Do surveyors need Civil 3D?

[civil3Dguide]

Here are my thoughts (http://civil3dguide.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/why-land-surveyors-dont-need-civil-3d/), share yours.

Land Surveyors don’t need AutoCAD Civil 3D because they do not need all of the functions in this software. Many of them only need something more simple, such as Autodesk Land Desktop. They could get by with plain AutoCAD except they need to import survey points, set coordinates to their drawings, label bearings, create a surface sometimes, sub-divide a parcel here or there and maybe create alignment every now and again. They are very likely fluent in these tasks that they currently do in the software they are using now. Do we agree?

Ok, now this is why they need to be using AutoCAD Civil 3D!

First and for-most, they need to be competitive. Using older software can make any business harder to work with. They need to have drawings of the same software as the Engineering firms they work with do. Sharing drawings back and forth is always better than not being able to use each others data or drawings. There is so much more control of survey points in C3D. From their display, to being able to perform adjustments inside of the CAD software. Surface creation and editing is by far much faster in C3D than in LDD (LDT depends on the version). You can easily move around the contour labels and create surface elevations anywhere on a C3D surface. C3D surfaces can be used for staking, allowing the surveyor to stake any point on a project site, with elevation, and without first creating a point for this stake-out location. It is much easier in C3D to preform quantity calculations, for the borrow pits, landfills, ponds, etc…

Sub-dividing parcels in C3D is so much better, faster and easier, that if you have to do even a few of these a year, it could make the transition worth it for this feature alone. The automated annotation can keep you from having to calculate the text size in each and every drawing. I know; I once had that memorized as well, but no longer have a need for knowing that sort of information, let alone having a font size table taped to my desk. Having the ability to create and market 3D as-built information or BIM models is a pretty cool thing for your firm to boost about! Autodesk is not going to support the very last release of LDD (2009 version) for very much longer. Which is another issue, trying to get LDD installed on a Windows 7 64bit computer. And last; hopefully this never happens, but if you find yourself without a job you better have some Civil 3D knowledge, or you may find yourself at a bit of a disadvantage in the job market.

[s_morgan_b]

While I do agree with the "stay competative" aspect of the argument, I do disagree with Autodesk's unilateral decision to eliminate an AutoCad vertical that serves surveyors rather well.

IF Autodesk had chosen to maintain Land, then the file compatibility would have been a non issue.

As for data control: I find that the data control is somewhat "chaotic" in C3D as versus LDT. There is no default group or surface, in LDT 2009, that may contain incorrect vertical data (some items may have "bad" vertical from GPS at times). My preference is to have more manual control over the point data, such as offered by LDT, than the automated process in C3D. I think this allows a more critical examination of the data prior to surface creation.

Additionally, the whole "styles" process is extremely painful when you don't really understand what is what. Controlling how my points are displayed in LDT is simple - extremely simple. C3D seems to apply a layer of complexity that a good programmer never would have used.

That being said, the C3D environment is dynamic unlike the static environment of LDT 2009 - that is a definate advantage.

The other thing I object is the overall reduction in screen realestate. I'm on 24" monitors right now and find, to get the same drawing area to work in, I'd need to go to a larger display.

But this is all moot as AutoDesk has not given us a choice at all in how we manage our CAD or our data. Regardless of improvements, I still feel that the whole process is crippled in it's complexity (over 1800? styles). Yup, I'm still harping on changes we knew about 2 years ago but I'm working in an environment where users do not (read: will not) change from earlier versions as "setup time is too consuming" (going from 2008 to 2009 LDT). We are currently building our templates and styles for 2011 C3D and the outcry will be enormous when I take away their 2009 LDT.

And, yes, it's a grumpy Monday.

PS. No issues running LDT 2009 under win 7 64-bit here at all.

[BlackBox]

This seems terribly applicable:

CAD Management: Too Good for Your Own Good? (http://http://www.augi.com/library/cad-management-too-good-for-your-own-good/)

We have several folks (part of another discipline) who have only adopted 2009 LDT recently (dropping 2006 LDT), whereas my team adopted 2009 nearly two years ago. Our surveyors were so scared to make the change, despite our sharing with them the lack of actually change in Land functionality (since 2004?). It's pretty ridiculous, frankly.

My employer has mandated that all CAD users *will* transition to Civil 3D 2011 this year; God help those suckers.

[sinc]

While I do agree with the "stay competative" aspect of the argument, I do disagree with Autodesk's unilateral decision to eliminate an AutoCad vertical that serves surveyors rather well.

IF Autodesk had chosen to maintain Land, then the file compatibility would have been a non issue.


Ugh... Maintain Land? As a vertical that serves surveyors rather well? Seriously?

I couldn't imagine using LDD today. We use C3D, and run circles around what we could do with LDD. Within six months of moving to C3D, we didn't even want to start up LDD anymore... And that's when we were on C3D 2008, which in retrospect, wasn't even ready for prime time. C3D 2011 is far better.

If you don't move to C3D, I'd say move to Carlson, or Microsurvey, or SOMETHING. I can't believe people are still trying to use LDD. It never was really that great, and it has barely changed at all in a decade. It's now way outdated.

[BlackBox]

Ugh... Maintain Land? As a vertical that serves surveyors rather well? Seriously?

I couldn't imagine using LDD today. We use C3D, and run circles around what we could do with LDD. Within six months of moving to C3D, we didn't even want to start up LDD anymore... And that's when we were on C3D 2008, which in retrospect, wasn't even ready for prime time. C3D 2011 is far better.

If you don't move to C3D, I'd say move to Carlson, or Microsurvey, or SOMETHING. I can't believe people are still trying to use LDD. It never was really that great, and it has barely changed at all in a decade. It's now way outdated.

I *wish* some of the hard-nosed LDT hold-outs 'round here would actually be open to feedback like this (especially he who shall not be named - LoL).


I feel like we've been held back (as a company) for far too long, being relegated to LDT, all because of "He who shall not be named's" blessed 2006 LDT deployment.

To be blunt, if your State is adopting Civil 3D as an acceptable format for DoT jobs (as mine will be soon), you're about four years late to the party, dude. :roll:


(^^ I've got a major case of the Monday's ^^) LoL

[s_morgan_b]

I truly don't disagree but the learning curve for most around this office is horrific. I *finally* got 2 people to move out of LDD 2008 to 2009 in preparing to move everyone to C3D 2011 sometime this summer.

The truly horrible part is that no one here really understands the background work that has to be done to make C3D work (styles). The interface with the ribbon has confused the daylights out of most people here as well.

My suggested solution (a bit tongue in cheek) was to fire everyone and start with a fresh batch of drafters from university or college who know nothing but C3D and have never touched Land.

We are making the move to 2011 but it's going to be a real process: styles, retraining, etc. Consider that I can't get folk to even date and name folders correcting, it's going to be a very painful experience.

PS. It's another grumpy Monday.

[BlackBox]

I truly don't disagree but the learning curve for most around this office is horrific. I *finally* got 2 people to move out of LDD 2008 to 2009 in preparing to move everyone to C3D 2011 sometime this summer.

The truly horrible part is that no one here really understands the background work that has to be done to make C3D work (styles). The interface with the ribbon has confused the daylights out of most people here as well.

My suggested solution (a bit tongue in cheek) was to fire everyone and start with a fresh batch of drafters from university or college who know nothing but C3D and have never touched Land.

We are making the move to 2011 but it's going to be a real process: styles, retraining, etc. Consider that I can't get folk to even date and name folders correcting, it's going to be a very painful experience.

"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down":

Moving from Land Desktop to Civil 3D (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/civil_moving_from_ldt1.pdf) (<-- direct link to PDF)

Never before did I think that a Mary Poppins quote would be applicable in a CAD forum!?! lmao


PS. It's another grumpy Monday.

:lol:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slideshows/1001/slideshow_100185/display_image.jpg?x=682217

[civil3Dguide]

I like your suggested solution!
That is at times the best way to go, as I have experienced people saying to their employer "I'm not using it". And yet they still get to keep thier job. As if there are not thousands of people without jobs that would gladly take their position and use the software that the boss says to use.