model space or layout space

[jim.dobinson]

Four years ago I retrained from drawing on the board to using AutoCAD 2000 to enable me to stay in work, I may add at this point I was 54yrs old, and with 35 years experience in producing drawings on the board in most disciplines of Civil and Structural Engineering.
My learning curve was fast and with a combination of books,college and support from colleges I can now hold my own with most Cad Technicians except for a few grey area's.

In all my experience so far the accepted way of producing Cad drawings is to draw 1:1 in Model space and create dim/text styles to suit the scale of intended details drawn in Model space and then in Layout area create Viewports to suit scale of plans and details. The end product is that in Layout the drawing can be read with all the details at the required scale and that all the text is at the relevant size no matter what the scale the details, example- 2.5 text on a plan @1:50 is shown at the same size on a detail @ 1:20. This is as a result of using scaled viewports and not by placing all the text for respective plans and details in the Layout area.

During my working life I have worked for a number of large Consultants and in all cases where AutoCAD drawings were produced the Cad manuals all stated that all plans and details that constitute the finished drawing shall be drawn in Model space at 1:1 and that text should be placed in model space and scaled to suit relevant details.

My problem now is that I have just started at a new consultants whose has a head office in Belfast, Ireland. with two other regional offices. I have the position of Senior Cad Technician in one of these regional office. The problem is that the company Cad Manual states that text for all drawings should be placed in the Layout area of the drawing which is totally opposite to which I have previously experienced, as noted above.

Part of the brief for new position with my company is that I have to ensure that all the Cad technicians are all singing from the same song sheet. I have managed to talk to some of my new colleges and the general census is that they have preference to using my previously experienced method of detailing the text and not the company way.

I have also spoken to my opposite number in one of the other regional offices and he said that he uses the Layout text method because some clients require a 3D Model of the projects it is easier to integrate the drawing into 3D model drawing area. I would have thought it would be alot easier to just switch off the layer in Model space that you do not require and then export the required outline to the 3D drawing.

I am sorry for the lengthy script to explain my query but I felt it was the easiest way. I need some comment from some you long term Cad people to help me decide if I have cause to make the efforts to change new situation to one of what is excepted as being the most accepted and productive way of producing an AutoCAD drawing in the Architectural and Construction industry

JIm

[jaberwok]

Hi Jim.
It's generally "horses for courses" but, naturally, you do what the client/employer wants.
From choice, I put only geometry in mspace. All notes, dimensions, labels, etc. go on the layout. Acad is still getting better at making this practical. For example, if you do it right, you need only one dimstyle regardless of vport scales. I only moved to this way of working since A2002 and since making all geometry in 3D.

HTH

[sinc]

I think it also depends to a large extent on what you're doing. Different disciplines have different needs. And sometimes, even within the same discipline, labeling in one space or the other is distinctly preferable for reasons that may not be obvious at first.

It also seems to depend to some extent on what vertical products or extensions you are using. At least with 2004, many of the bearing/distance labeling commands in Land Desktop don't work correctly in paper space, and must be used in model space.

Some companies make rules like "All labels must be placed in paperspace" without really thinking about them, and cause themselves a lot of problems because of it. However, some companies HAVE very carefully thought this through, and decided on that rule for specific reasons.

The best thing to do would be to find out WHY they have that rule. Also consider whether it really interferes with productivity, and keeps you from doing (or makes it much harder to do) anything you need to do, if you are just used to a certain way, and want to keep doing things the same way out of comfort and habit. At the very least, this will help you get your arguments straight if you want to try and change things. Standards battles at large companies can be very draining and thankless, and sometimes they can be more effort than they're worth... :?

[Glenn Pope]

Hi JIm

Please note that I have moved this thread from the AutoCAD General forum to this one. I believe it would be better suited here.

[Glenn Pope]

Check out this thread. It may be of some help.

Dimension in paper space or model? (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=4741)

[charlie.bauer341340]

The question I've had to ask is; am I going to use this drawing as part of another drawing either as an xref or a WBlock. If the answer is yes and the text and dimensions are necessary I put them in model space. If the answer is yes, but only the geometry in need in the other drawing, I put them in paper space. If the answer is no I place them in Paperspace. In paper space there is no need to calculate the size of the text or dim scale. This limits the opportunity for mistakes.

[robert.1.hall72202]

To throw another wrench out there:
I do mostly 2d work so I made up a set of titleblocks and insert them as blocks
into model space. I then create named views of each titleblock so that I can
set up the layout tabs. This allows me to create a multiple page drawing sets
within a single cad file. I use the layout tabs to publish DWF files.

[charlie.bauer341340]

My work is 2d, sometimes I may have a 4,000,000 sq. ft. campus, to put this on drawings I layout the campus in model space at 1:1 and create different layout tabs to section up the property so details about different buildings are legible. This may entail different plotted scales for different tabs, by placing text and dimensions and title blocks in paper space I have to have blocks for different scales. Since the express tool change space, if I need to show a block in model space I just drop it down and Acad takes care of scaling.

[iawegian]

I like Charilie Bauer's quick synopsis of how to make the choice. It works well, as there are always reasons when the 'rules' need to be bent.

Similar to JIm.Dobinson, I"m a bit older than the norm, and am now learning CAD to do more than just plotting drawings because I didn't have staff available to do it when the project had to go out the door. I used to direct the MEP group of a small consulting firm, which was 'grown' from the Civil / Transportation side. Needless to say, there's just different ways to skin cats, but in consulting, it all has to be done fast, efficiently, and with no tolerance for errors.

Now I'm at the University of Illinois, creating a projects design group in-house. We have a separate records management group, with entrenched guys having grown from the Civil side. Believe it or not, standards on 'how' we do things aren't there yet. These forums have helped immensely in educating myself, as well as lobbying for a particular point.

JIm, I'd be interested in knowing how you fared.

Thank you all for keeping the discussions going!

[kennet.sjoberg]

My problem now is that I. . .
Jim,
I have used CAD-CAM since 1980 and have used several, and seen many software’s coming and goes.
There has been many ways to do things, not always, but often there is a plotter in the end.
My first contact to AutoCAD was AutoCAD R2.52, but that was absolutely nothing that I used in my profession, no no, I used Hi-cost software and hardware that need special rooms and security.
10-years later when AutoCAD still was cheap, company’s started to by R11 and use it like rhall described, except the layout function (please, no hard feelings rhall ).

Gradually the high-cost systems went out and the low-cost system went in, even for me.
Today 25 years later and with 60 ADT2006 license in my hands, I do fully agree with you.
A model must be in natural size (1:1), no faked scaled details, no "hand drawing" all objects must connect if it is meant to be, and coordinates of building, bridges and road objects should correspond to the world, and if 3D you must not fake.
You newer know if your data later on goes to a lasercutter or a geodimeter, and who pay the mess ?

Well, when the model is correct you sometimes must deliver to a plotter, what media is in the plotter ?
A1 841x594 is common, well, create a sheet in the layout with that size.
But my model is much larger than a drawing ? Yes, cut a hole(viewport) in the sheet and set the scale, rotation and layers.
That is the main thing, now comes the secondary, the hairstyle, text and dimensions.

Drawing frame, drawing head, drawing regulation text, in the drawing = Layout.
The model can be xreffed in to many different drawings, so no labels, text or dimensions in the Layout that pointing at the model, the model object can move or disappear.
Hmmm.. that means that all text and dimensions must bee in the model ? Yes, you have layering,
but if the model must be free from text and dimension? just separate in to two xrefs, ( but you lose the dimension association ).

Now to the sticky part, how can text and dimensions get the right size in modelspace and shows up correct in a viewport ?
I have created a lisp with a dcl there the user select a legal scale in multiples of 1, 2, 5, 10, 100 and 1000. It create dimensionstyles, text size and hatch parameters in one click, this is really an issue that Autodesk miss. . . .

When the model is correct, the Layout is set proper, and text and associative dimensions do work in right manner, this "low-cost" program is very handy and safe.

Jim, make power of your standpoint.

: ) Happy Computing !

kennet

(sorry for my bad grammatical typing )

[LanceMcHatton]

Jim,

While I agree with how you have been doing things, I would do it their way for about a year to try to understand why they do it that way and also to show that you are a team player. After that, you could bring it up again and start discussing it with your counterpart(s) in the other office(s).

I feel very strongly about standards. However, on issues this big, I hate to see things so black-and-white. Everyone should try to compromise and find a controllable grey area to work with. But, again, wait about a year to confront this issue. No one likes a new guy who starts questioning everything. :)

[G_Sarver]

Jim,

I have worked for a number of years in model space with the notes, dims, titleblock all scaled accordingly around a 1:1 graphic. For 2D drafting this seemed to be the easiest way to handle everything. As the company I worked for moved into the 3D model environment we experienced the need to move things to paperspace to enable such things as clipped views and hidden lines.

Around six months ago I assumed a position in a new company where it was my duty to streamline the CAD environment. Prior to my arrival the only thing that the only thing in paper space was the titleblock. All objects, notes, dims, etc. were drawn in model space. Inconsistancies in dimstyles and ltscale caused horrendous looking plots. Personally, I think it depends on what ease of re-training users and what is most productive. I could go either way on which is better. However, one thing I am adamant about is that if you use the ms/ps environment rather than strictly ms. Place all notes, dims, etc in paperspace. That way you only have one, or at least fewer, text/dimstyles. IMHO.

[kennet.sjoberg]

...you only have one, or at least fewer, text/dimstyles
that is not(noob) to recommend.

: ) Happy Computing !

kennet

[ch33tah.2011]

Jim,

I work in the Civil division of a consulting firm in Brisbane and we find that management of text and dimension styles a snap. While we do have more than one style and have dimensions and text in Model Space we use 1 base style, creating copies of it for the various Paperspace Scales. To create these different styles we only change the overall scale on the fit tab of the dim style manager.

Hope this Helps

Ashley

[patnemo]

Jim,

I work in the Civil division of a consulting firm in Brisbane and we find that management of text and dimension styles a snap. While we do have more than one style and have dimensions and text in Model Space we use 1 base style, creating copies of it for the various Paperspace Scales. To create these different styles we only change the overall scale on the fit tab of the dim style manager.

Hope this Helps

Ashley

I did the same thing, & then saved the styles according to scale
archdim 1-8 (96 scale)
archdim 1-4 (48 scale)
archdim 1-2 (24 scale)
you can also then drag them to the tool palette, & it will create them w/the correct scale & on the correct layer automatically.

[Detsenira]

Your preference will dictate your will on this matter. That is why I don’t see any official rules on Auto-CAD saying that all geometrical figures or object shall be on M-space and all Labels, Notes, Dimensions and T-blocks on the layouts as John B’s. Saying on His reply to Jim’s issue in other words “If you are thinking what dress you are wearing to a party, consider what type of party and the weather forecast in the area”.

I have a bad experience when I finally finish all the working sets of drawing and ready to send the whole sets in the plotter and my boss decided to send him a copy of the same sets into Windows Metafile .wmf to be exported to the Power Point for presentation. That is were I experience a pain in the neck because I don’t know how to export the whole page including all the labels, notes and multi-views for the details including some pages w/ attached and overlay x-reference.

But I finally made it and if anyone is interested how I did it, please send me a line.

Ted (Holceste25)
Auto-CAD 2005 user