Grade a Site without a Surface

[Iceberg]

So my direct supervisor does not want me to create a surface for every project.

My question (and there my not be an answer) is how can a grade a site (commercial project for example) using the tools and label styles in Civil 3d to save time instead of creating polylines and using mtext/ blocks for labels.

[BlackBox]

That entirely depends on the complexity of your plans production requirements, specifically what information is shown in plan, profile, section, etc... More information is needed.

Perhaps you could also clarify what about making a Surface is causing an issue for your workflow?

Cheers

[Iceberg]

So typically what happens is I am given a markup from an engineer that contains a bunch of random spot shots to grade out a commercial parking lot. So I will have maybe like 30 pavement shots over an entire parking lot. When I have no or maybe 1 pavement elevation for a curbed island it is hard to generate my fault lines to define these areas correctly. I can throw in feature lines as breaklines for the contours but it still will not completly create the surface correctly.

Basically all of my label styles from curb spot shots to labeling utility structures are based on a surface. Typically profiles are generated only if it is required by the municipality. Most of our submissions contain, grading and utility design with profiles and sections needed as required. For the application in question this required a Wet Pond, an Infiltration Basin, site grading and utility design.

I am told it takes to long to generate a surface when one is not needed and that drawing in polylines for contours and using regular text for labeling is faster.

[BlackBox]

I am not in a position to stand up for you, and communicate what is or is not advantageous for your employer to owners, so please take from this what you like....



So typically what happens is I am given a markup from an engineer that contains a bunch of random spot shots to grade out a commercial parking lot. So I will have maybe like 30 pavement shots over an entire parking lot. When I have no or maybe 1 pavement elevation for a curbed island it is hard to generate my fault lines to define these areas correctly. I can throw in feature lines as breaklines for the contours but it still will not completly create the surface correctly.


Not uncommon, but you *should* be receiving enough information from engineer to complete the design task... For parking lot, I should think that minimum high & low points, and/or an established SOP for minimum % fall along flow lines, and side slope to grade the lot to edge of pavement would be identified. Just my experience.

Less, and less, I kick back some form of "More information is needed" to the engineers here... They're coming along nicely. LoL





Basically all of my label styles from curb spot shots to labeling utility structures are based on a surface. Typically profiles are generated only if it is required by the municipality. Most of our submissions contain, grading and utility design with profiles and sections needed as required. For the application in question this required a Wet Pond, an Infiltration Basin, site grading and utility design.

I am told it takes to long to generate a surface when one is not needed and that drawing in polylines for contours and using regular text for labeling is faster.


Your method seems quite simple, and easy to implement, given accurate data on which to base the surface... It's all about GIGO.

I'd venture a guess that the individual who stated such has absolutely no idea how Civil 3D works. However, the complexity of the site *should* dictate. If the site is really, really simple, maybe? It is just _so_ much more work to manually update everything after-the-fact when a change comes in. I just cannot see the cost savings, given the additional time later alone.

You can model your parking lot with COGO Points initially, and then derive edge of pavement elevations from your basic surface for bull-noses, islands, etc. and simply OFFSETFEATURE to account for curb, sod, etc. if needed. To think about having to manually draft that in Profile View and Section View is laughable given the simplicity of actually using the expensive software they've already purchased for you to use.

Cheers

[tntdraftsol]

I am told it takes to long to generate a surface when one is not needed and that drawing in polylines for contours and using regular text for labeling is faster.

Granted I don't know you and it is hard to pick up on sarcasm through written digital media, but I hope you are kidding. :shock:

For one thing, and I am sure you know this is that if you use polylines for contours, you will have to draw out each elevation. That right there should be the time killer (in my opinion). When I grade parking lots, feature lines and points are my best friends. If I am understanding you correctly you are given spot elevations across the whole site? wouldn't you use those spot elevations to draw feature lines (breaklines) to create the surface? I maybe missing something, but if you did it with just polylines, and the design changed you are having to change each polyline elevation and redrawing that polyline to get the slope you are after instead of opening up the elevation editor for a particular feature line and changing the incoming or outgoing slope, the elevation of a particular vertice, or using the other elevation tools for feature lines. All of this is not even mentioning having to make sure you keep up with your mtext contour labels and make sure they get updated when edits are made. So in my opinion to answer your question, using the feature lines and points is more efficient than drawing polylines and using mtext block labels.

[Iceberg]

Granted I don't know you and it is hard to pick up on sarcasm through written digital media, but I hope you are kidding. :shock:


I am very sarcastic yes. But sadly in this case I am dead serious. This was actually sad to me.

[BlackBox]

I am very sarcastic yes. But sadly in this case I am dead serious. This was actually sad to me.

... Sad to me, too. :p

[Iceberg]

The problem is the design doesn't have enough detail in it to model the TINN correctly. I might get one spot shot for a curb island and then the island on the opposite side that's like 30 feet away wont have any spot grades. So I model my fault lines off of the spot shots I am given but its just not enough to model things correctly so I spend time fudging things to get a surface that looks good but might not actually be accurate.

Since I use a label style to label my Top of Curb and Pavement elevations I don't use COGO points. I use feature lines with elevations to determine those elevations.

Would adding these cogo points to my surface add any additional purpose that my feature lines are already doing?

[BlackBox]

The problem is the design doesn't have enough detail in it to model the TINN correctly. I might get one spot shot for a curb island and then the island on the opposite side that's like 30 feet away wont have any spot grades. So I model my fault lines off of the spot shots I am given but its just not enough to model things correctly so I spend time fudging things to get a surface that looks good but might not actually be accurate.

Since I use a label style to label my Top of Curb and Pavement elevations I don't use COGO points. I use feature lines with elevations to determine those elevations.

Would adding these cogo points to my surface add any additional purpose that my feature lines are already doing?


Okay, let's backup a bit....

Firstly, you don't have to use COGO Points, but they are useful depending on your situation.

So you're given a markup with a small handful of critical elevations. Presuming you already have some 'dumb' linework which was used to produce the exhibit engineer marked up in the first place, create some COGO Points at those locations (snap to linework where prudent). Create a new Surface, and add said points to same. You now have a basic surface that hits all of the critical elevations (you may need to flip some faces, etc.). Create another Surface, and paste the original Surface as a starting point (presuming you've correctly flipped faces, etc.).

You can now convert your edge of pavement lines for islands, and bull-noses to Feature Lines, and derive their elevations from your Surface (either at this point if done en-mass). Then select your Feature Lines and use the content (right click) menu to add them to your second Surface as breaklines. You now have a proposed Surface that correctly hits all critical elevations, and 'drapes' your edge of pavement linework.

If at this point your draped edge of pavement linework is incorrect, you've either not received enough information from engineer (which you can now show them via Object Viewer; nuh uh, see here!), or you've done something wrong... Go back to where you messed up.

With you edge of pavement lines now correctly draping your critical point Surface, you can use the OFFSETFEATURE Command to account for flow line, face, and back of curb, and then use raise/lower to account for sub-grade if needed.

HTH

[tntdraftsol]

I am very sarcastic yes. But sadly in this case I am dead serious. This was actually sad to me.

you have my sympathies. Like Black Box said, spending all that money on a complex, highly sophistcated tool and using it as a door stop. That is sad.

[Iceberg]

You can now convert your edge of pavement lines for islands, and bull-noses to Feature Lines, and derive their elevations from your Surface (either at this point if done en-mass). Then select your Feature Lines and use the content (right click) menu to add them to your second Surface as breaklines. You now have a proposed Surface that correctly hits all critical elevations, and 'drapes' your edge of pavement linework.

If at this point your draped edge of pavement linework is incorrect, you've either not received enough information from engineer (which you can now show them via Object Viewer; nuh uh, see here!)

This is exactly what I've been doing. So the answer is to use the software, but what I need to do is work with my engineers to find a better approach so that enough data is entered to generate the surface correctly.

Thanks guys for the input. I had a feeling that this was the correct way but wasn't sure if there was any work around that others might have done.

[cdatechguy]

Thought with Civil 3D you could easily update/modify a surface on a whim without having to recreate a surface after each change like we did with LDD? Perhaps your boss is still in LDD limbo....as I was told a lot not to create a finished surface...but I did anyway because it was faster than doing it manually. Perhaps that is why I was let go? But then again, all my projects were precise and never had issues.

Glad I work in Architecture now...

[BlackBox]

This is exactly what I've been doing. So the answer is to use the software, but what I need to do is work with my engineers to find a better approach so that enough data is entered to generate the surface correctly.

Thanks guys for the input. I had a feeling that this was the correct way but wasn't sure if there was any work around that others might have done.

The only other way you could model the parking lot 'more'? accurately, is to create an Alignment for each 'direction' the parking takes, and the required Profiles, then grade it using a Corridor where the Assembly used is located at the edge of pavement, and includes curb & pavement design, making sure that each Corridor Region's Assembly targets the adjacent Alignments... But that, to my mind, is still a bit more work up-front, despite being a bit less work down the road if you make drastic changes to the parking lot layout.

The other advantage here, is that you can also more easily generate sub-grade surface, etc. for volume calcs, etc. without having to raise/lower all of your Feature Lines (in a separate model?).

Good luck!

[maporter]

Wow! Definitely don't want to make light of your situation, but I thought I had problems just trying to get engineers to understand some of the quirks of C3D labels occasionally. All the advice you're being given here is exactly what I would do. I have some painful experience with trying to work with someone that thought drawing contour lines was how to design surfaces. Not a productive way to work with C3D.

Get really good at working with feature lines and you can probably create the surface faster than they can get their comments back to you on why it would take too long to do it correctly. :)
Good Luck.

[Civil Samurai]

Wow, I feel like I've been sent back a few years listening to the direction "management" is giving you! I agree with the approaches and advice you've been given and will say that if you don't have enough information to fill in every single spot elevation/slope needed on the final plan then you need to request more from the engineers. If you've been given all you need, utilize feature lines, surfaces and dynamic surface labels then there's absolutely no way it would take longer than using static polylines and text unless this is one of your first projects utilizing those tools? There is a bit of a learning curve to know how much or how little information to enter to get what you need for the end product. If this is a one-and-done design (when does THAT ever happen?) and if you're not familiar with the tools then MAYBE it'd be a close contest, otherwise game over LDD and it's mindset.

Good luck as you move forward. I don't know what your employment situation is but be careful not to get stuck at a firm that will not allow you to grow your C3D skilset as it can hurt you down the road.

Mike
Project Designer
Farnsworth Group, Inc.

[brent.moses391365]

Its a tough time dealing with issues like these. I was hired to help my company move forward with C3D but NONE of the Automated workflows have been incorporated into the design process since they adopted C3D four years ago! Each sheet is done piece by piece, simply for the fact "it doe not create a Quality product", and yet they still gripe their process is not efficient enough.

Best wishes!, you are not alone in this struggle!

[Steve.Mazza676743]

The problem is the design doesn't have enough detail in it to model the TINN correctly. I might get one spot shot for a curb island and then the island on the opposite side that's like 30 feet away wont have any spot grades. So I model my fault lines off of the spot shots I am given but its just not enough to model things correctly so I spend time fudging things to get a surface that looks good but might not actually be accurate.

Since I use a label style to label my Top of Curb and Pavement elevations I don't use COGO points. I use feature lines with elevations to determine those elevations.

Would adding these cogo points to my surface add any additional purpose that my feature lines are already doing?

If the design information given to you is not sufficient to build a TIN, then it's not sufficient to draw contours either. At least, not MEANINGFUL contours. You can draw lots of lines and make them look pretty and then find out later that they make no sense at all.

So that means, in your manual workflow, you are either filling in the blanks yourself, or you are leaving the blanks blank and the plan reviewers aren't catching that fact.

If you are filling in the blanks of the design in a manual workflow, then you can do it with the automatic tools as well. (I say automatic, but we all know that they require plenty of human direction.)

If someone gives you 5 spot shots for a parking lot, why not just put an AutoCAD point at each one, turn them into a surface, turn on the contours, and print it out for them to mark up the fine details they want? This would take, what, 20 minutes? If the spot shots are for the top of a curb island, just subtract the curb height and model the basic shape of the lot, and then add in the islands with feature lines after the shape and drainage is settled.

The contouring, spot labeling, and profiling features are the most bare-bones and simplest parts of Civil 3D and they replace the most tedious and mindless part of the job. So why would you avoid these parts of the software? I think there is a major information disconnect between your supervisor and the program capabilities.

It is true that the final product takes some extra work to make it look nice and crisp. It may not be worthwhile to model every little jog and smooth transition in the surface so you have perfect looking contours on your plan. If that is the case, the best workflow in my opinion is to model everything in Civil 3D first until you feel that the returns are diminishing. Then simply extract the contours and fix up the messy parts. This should really be along the lines of adding arcs and transitions - not moving contours. If you need to move contours around to get the result you want, then either your spot shots are input wrong, or you need additional points, or the designer didn't design what he or she thought. In which case, it's time to talk it over and do some QC.

[MMccall]

My workflow is similar to what others are doing. (which is what I came here looking for, How is everyone else doing this?) I use a 'design surface' to model the basic drainage pattern for the site and paste it to the 'final surface' (these surfaces are already in my template file and pasted together, they're just empty). The point elevations I get from engineering are added to the design surface as surface point edits. Feature lines are made from the curb face polylines, then stuck to the design surface for elevation and then pasted to the final surface. Grading off those feature lines adds the curb faces and infill fills the simple islands. (grading objects added to the final surface) At this point it goes back to engineering for a rough grading check. After that check, and revision, the final surface is further refined with additional spot elevations as needed, further grading objects, or even a polyline at an elevation to smooth out a jagged contour. Contours are labelled and spot grades a added a surface labels.

Drainage structures and pipes are added once the design grading surface is ready as some of the key spot elevations are the locations of those structures. Empty drainage networks are already in the template file with all their layer, labeling and surface reference in place. Sanitary sewer networks are handled the same way with an empty network setup in the template file. The network settings can only hold one set of default settings so I decided to put empty networks in the template.

So far its been working pretty well. Right now I'm waist deep in a 25 acre shopping center, 1000+ parking spaces, 58 drainage structures and 15 sanitary sewer manholes. My process is not as refined as I'd like it to be but its getting there. I have yet to venture into the pressure networks yet.

[remi678731]

Interesting thought. LDD had some processes that Civil3D has even thought of getting to. In some ways it was so much better C3D is a step back to the stone age