Using Keynotes with Condoc Example

[SkiSouth]

EDIT: NOTE WITH RELEASE 9 this tutorial changes. While some concepts are the same,
Release 9 has changed the approach to be taken with keynotes.


Here is a simple tutorial on creating Keynotes. Many have asked on the forum how to do the CSI condoc method. This tutorial will show you one way.

As always comments are welcome.

This is a PDF file zipped to fit under file limits

[Scott D Davis]

nice tutorial Ski! You always give really good desciptions and images!

Reading this, makes me think again, how nice it would be if the Factory would create a way for us to make annotations "sheet aware", like a detail callout knows what sheet its on. Then when you created your Noteblock for your keynotes, the noteblock could be set to fill in only the notes on that sheet.

It can be done now, through your shared parameter, but the user has to manually fill in the sheet number for the keynote tag.....thats so anti-Revit!

[SkiSouth]

It can be done now, through your shared parameter, but the user has to manually fill in the sheet number for the keynote tag.....thats so anti-Revit!

Thanks Scott. I just try to write them so if I have to go back and use the tutorial, I can understand what I did... :D

I agree about being "sheet aware". The information is there as Revit "knows" when a detail has been placed on what sheet, so it would be nice to have access to that information as a "read only" variable.

[Burt'o]

Thanks Skisouth!

My keynote / type catalogs are working so much better now, have adapted it to the AU Speed-Spec specification codes. My architect customers are quite impressed.

Would really love a guru to do a short TnT on using the Excel2TC processor, I am only a guru in training and would like to get my head around this!

TIA
Brent

[SkiSouth]

Thanks Skisouth!

My keynote / type catalogs are working so much better now, have adapted it to the AU Speed-Spec specification codes. My architect customers are quite impressed.

Brent

Cool, 8) , glad this tutorial helped..

[GuyR]

Excel2TC processor

As I wrote it I may be able to help :-)

What is it you don't understand?

FWIW, excel2TC was written for 3 reasons.

Firstly, it was written to deal with certain issues with text formatting of type catalogue text entries. I haven't tested this, but apparently these issues are no longer required as of V7? Anyone from the factory prepared to comment?

Secondly, it was meant as a proof of concept for further development.

Thirdly, as has been discussed in a wide number of threads, keynoting has quite a few issues that need to be resolved. And as yet, this hasn't happened in either V5,6 or V7. The intention is/was to develop the excel2TC further when the functionality improved. Perhaps they're waiting for the API to correct these deficiencies? That presents a little bit of a problem for the continuing development of this program, so we'll see what happens.

I'd be interested to hear what issues excel2TC has for people trying to use it and what they'd like to see improved.

You can get me directly on guy AT r-e-d.co.nz

Regards,

Guy

[SCShell]

Thanks Ski!
Great job!!!
Steve

[msmith.tsap]

Great tutorial Ski!

Building my standard keynotes out of Condoc listing and have run into strange error code. When loading my keynote file I get "Cannot parse header F4" and will not load.
Any ideas on my problem?

Have double checked line code and all seems right.

Thanks.

MarcTsap

[SkiSouth]

not sure but sounds like a text error. Did you try the text file I included in the tutorial? You can also
try just a few lines of your keynote file to see if that works. If it does then there's probably an error
somewhere in your data base. If not, could be a formatting error.

[msmith.tsap]

Sorry Ski, found my problem just after I posted. Next time shuld wait a little longer. Was a database problem with my ","s. Did a Find and Replace and solved my problem. Oncea again a great tutorial and end result.

Other question is how do you get leaders to change ends. Leader is on left side and sometimes needs to be on right (obviously). When I try to drag mid-grip it drops to origin at lower right away from text. Is there a "hand" on this text similar to standard text blocking.

Oh, just thought about it , and may be in your tutorial, do I need a left and right family for leader location? I will try that but tell be if I am right. Seems this could double up your text file database by doing this. But oh well.

[beegee]

One of the main improvements that needs to be made to keynotes is the default behaviour of leaders.

1. Leaders always default to left aligned. You need to manually drag them to the right using the end grip.
2. Leaders always default to "no arrow". You always need to add the arrow.


>>>Other question is how do you get leaders to change ends. Leader is on left side and sometimes needs to be on right (obviously). When I try to drag mid-grip it drops to origin at lower right away from text. Is there a "hand" on this text similar to standard text blocking.

[Scott D Davis]

To clarify beegee's post for those who might be thinking "I have to add ALL the arrows to leaders?" No, just change the properties once for leaders, and they will all switch to the Arrow. (or Dot, or Box, or Tick, or.....)

[beegee]

Yes, however, every time you create a new keynote, within a keynote family ( edit > duplicate ), you will have to select "add a leader", it doesn't default to that.

Also, each time you start a new keynote family, it defaults to "no arrow".


To clarify beegee's post for those who might be thinking "I have to add ALL the arrows to leaders?" No, just change the properties once for leaders, and they will all switch to the Arrow. (or Dot, or Box, or Tick, or.....)

[msmith.tsap]

Had all of my keynotes set up to go in 6.1. Working great!! Upgraded to 7.0 and now am having problems ! When loading file Condoc file as described under tutorial only part of my listing loads. What's up? Any help? Is this new to 7.0 or have I missed something? Should I break them down into Divisions due to size of list?

Thanks for any help, guys!

[SkiSouth]

Had all of my keynotes set up to go in 6.1. Working great!! Upgraded to 7.0 and now am having problems ! When loading file Condoc file as described under tutorial only part of my listing loads.Thanks for any help, guys!

Just to be completely clear, did you modify the Condoc.Txt file with NEW keynotes? And this modified file was working under 6.1, but now not 7.0? Or are you speaking of the original Condoc.Txt file that had a incomplete list to begin with?

[msmith.tsap]

This was an expansion of the keynote file you had started. File had been just competed before upgrading to 7.0. Had experimented with it some and seemed to be working fine. Large file but loaded okay. Seemed to add about 3meg to revit file when loaded. Notes for all 16 Divisions. Then when tried to load in 7.0 began having problems. Would not load complete file. Only would load thru Division 3.

[SkiSouth]

Thats a lot of memory to chew up. You must have spent a lot of time on this. Might want to break it into 16 divisions (create 16 keynote types) and see if that helps -

Factory any word or known limitations on note file size?

[msmith.tsap]

Have tried breaking into 16 Divisions at that seems to help. A few problems with the file being truncated when loaded. Thinking there are some size limitations that are affecting it. Any help from Revit you think?

[SkiSouth]

Email Tech support. They should give you an answer.

Have you tried partial loading? You know, don't load the entire division notes, just the ones you anticipate needing (you can always reload -like adding structural beam members). It is not recommended to load ALL of the notes (even as Revit warns).- even though the tutorial says to ignore the warning.

[msmith.tsap]

Ski,

Follow-up question from some time ago. I have used your tutorial to create keynotes for materials. Works great. However all leaders are oriented to left of text (default). When I try to drag to right side the origin of leader shifts to what appears to be origin of text block which is at lower right of text block. Thought it was my error in setting up keynote but went back to your original and has same problem. How do I resolve? Should text block origin be at center of block (or left)? Seems to be main issue of leader movement.

Marc Smith
mss.tsap

[SkiSouth]

Will check it out. Kinda covered up right now.

[Alvin_Alejandro]

THIS IS GREAT.. THANKS SKI

[SkiSouth]

THIS IS GREAT.. THANKS SKI

No problem. You are quite welcome.

[crarchitect]

Hello Revit Users,

I am setting up the office on the CONDOC type keynotes. I have a few critical questions to the whole operation:

What is the GROUPS function of the shared parameter file, and where does the shared parameter file need to live? (server vs. local machine) Is this how some folks broke the notes' catalog in 16 divisions?

Anyone using Master Format 2004? Any tips regarding how the fourth set of numbers in the new number format as it relates to specific product call outs would be much appreciated. Do we include these numbers in the CONDOC?

What is the best way to link a data base to the CONDOC.txt file? The chiefs want a dbase driven keynote.

Several questions, pardon the barrage. But, I have been trying to get the office to use this great type catalog driven feature and I need a little help from the experts out there.

Thank you very much!

[aaronrumple]

Keynotes is an area Revit really needs to improve.

I've set up ours which is more or less based on condoc and am tasked with the job of making it condoc masterformat 2004 compatible.

Just using generic annotations isn't a perfect long term solution. The factory is going to need to add more to the system. It will need to:

Allow of importing a database (Excel).
Export to a database.
Link to a database.
Allow for simple and condoc type notes.
Allow for quick searching/filtering of a list for keywords. Right now scrolling through the long list of families is time consuming.
Needs to be organized in a hierarchy.
Needs to be aware of view/sheet relationship.
Needs to tie into into information embedded in families (tags) as well allow stand alone notes (annotation.)

I'm going to try and look at the API to see if I can get something that works a little better than what we have now...

[crarchitect]

Aaron,
Thank you for listing the exact requirements so concisely.
The keynote's Sheet Awareness is the Holy Grail around here.

What do we need to ask The Factory?
Isn't this a pressing issue already?
Can we assist in getting this pulled together?

I need to get us up and running in MasterFormat 2004 immeadiately. Is anyone currently using this spec? Any tips are very much appreaciated.

Thanks again Aaron, for a perfect summary on the keynotes issue.

[SkiSouth]

Need to add control of leaders (arrow head, followed by leader line, with text justified by leader direction) to Aaron's list. The API isn't what I want. One reason I left Acad was having to program all the time in lisp versus drawing....

[aaronrumple]

The API isn't what I want. One reason I left Acad was having to program all the time in lisp versus drawing....
Exactly and it is still a kludge.. I just need to get something better very very soon.

[bimologist]

I am reading this thread with interest and trying tosort things out since Revit is VERY new to me, and we are figuring out implementation in our office.

All our office project have keynotes/Condocs. We have a home built routine in ADT which allows you to select a note from the list (each project has its own list due to variety of projects in office) and then place it with a simple QLEADER with the NUMBER only at the end. It manages a text file and adds notes to it that the user either manually enters in the dialog or copying from one bidpack to another. IT only shows the list of notes applicable to the sleected bidpack or click on the full list to show the full list.

I am trying to find ways to implement this in Revit. We just switched to MAsterformat 04. We just decided to use the ##-####-@### format.
I just reprogrammed our routines in ADT to work with this new format. The biggest hurdle to revit is being that not able to easily add keynotes. In Autocad The notes are not anything SMART or linked to objects, they are basic MTEXT objects. Now once the DEtail has been noted, WE run another routine that generates the legend for EACH sheet. i.e. it looks at the sheet and select the notes in it, and only put the numbers/description there for the ones present on that sheet. The biggest difference we have from other users out there, that the Alpha character is very critical to us. It represents BIDPACK. what bidpack a certain material is being put in. Since we work on very large multiphased projects , this is our lifeline to keep things straight.
here is a description:


The nomenclature of a typical Condoc Keynote is as follows:
e.g.: 09-2200-A003 3-5/8" METAL STUD
The first 6 digits, refer to a Section of the Specifications.
The following alpha character refers to the specific Bid Pack,
i.e., in this example, Drawing Release "A". The suffix "003" is
the specific indicator for a particular item, material, etc.
Therefore, the suffix "003" would denote the same item in Section 09-2200,
wherever indicated, regardless of referenced Bid Pack.
Various Condoc Keynotes occur on each sheet on which those specific
notes are applicable. Where notes are missing from a specific drawing,
refer to the Master List of Condoc Keynotes; All Condoc Keynotes applicable
to the project are listed on the Master List.


The list that is generated on the sheet is broken up by bidpacks and divisions
here is an example from an older format system, the idea is the same


BID PACKAGE # B
03300 CAST-IN-PLACE CONCRETE
03300B-005 CONCRETE FOUNDATION WALL. SEE STRUCTURAL DRAWINGS.
04200 UNIT MASONRY
04200B-012 FILL VOID SOLID WITH GROUT.
04200B-021 6" SOLID CONCRETE MASONRY UNITS.
BID PACKAGE # C
03300 CAST-IN-PLACE CONCRETE
03300C-002 DOVETAIL SLOT.
03300C-005 CONCRETE FOUNDATION WALL. SEE STRUCTURAL DRAWINGS.
04100 MORTAR & MASONRY ACCESSORIES
04100C-001 COMPRESSIBLE FILLER.
04100C-002 WALL ANCHORS/MASONRY TIES. SEAL WHERE
ANCHORS PENETRATE FLASHING.

I am trying to find some info and see if the API can allow me to build something similar in REvit. The original code is in LISP so I need to rewrite everything in VB.

In anycase I wanted to throw this out what I want, just in case someone from Adesk is reading this thread. WE could easily do our details in Acad n stuff but this negates the purpose of switching to Revit.

[SkiSouth]

Man, I haven't seen a black background in 3 years!!! :grin:. And Welcome to AUGI.

Congratulations on changing to Revit. Smart move. Now to your problem. Going API to me defeats the idea behind Revit. -Kinda like making Lisp do what Autocad should have from the beginning.- Got three projects with various things due tomorrow so, can't think straight right now. Maybe someone else can point you in the right direction, but I will get back to you with some ideas (hopefully.) It will take a fairly disciplined approach in Revit (versus your anyone can add anything approach), so I don't anticipate an easy or expedient answer.

[bimologist]

thanks much for reading and atleast willing to help. I know I am asking a lot, but your family approach seemed very cumbersome to do (not your fault, revit issue) the leaders etc , adding to the file manually etc. That is why I was thinking the API approach. Can anyone atleast point to me where I can find details on the API etc. AS I said We just recently purchased our copies and have made the commitment to switch. I just need to come up with a relatively equal ease of use on the Keynoting/CONDOCs since we use them very extensively.

[SkiSouth]

. I just need to come up with a relatively equal ease of use on the Keynoting/CONDOCs since we use them very extensively.
If you do, I think we'd all be interested.

[PeterJ]

How are contractors responding to receiving details like that? I try and encourage people to abbreviate what the reference is to, so each leader might read (in UK spec format) "M60/215 Spec item" so that people can at least understand what they are loking at without referring to a bound document or some dense notes.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with by way of API.

[lalvarez]

Very nice tutorial Ski, thanks.

I have just one question regarding the Keynote Legend. Is it possible to have the Division & Spec Section Headers in the Keynote Legend? For Example, I have the Keynote, 03300.A1 Concrete Beam, 3000 psi

I want the Keynote Legend to display;

Division 03 - Concrete

03300 - Cast-In-Place Concrete

03300.A1 Concrete Beam, 3000 psi

Division 04......and so on.....

Is that possible? Thanks

[d.stairmand]

From my experience - No it cannot have these headers. It only adds the Key Value & Text to the Schedule of those Items that are tagged, as the headers are not of a tagged object - they will not be on the schedule

[info678080]

Burt'o
do you have a sample shot of how your results look?
cheers

[sfmcg688875]

VisiSpecs now has keynoting integration with Revit and your Specs! Manage keynotes in Microsoft Word or Revit with spell checking, tree views, comments, search, filters, etc. Easily filter your master keynote list to match your spec sections being referenced. Check it out at www.chalklineinc.com.