM experience in major projects, my purpose is for the everyday projects.
We have inside civil eng., structural eng., MEP eng., construction eng. and architects.
But if a project may be developped inside entirely; when construction starts, we deal with external subcontractors.

I tried Navis, but the soft is not quiet perfect I guess, and forums make me think there are few users.

Let me know your opinion.

regards,

JB

[RobertB]

I tried [Navisworks], but the [software] is not [quite] perfect I guess, and forums make me think there are few users.Actually, Navisworks was quite impressive, especially before Autodesk bought it. The software was so good that it really needed few major updates.

Unhappily, since Autodesk bought it I think it hasn't been managed as well. More bugs seem to be creeping in. Clash detections seem to be less reliable. And the larger issue is that the Revit team and the Navisworks team don't seem to be talking to each other. For example, why are light sources even being imported as solid objects?!

Here in the Northwest US there are lots of firms using the product, including contractors. But it certainly behooves you get evaluation copies of Navisworks and Vico (and others) and test their capabilities and limitations in the context of your intended use.

[jbenoit44]

Ok, Navis may be the good one. Could you please give me some other soft's names? Not too much ads about those in Europe.

About the way I want to use it, don't really know. What are doing with soft like Navis in the US? I tried 4d animation, cool stuff but nothings better that a time schedule!
the main issue for me will be the lack of 3d models from MEP. we are some steps behind i guess.

As usual, your experience is helpful.

JB

[greenwaldc]

I work for a General Contractor in California, and we are using Navis as part of our BIM program. Our focus with Navis is on MEP coordination. Each of the MEP subcontractors creates their individual model, which is then imported into Navis. We run a clash detection, send out a list of the clashes, and have the drawings updated.

This basic process is repeated daily, as an alternative to the classic 'light table' coordination meetings. To facilitate this; we set up a daily virtual meeting, using Microsoft Live Meeting, where each of the MEP subs can check in, ask questions of any other contractor, and see a real-time view of the current model.

[jbenoit44]

that's the way I'ev imagined to work. What kind of files do you put into Navis?
Are they all Autodesk products?
Do you have any experience with IFC?

And the other part is: what if the subcontractors have no BIM model? do you put that thing in the contract?
Do you have internal or external modelling specialist who put 2d datas into a BIM model?
If so (a subcontactor with no model), does it worth modelling by your self anyway?

Who! so many questions I have...

Thanx in advance for your time answering.

JB

[greenwaldc]

Navis is quite powerful, and can work with every type of CAD file I have come across (including sketchup!). You'll have to check Autodesk literature for a complete list of compatible file formats / programs.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112&id=10578958

We require our subcontractors to produce CAD files with the 3D information built in. It's a logical extension, as we have been requiring 2D CAD files for decades already. To be blunt, if the MEP contractor is unable to produce CAD files, they will not be getting the project. They may not have experience with BIM, but we can teach that as we go...and if I'm honest, it is always a learning experience for me.

Just to help with a sample workflow:
I receive a Revit model of the project from the Architect
I export a 3D gridline file from the Revit model (in .dwg format)
I create new plan views in the Revit model, typically top-of-slab to top-of-slab, and export each one as a .dwg file. (Backgrounds)
I export MEP backgrounds and Structural from the Revit model.

Each of these files is provided to the MEP subcontractors, and they begin their coordination drawing process.

As the MEP coordination drawings are updated daily, I pull them into a Navis model which consists of Gridlines, Arch backgrounds, Struc. Backgrounds and MEP coordination drawings. I then run clash detection, publish lists of valid interferences, and repeat the process floor-by-floor.


This has been greatly simplified, but the process should make a little sense. We do our BIM work in-house. Between myself and the other BIM managers, as well as the Subcontractors, we are able to sort out any issue which comes up.

In case you were wondering, you'll need full versions of Revit, AutoCAD, and Navis, along with the numerous plug-ins that your subcontractors use.

[greenwaldc]

Navis is quite powerful, and can work with every type of CAD file I have come across (including sketchup!). You'll have to check Autodesk literature for a complete list of compatible file formats / programs.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112&id=10578958

We require our subcontractors to produce CAD files with the 3D information built in. It's a logical extension, as we have been requiring 2D CAD files for decades already. To be blunt, if the MEP contractor is unable to produce CAD files, they will not be getting the project. They may not have experience with BIM, but we can teach that as we go...and if I'm honest, it is always a learning experience for me.

Just to help with a sample workflow:
I receive a Revit model of the project from the Architect
I export a 3D gridline file from the Revit model (in .dwg format)
I create new plan views in the Revit model, typically top-of-slab to top-of-slab, and export each one as a .dwg file. (Backgrounds)
I export MEP backgrounds and Structural from the Revit model.

Each of these files is provided to the MEP subcontractors, and they begin their coordination drawing process.

As the MEP coordination drawings are updated daily, I pull them into a Navis model which consists of Gridlines, Arch backgrounds, Struc. Backgrounds and MEP coordination drawings. I then run clash detection, publish lists of valid interferences, and repeat the process floor-by-floor.


This has been greatly simplified, but the process should make a little sense. We do our BIM work in-house. Between myself and the other BIM managers, as well as the Subcontractors, we are able to sort out any issue which comes up.

In case you were wondering, you'll need full versions of Revit, AutoCAD, and Navis, along with the numerous plug-ins that your subcontractors use.

[jbenoit44]

Hi green, that's a great explanation.
I work in Europe, and construction process is not quiet the same as yours; so my next question is: when do you provide BIM worflow with subcontractors along the timeline of a project? Do you think it is a time saving way of working?

A little more: subcontractors are not used to provide daily updates in Europe, we have to work on it I guess. Are you used to, or you became so because of clash detection?
And to an end, is BIM management for you a full time job?

Regards,
JB

[greenwaldc]

I'll use one of my current projects as an example. We have gone out to bid, and are in the process of awarding contracts, specifically for the MEP trades. Over the past month, during the bid/bid review process, I have been preparing backgrounds, gridlines, etc., with the intention of beginning BIM coordination sessions within the next two weeks, which is barely enough time to coordinate the underground utilities before the footings are poured in mid-December.

Regarding the benefits of BIM, yes, it does save time and money in the end. Much more time is spent up front on a project, but when it comes to installation, there are fewer issues between the trades. We also are able to sort out some Architectural details during the coordination process, instead of waiting for it to be built in the field. Basically, there is less re-work in the field, I find that to be well worth the added coordination up front.

We have had some issues with contractors failing to provide updates, or re-uploading old drawings. The problem tends to resolve itself after the first time somebody does this though. When modifications to a drawing are made, and the drawing refreshed in Navis, the modifications show up in a different color. It becomes quite apparent who is or who is not doing their jobs. Since we are all relying on each other to provide up-to-date and accurate information in the drawings, and failure to do so sets the entire group back, there is a large incentive to get the job done.

And finally, yes, BIM/MEP management is my full time job.

[jbenoit44]

As I want to build such a workflow in my company, how long did it take for you and your company to manage this?
I'm looking for the correct timeline between the very start of BIM "way of work" and the stage that is yours.
In my country, we're a bit late about getting outside 2D cad, and training people may be tough. The more I correctly estimate your evolution, the best I will succeed.

As a Navisworks all-day user, how long have you mastered this soft?

regards,

JB

[greenwaldc]

My company has been pushing BIM for about 5 years now. We started by working with other contractors in the area and working on a set of 'standards', which we could use and incorporate into our contracts. I personally have been doing this for about 2 years now.

I would say that your first few projects will be a little rough, you'll be working out the bugs, and learning the best ways to utilize your programs. You will be best served by working with other technically-savvy contractors, and working together to set your BIM standards.

One other option, at least here in the States, is to hire an outside consultant to run your first BIM project. From that experience, you can often get ahead, and shorten the time you would otherwise require to implement it.

[robw1031]

This issue "We have had some issues with contractors failing to provide updates, or re-uploading old drawings,"

Is caused by this issue "which is barely enough time to coordinate the underground utilities before the footings are poured in mid-December."

[greenwaldc]

Rob,
I do believe that is part of the issue. It has been a challenge to convince Project Managers that coordination doesn't just happen, it takes time. To push the point, I have been working with our schedulers, and inserting coordination and review/approval activities linked to both contracts and installation of items such as UG utilities.

The first response is usually "you need to get coordination done faster", to which I respond "get your MEP contracts done in less than 4 weeks, and the issue is resolved."

In the end, it all works out, although each project seems to go faster than the last.

[jbenoit44]

hi guys,

Green, did you benchmarked the worflow of coordination you're following today with the way you did before (before the big bad BIM arrived!)?

This is the point top managers wants to evaluate, even if no one knows the job that is done in 2d. The only thing that afraid them is the effort(and cost) people have to make to use the new softs.

[Craig_L]

The question that can be asked in return to that is:

Does the effort and cost involved in training equate to;
Greater productivity
Fewer errors - meaning less cost incurred during construction phase (this has already been shown to be the case, and is documented in the BIM guidelines that you have)
Cost savings for clients & the project teams
Greater staff retention & more skilled staff
Shift in liability

There's much more to this list, but the whole picture needs to be looked at to see if there is long term cost benefit and also staff retention, all of these factors lead to savings further down the track. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money...

[greenwaldc]

That isn't an easy question to answer, as you must evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. From what I've seen, detailing/coordination time increases quite a bit up front, however fewer errors make their way into the field. By solving an error in the detailing phase, you save the cost of a work crew wasting half their day resolving it in the field...not to mention that other trades will likely be involved in the field, further running up the cost of field changes.

I've found that doing coordination on-line using Live Meeting, Go To Meeting or similar software, as opposed to meeting in person to do overlays, has been much more productive. We gain an hour or two due to 'travel time', and are able to re-detail problem areas immediately.

[jbenoit44]

I thank you for all of that, guys.

My mind is clear about the way I will follow.

See you on another thread,

JB