Meeting Budgets

[dalewww]

It seems that this forum is the right place to put this. I need an opinion from other Autocad users in the architectural field about meeting budgets.
Our bosses here just in the last week have been commenting on the hours that we spend on our projects. They are saying this because we have typically been over on most if not all jobs. They keep telling us to be efficient yet at the same time need the drawings so noted and detailed that you can hardly see any actual graphics representing the building. We also have 2 senior associates who detail even the threads on the screws in 3/4" detail.
I keep say to everyone that we are smart enough to know what a builder needs, so lets give them that. However, the principles are of old school thought and believe that the drawings are just as important if not more important than the built product.
I am at the end of my rope in talking about this every year and still no change.

Has anyone got an opinion on how detailed is too detailed, what keeps them on budget, and what happens when they go over, or any other comments on this issue.

Thanks.

[thomas.stright]

I have found that if you don't detail everything, Things will be missed or misinterpreted. It seems to be a trend that if someone isn't told exactly what to do or how to do it, It will not get done correctly.

[Steve_Bennett]

ummm....

Isn't this that coffee without CAD forum? Might get more responses in the CAD management general forum.

Sorry if I'm sounding grumpy/sarcastic, but I'm rather irritated by a certain issue involving holes.

[scwegner]

Has anyone got an opinion on how detailed is too detailed, what keeps them on budget, and what happens when they go over, or any other comments on this issue..

What you described sounds waaaaaay too detail. Do they honestly believe that a builder will pay any attention to what screw thread is specified?
That said, I think you have to tailor the drawings to whoever has to interpret them. If you don't have a good relationship with a builder/sub-contractor, then you may want some extra detail to CYA. Either way, should the details take that much more time? How often do you have to start from scratch on something like that versus pulling the details out of a library?

[dalewww]

sorry to irritate you. Not my intent. I will switch to another forum.

[mom of 3]

sorry to irritate you. Not my intent. I will switch to another forum.
you weren't the irritating one he was talking about, Dale...........
as for the budgets, I can't comment........we've got a very similar deal here.

[dalewww]

How often do you have to start from scratch on something like that versus pulling the details out of a library?


That is one of my issues as well. The two senior associates believe that we are sooooo custom that we can't use a library of details. Some how the principles believe that.

[dalewww]

I was on another forum and was told this would be a better one to post in. I need an opinion from other Autocad users in the architectural field about meeting budgets. Opinions from principles to drafters would be nice to get.
Our bosses here just in the last week have been commenting on the hours that we spend on our projects. They are saying this because we have typically been over on most if not all jobs. They keep telling us to be efficient yet at the same time need the drawings so noted and detailed that you can hardly see any actual graphics representing the building. We also have 2 senior associates who detail even the threads on the screws in 3/4" detail.
I keep say to everyone that we are smart enough to know what a builder needs, so lets give them that. However, the principles are of old school thought and believe that the drawings are just as important if not more important than the built product.
I am at the end of my rope in talking about this every year and still no change.

Has anyone got an opinion on how detailed is too detailed, what keeps them on budget, and what happens when they go over, or any other comments on this issue.

Thanks.
Dale W

[scwegner]

That is one of my issues as well. The two senior associates believe that we are sooooo custom that we can't use a library of details. Some how the principles believe that.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Even if every single job is custom, it's easier to start from a detail and adjust than start over from scratch. And they don't customize the screw threads, right? But then, you know that already.

[BrenBren]

I was on another forum and was told this would be a better one to post in.
I have merged your two threads and put them both in this forum, the Cad Management Forum. This will eliminate the cross posting and help keep things all nice and neat and orderly (unlike my office ;) )

[Baghera]

Budgets are meant to be met??????

Whoa there's a conscept.

I'd say start your own library, and use it. When the PTB see how much faster your getting stuff done that's when you look at them and say "Well... we should be doing it this way."

[Maverick91]

Budgets, like other forms of fiction, don't always reflect reality. But one of the major tenants of CAD work is effeciency. Drafting is not the only item in a budget, however.

As far as how detailed a drawing should be, you just don't know who will be on the other end of the line and how familiar he with reading drawings.

[jaberwok]

Doesn't anyone have any principals?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, how come the people who do the budgeting are always right and those that don't meet the budget are always wrong? Perhaps some of the budget assumptions need revising.

[michael.12445]

If your principals are complaining that budgets aren't being met because you aren't being efficient enough about your drafting, perhaps you could ask them to point out specific areas where they think efficiency could be improved. To "help" them out, you could go through a set of drawings and estimate how long it took to draw each sheet or each detail, and create a spreadsheet showing the total.

Once they realize it's taking several hours to lay out all those screw threads - and isn't ever likely to take fewer hours, as long as everything is custom-drawn - they may conclude it's time either to revise their budget assumptions or their production methods.

They might also appreciate that you were proactive about analyzing how to manage your time.

Michael Evans
Togawa & Smith, Inc.

[tbedrich]

I get the same speech after every job is almost finished.
"we are making small mistakes, we need to spend less time getting construction plans finished. We are loosing money........"
But yet he will mark up the smallest thing and want it corrected, or he will attempt to correct it himself and take 2 hours of his time and 1 hour of my time trying to explain "how to", instead of me correcting it in 30 min.
So I think that it is time to look for another job.
Any body hiring???

[dalewww]

I
"we are making small mistakes, we need to spend less time getting construction plans finished. We are loosing money........"

But yet he will mark up the smallest thing and want it corrected, So I think that it is time to look for another job.
Any body hiring???

sounds familiar.......the job market isn't what it used to be....I have been checking for about a year

[Coolmo]

We usually go over budget because the higher-ups aren't asking the right questions so we tend to redo EVERYTHING over and over and over again. Luckily, I just had the magic button installed on my keyboard that they seem to think I have. :razz:

[mjfarrell]

In my experience missed budgets are caused by two general factors,
the people, and the process.

We once attempted to address the fiction part of the budget by having
a principal, and the lead person responsible for certain aspects of the
bid, estimate the time it would take, then ask the person actually doing
the work to estimate the time required. Then we had a written estimate of the
time by two individual. Should those items 'go over' they would be compared to
these estimates, this allowed for an honest assessment between projected
times, and actual times. Most often the manager responsible for the estimates
was always lower than the workers projection, and it was documented that
more or less time was required.

A method similar to this will allow your company to look at the budget process
from start to end. And will allow an honest comparison between expectations
and reality.


As to the people side of the equation. This is the hard part to quantify.
Do they have the right attitude, or do they show up for a check?
Does the company support and promote a dynamic learning environment?
In my travels I find that the biggest impediment to productivity and profits
is the users skill levels. One can not work using the most productive
tools and techniques unless all on the team know how they work and how to
use them. So is the company wanting more profits without spending some
time or money training the staff to make that money? Or is the company
guilty of being cheep on the training budget and then wondering why they
don't achieve the profit margins they desire?

[Phil Ferguson]

We once attempted to address the fiction part of the budget by having
a principal, and the lead person responsible for certain aspects of the
bid, estimate the time it would take, then ask the person actually doing
the work to estimate the time required. Then we had a written estimate of the
time by two individual. Should those items 'go over' they would be compared to
these estimates, this allowed for an honest assessment between projected
times, and actual times. Most often the manager responsible for the estimates
was always lower than the workers projection, and it was documented that
more or less time was required.

We have done this on some of the projects that we have done in the past. I, primarily as a 'Lead Technician', like this approach since I then have a more accurate vision of what the project requirements are, as opposed to only knowing what is required right now. This also allows me to plan my steps and processes according to the budget. We are typically left in the dark at this stage and when the question about the amount of time available or the due date is asked, the answer is usually...as soon as you can.

The trend that I have seen in the market in this neck of the woods is this...Before the market turned down (in general), money was flying in all directions. Developers were willing to pay a little more for a 'custom' product that was concise and well thought-out, this is not always the case anymore. What I have seen recently is developers who want construction drawings quickly and for as little money as possible. While there is something to be said about staying true to yourself (custom drawings, extra services, etc.), you also have got to be flexible to the market. As a coworker of mine says, "You can't have Prime Rib on a Big Mac budget." If a developer is looking for a Big Mac and they only want to pay for a Big Mac, then give them a Big Mac...don't try to give them a medium-rare Prime Rib.

[thomas.stright]

What I have seen recently is developers who want construction drawings quickly and for as little money as possible.
Which makes it hard for us to give them a complete coordinated set of field drawings when thier design is half-baked. Then they ask why our costs are high.....

[tbedrich]

sounds familiar.......the job market isn't what it used to be....I have been checking for about a year

Maybe time to change professions :beer:

[tsigler]

Do you have any say during the estimating stages? I generally estimate how much time I would need to do the drawings. I then multiply that by 1.5 to allow for the fact that most of the darfters below me require more time and I will be spending more time helping them. Of course there are other factors, for instance, if you know that a particular client has a habit of changing is mind often, the project is in it's infancy and could change radically, etc.

By the time I am ready to pass my estimate to my bosses, I have made a "cartoon" set of sheets, know what it is I plan to draw and who I will be calling on to assist me. If some part(s) of the project are too vague to get a real grasp on I will note what I think is going to happen and estimate it as such letting the higher ups know that this is an iffy area (my version of CYA).

FWIW

Tom

[dalewww]

No, Tom, we do not have any say in the estimating process. The way we work here is we get a job and it is ours. We are then handed hours on the job a month or two after we start schematics. By this time we are usually over the schematic budget. We tell them that and we here from them ' It's alright we will adjust it later'. Then when we get to the end of the project we, as project managers, get at least a week of changes, design and graphical, from the architect. We will tell them we will go over budget with theses changes. We are still told to change the drawings.
This action leads us to a variety of thoughts. The budgets do not matter, why should we say anything next time, etc. If we were to actually put a budget on project, I think I would double what I think it should take. I didn't even mention that before the project goes out, the senior associates who draw the screw threads have to check the drawing. That in itself is another week. I am now already 80 hour over budget. Yet it still goes on. The begining of the new year we get the comments of staying on budget.

It is a confusing issue. I thank all of you who have responded. It gives a lot to think about and also know that we are not the only people in this position.

[tbedrich]

It is a confusing issue.


YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN