Billing rates for Cad techs

[J-G]

Do any of you have information (or links) to the average billing rates for CAD personnel? I would like to know what end I am in in as far as billing goes. I am looking for low, mid, and high skill level rates. Any response would be appreciated. I looked at the AIA salary survey a few years ago, but if I remember correctly it didn't specify what companies were actually charging clients.

At the moment I base the billing rates on a yearly budget (salary + overhead + profit), and am billing at ~$50 an hour for workers with high skill level, and ~$42 for an intermediate CAD tech. For consultants time there is a 15-20% markup. Are my figures below or above the averages?

We do residential work, and it often seems that we are more expensive then other firms, (some people don't seem to mind charging next to nothing for their work).

Thank you for the input.

[bclarch]

Your billing rates seem to be generally in line with what our firm charges. (I don't feel that I can be more specific than that without the owner's OK.) Although I might be wrong, I do believe that construction related fees and costs are greater in your neck of the woods.

There are other factors that are not apparant to a potential client that might make your fees appear to be high even if they are realistic. Your competition might be lowering their overhead by working out of their house, not carrying professional liability insurance, etc. etc. They might also treat some things as reimbursible expenses that you include in your fee. The most likely answer is that they produce less complete drawings and leave it to the contractor to work things out in the field. We run into that one all of the time.

What you have to do is look at how your competition operates. Then you can discuss with your clients the distinction between value and cost. What do they save if the architect's fees are $2,000 lower but they end up with $10,000 worth of change orders during construction? You have to make them understand that they are probably not comparing apples to apples. We are often told that we are "more expensive" than the other architects that our potential clients have spoken with. In reality, we are not more expensive than other architects that operate at the same level of professionalism that we do. That is the key thing that you need to make potential clients understand. Not that its easy. :roll: :(

Luckily, we remain busy enough that we do not need to be too worried about the jobs that walk out of the door based on raw fee comparisons. Our feeling is that an unprofitable project is likely to have just as many, if not more, headaches than a profitable project so you may as well get paid for it. Good luck and don't give up the ship.

[hand471037]

I'm reading a *wonderful* book on design firm business that I feel should be required reading for every designer everywhere.

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/096754775X/103-1534580-5214201?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=IBNKIM1FIEXDF&colid=HG9V50EE4WNU

It makes an excellent point about jobs that loose money: That, in essance, when a job looses money you're taking a loan from your future. So it winds up being doubly expensive, for not only are you loosing money now, but you're also going to have to work twice as hard in the future to get back to where you were before you took the money-loosing job.

By setting your fees so that you, and the client, both win (rahter than just the client winning and you loosing) you're actually serving the client better, for you'll have the money to actually serve the client comepletly; rather than being forced to cut corners and put the burden on the client or the contractor. If you can make your client understand that by paying a little more now they will save a LOT more in the future, and back that up with real numbers, then you'll be a lot better off in the long run. Those who are willing to 'take loans on thier future' to get the job today probably won't be around tomorrow anyhow.

[J-G]

Thanks for the replies,

The cost/ competition is something that seems to be a continuous problem. We do set are fees realistically, and we are staying busy, but some work definitely goes to other less qualified firms. That seems to be the nature of residential work. Everyone is bargain hunting, even when they are building million dollar + homes. We have had people use us as a design firm and then have the plans drafted elsewhere. It is always unpleasant to see how fast someone who has no aesthetic or even functional feeling can screw up a beautiful design, but these people have rates we can't compete with. They prey off of the public's ignorance...after all "plans are plans." We can't compete with that, but I do like to feel out other firms, so I know whether we are in the high or middle range.

[gregcashen]

Our firm bills CAD work out at $45-$55/hour, depending on who's doing it. CAD Tech = $45, drafting done by the Design Engineer = $55. I think you are in line with us.

The real question is, what do you have to pay the person who is getting billed out at $45? If you have a guy that you pay (benefits and everything included) $30/hour and he gets billed at $45, your spread is $15, but if you can find someone who you only have to pay $25/hour, a 17% decrease in pay, you make $20/hour, or 25% more. So it really pays to keep your expenses down like Jeffrey talked about.

Then you have to factor in the drafter's (modeler's?) productivity...if anyone has a good way to test someone's competence in drafting, let me know, as I would like to be able to at least make the case to my boss that our drafstman needs training. There seems to be a wide spread between the skill levels of CAD drafters, but the pay tends to be in the same range regardless. How do other people find this?

I saw that the AU handouts included a CAD proficiency test, so I downloaded it to compare my Autocad drafting skills against the surveyed results...I was surprised how slow/inefficient/unknowledgeable the majority of these cad techs coming out of AA programs are. I felt it was quite a straightforward test, but the results showed a large percentage of people not even being able to finish in the time limit given! I think finding those at the high end of the scale would be worth paying a lot more, knowing that, though you are billing them at a higher rate than others in your area, you are still able to get stuff done faster and make more money.

[PeterJ]

these cad techs coming out of AA programs...

Does that work in a "hi, my name's Bill and I'm a CAD technician" sort of fashion? There are UK employment agencies that have tried to devise CAD tests to demonstrate to clients what technician was worth what, but the work varies so much that a basic test cannot do it justice.

I worked for a time with a guy called Pete Woods, one of those true backroom technicians, wore narrow ties, called everyone cat, listened to coool jazz. He made the office a more interesting place and was a whiz with concrete framing and trad construction methods. His best work was by hand but he was good with AutoCAD R12 too - as we were at that time. When we started working on a series of steel framed buildings Pete was all but lost and to some extent worked himself out of a job because his charges didn't mesh with the fees we were getting. I offer this as an example of how testing is fairly clumsy becasue a knowledge of the construction techniques is as valuable, if not more so, than outright drafting speed.

[beegee]

Here's how we calculate time charge rates:-

1. Establish Required Gross Revenue. This is the Total Annual Expenditure plus allowance for future expenditure ( Accrued leave, Sick leave, Capital expenditure, Interest on owners funds and profit on turnover )

2. Calculate Income generating time. ( Available Working Days. Time spent actually generating income ( avail working days less management, admin, marketting, promotion, prof development etc etc. ) For example, a junior architect or tech might have 1150 hours per year.

3. Establish Charge Relativities. This is entirely subjective. Clients expect that charge rates for principals will be higher than for technocal staff, on the basis that the Principal can make important decisions due to his experience and qualifications. Thus its necessary to assess the value and benefit to the firm of each member of the staff to establish relativities.

Based on an index of 1 for the most junior employee, a Principal of a small firm may have a relativity of 6 to 8. In the absence of other indicators, annual salary packages may be used as an indicator.

4.Calculate the Charge rates using weighted times. For example:-
Can't format in post... see attached.

[gregcashen]

[quote:ea1c43a493="gregcashen"]these cad techs coming out of AA programs...

Does that work in a "hi, my name's Bill and I'm a CAD technician" sort of fashion? There are UK employment agencies that have tried to devise CAD tests to demonstrate to clients what technician was worth what, but the work varies so much that a basic test cannot do it justice.

I worked for a time with a guy called Pete Woods, one of those true backroom technicians, wore narrow ties, called everyone cat, listened to coool jazz. He made the office a more interesting place and was a whiz with concrete framing and trad construction methods. His best work was by hand but he was good with AutoCAD R12 too - as we were at that time. When we started working on a series of steel framed buildings Pete was all but lost and to some extent worked himself out of a job because his charges didn't mesh with the fees we were getting. I offer this as an example of how testing is fairly clumsy becasue a knowledge of the construction techniques is as valuable, if not more so, than outright drafting speed.[/quote:ea1c43a493]

Absolutely agree. But even if someone has a good knowledge of how a building goes together, they might be a complete sloth with CAD. I, for instance, would not recommend a hire who was a construction expert but who had no CAD training or was simply inefficient in CAD. It is my experience that users that are not motivated to get better at CAD/BIM/whatever -- to learn the programs in-depth -- will not become efficient users of CAD software. They will click icons all day long and slowly toil away at a drawing. I want someone who knows the building AND how to use CAD efficiently to draw/model it.

In the example of the CAD profiency test I mentioned, it was pathetic how slowly some of the testees (not testes, beegee) completed the test. All the building knowledge in the world couldn't save them.

[J-G]

Thank you for the replies. Beegee thank you for the attachment. It looks like you are using a more involved method for billing rates...the idea of factoring the a relativity is interesting.

Greg, one thing that I have been doing to compare the productivity of draftsmen is to keep track of their time and the category that the time was spent on. Since we do residential work a project is typically handed over to one person to do the majority of the drafting. This allows for some comparison, but since every project is different it isn't perfect. When I do a proposal for a new job I base it on the time (and actual cost) for similar projects in the past. If there are specialized items required for preliminary design review by regulatory agencies or misc other considerations I tract that time separately. I started keeping detailed records of time to help with proposals, but it can also help in judging productivity rates. I basically feel that if employee "A" can finish a job - accurately - in less time then employee "B" they should be proportionately paid more. The cost of our plans should remain the same either way.

Experience is definitely an important factor. Someone with construction knowledge who "knows how to put things together" is going to work fast simply because they can solve problems and draw things right the first time without as much hesitation (if you are constantly marking things up there is going to be a loss), but there is also a "speed" factor. When I watch some guys they seem to just be in a sort of comatose state as they slowly, but steadily work...one guy was actually dosing in front of his computer screen :roll: ...we had a contractor in the office at the time who saw him and promptly startled him. :x

[beegee]

Jonathon,

The relativities I mentioned can be used to factor in productivity either as a multiplier or in terms of paid salary. They can also be used as a comparison with other firms or " industry best practice".

[PeterJ]

Good model, beegee. I'm intrigued that the salary/revenue ratio is 1:2.. I don't think it is like that here. It would be closer to 1:2.5. That may be an anomaly of being a one man band of course so the staffing costs for my secretary are relatively higher than if she were supporting two ir three productive staff, also work I farm out goes down as an overhead rather than a salary, perhaps I need a closer look at that.

P

[beegee]

In the example of the CAD profiency test I mentioned, it was pathetic how slowly some of the testees (not testes, beegee) completed the test. All the building knowledge in the world couldn't save them.

Just hang loose Greg. Oh and cough once please.

[WATTSAIA]

I have been wondering how others bill out as well, with more efficient CAD productivity really translate into an hourly? With Revit, I find my productivity increases from 4 to 10 times over ADT. I rather sink my time into increased design development.

I have lately skipped trying to bill hourly, but I take my overhead and costs of doing business and bill my clients on a dollars per square footage basis with adjustments for degree of complexity, change in scope, etc.
I am finding my clients like this because they can easily see what my ultimate cost for the project is, and I do not need to justify my billings.
I then bill based upon % of completion of my work.
I am always looking for a better system ....comments?? :?:

[J-G]

Hi Donald,

I may be wrong, but I believe that the majority of firms bill out on a percentage of construction cost (or at least many of them). This is something that I have been looking into as well because there is usually a direct correlation between complexity, construction cost, and design fees. We have found that often our fees are around the 3.5% to 5% range when it is all said and done, but that too varies. Sometimes the schematic design with clients has been a huge cost, and for that reason my boss keeps it strictly hourly. Our work tends to be unique and complex, so it is something that is hard to estimate. An hourly billing schedule seems to be the clearest to me because we can be clear on what our costs are and directly charge the client for those costs...but I am sure that many clients wonder if you are accurately charging them...it is ends up being a trust based system which I am not entirely comfortable with.

Billing on a percentage of construction cost could potentially give us higher profit margins if we set it up right, but I have head complaints with that system as well. The Owner may feel that you have interest in increasing the cost of the project to increase your fees, and a hard construction cost isn't know until the project is bid, and if the project is cost plus you wouldn't know the actual cost until the project was finished. I am thinking about doing a cost plus fee with a guaranteed maximum price (based on a percentage of construction cost), that would be similar to some construction contracts. Also if a firm got Revit organized to provide close estimates you might be able to get decent projections as the project continued, but how do you factor in complexity if you are doing highly custom work?

Since I don't have a great system for accurately billing based on construction costs, we are still billing hourly.

[PeterJ]

I invoice smaller projects on an hourly basis, but advise the client what to expect to pay on a stage by stage basis and define quite tightly what they will get for the money. This way on the small jobs I can avoid a %age-of costs-fee that becomes and all risks package and which can then appear an unrealistic fee to the client. I find I make more money this way and win more jobs becasue people see where the value for money is and realise that I am not charging them to cover issues that may not arise.

On larger jobs we often do the design work on a fixed fee basis with an incentive that would typically be related to floor area. That way if they get more footage I get more money and we both benefit. My developer clients are generally very happy with this arrangement. I might offer a fixed fee on the Production Information stage and then run the construction stage on a percentage basis. This spread approach seems to work for us. It has the real advantage of taking our risk out of the design stage in cases where clients brief us too loosely and then need lots of help but allows us to offer real visible value in the remaining stages - those where in the majority of cases we can batten fown our liability.

[ita]

I find that by properly costing hourly base rate, cost rate and charge rate from quarterly accounting figures lets me know what it costs to run my practice and what I need and my people need to be charged at to run a profitable business. I find that by providing clients with a fee budget at each stage of the project, they understand what the end cost should be - even though I charge my time on a profited hourly fee.
My issue with most % based or lump sum based methods of fee charging is that I have to guess what my involvement is going to be. This can be OK providing the project goes according to plan – but most projects vary from the ideal to some degree. It is that variance that becomes the loss in most cases and the occasional profit windfall in others.
I find that these approaches do not make the client responsible for their actions in the project process on the contrary. "Irresponsible" clients often feel that any time they change anything or delay in making a decision it is part of the fee and their design advisors can wait - the "I am paying your bill!" approach. That is not a process of managing your business - you are the one being managed.
My experience is that many people in the building design industry do not charge for this lost time and wonder why they loose money on a project. I find that when I tell a client that 70% of the time/cost budget has been expended and we have only covered 40% of the work under that section - it is interesting to see how quickly decisions are made and those repeated requests for changes are almost eliminated.
I also get the client to sign off on the work completed (every time) and to accept in writing the signed off work is the scope of work for the next stage including associated time/cost budgets. When the client changes something significantly, the scope of work is redefined; the client pays for the cost of the changes - until the project gets back on track. This way the client is responsible for their decisions and our role is to assist them in achieving their objectives. Otherwise we are the bunnies sitting on the top of the hill in the moonlight (in the crosshairs) doing all the work, and not getting paid for the effort.
Lump sum and % fees leave our clients open to abusing the goodwill of their design professionals. For example.
In % fees when a client reduces the project because of changed circumstances (i.e. change of budget or brief or even abandoning the project) how do you charge for the change of scope? How do you charge for abandoned work? How is this costed effectively without the client feeling that the fee should be discounted if the project continues in a lesser scale of size? With lump sum fees, how do you define the change of scope, how do you charge for the changes? etc
My business rule is to properly manage and cost my business expenses and overheads. It is essential to know what income you want to produce for you each year – given that you know what you are paying your people; diligently manage your fixed overheads and your variable overheads separately, forward plan and budget your project workloads etc.
I use an Excel spreadsheet, which is updated every quarter. Using a P&L from my accounting software for the immediate previous 12 months (up to the end of the last qtr) I update my figure and check for variances in the hourly charge rate for both myself and my people. I than vary the charge rates with a client if it varies more than + or - 10%.
In other words - manage your business - properly!! Set up the systems, manage the data and use that data to charge your clients. If you're costs are too high you will soon find out - equally if you are too low you will also find out - either by going broke or by working unreasonable hours in an attempt to earn a reasonable income.
The traditional way of asking others what they charge is fraught with problems and if you thing about it carefully it is illogical. This business in the main is logical. What if they are using someone else's guess or someone else's figure that is fictitious or is not related to real costs?
Work out your costs and your profit margins and your income and you will know what your business is really doing. Otherwise it is a pure guess. Using this approach you are really working on the "what cost will the market bear" method and let me tell you from my experience the market will bear it as low as it can go - even to the point that you will the one paying a client for the privilege of doing their work - by loosing money or worse by going broke!!

Get some good books on business management and read them. Use an experienced accountant or another fellow professional who you know for fact is doing well in the business. For me the accounting approach is the most favoured. A good accountant will tell you how it really is.
It is about reducing risk, maximising return and giving yourself time to live life.

[J-G]

Well spoken. You are right about my initial question relating to "what will the market bear." We can crunch numbers to see what we need to make to get by with a "reasonable" profit, but if seems that we are generally in the higher end. We always have a client come to us saying that another architect can do it for "this much," we stick to our hourly fees, but it least me to wonder how in the world other firms can justify such costs...unless they are low balling the initial estimate with hopes of getting the job. We are lucky in that most of our clients want the design and will pay for it, but even these clients make occasional remarks about the cost.

The field of design is a strange one. Many people get into the field because they have an honest interest in architecture and creativity, but find that if they are going to be running their own shop a decent understanding in business is also needed. It is necessary, but difficult, to take time out to go over you books and crunch numbers when you would rather be designing or continuing you knowledge in design rather then finance.

[bclarch]

We often enter into an "hourly, not to exceed" arrangement. We generate a proposal which tries to account for the project's scope and complexity as well as our assessment of how difficult (perhaps I should say "time intensive") the client appears to be to work with. If the client balks at the fee we propose using it as a maximum upset price that we will bill against on an hourly basis. This gives us protection on the high side and the clients are comfortable with the fact that they will only be paying for the time that they actually use.

It helps that the clients believe that they will never reach the maximum fee. They are always certain that they can make design, fixture and finish decisions quickly and that they will never change the design in the middle of the project. They also believe that the government officials will do their very best to make the approval process proceed as smooth as silk. There will also never be a problem during construction because they got the name of a "great contractor" from their barber's cousin who "knows construction".

By the end of it all they begin to undertsand just what it takes to successfully handle a project from conception to reality. The amount of our fees is usually not an issue by that point, even if they approach our proposed max limit, because the clients saw where the time was spent every step of the way.

[ita]

Jon, does the AIA have benchmarking surveys done each or every other year?

In OZ the RAIA does a benchmarking survey every 2 years. The one for 2003 has just been released. These documents give you a fairly clear idea as to what the profession is doing and gives a starting point for you to look at your charges compared to other similar practices.

[J-G]

ita,

Yes the AIA does have salary surveys, but it has been a few years since I last look at the one it published. I would think that they may have released another, and I should look at it again. In the past we did find that we were generally in line with what we were paying people, but it didn't detail billing rates, and profit figures. This information would be interesting to us as well, because if you had a general survey of other firms profit margins and overhead you could get a better clue as to how efficient your office really is. Some other firms are way below what we charge for sets of plans, but their quality level is much lower and requires more on site admin by the designer. I just find the fact that there are so many firms out there who can do work for such low prices unbelievable. It is a case where the information reported by the AIA's report doesn't seem to match up with what people are actually doing. I believe that the variation is due to the difference of quality, and this is something that in my mind does a disservice to everyone involved. Almost anyone can do a cheap set of plans to get a project through the building department, but is this what architecture has digressed to? At least in the residential market architects are extremely undervalued. People want cheap, and so they get cheap ugly buildings because if the designer actually spend time designing and thinking out the details the cost of the service would be more then most are willing to pay.

Sorry for the rant. This is just something that continues to bother me...at least in the US. We have many people who will sacrifice design, and personal, integrity in order to make a buck and lower there prices.

[ita]

Jon, the design market is driven by two things - fear and ego. The fear equation is about not having work and then when you have work geting "it done" and getting paid.

The ego equation is about having a project - whether you make it pay or have enough money in it to do it reasonably well is irelevent. I have had fellow designers boast that they had blown their fees in the design phase and that they would finish the project because they liked the client and/or the job was fun!!!

What they don't understand is that in these cases they have devalued the market and every other player in the field has had their value debased. This has plagued me for a long time until I realised there was little I could do about it. However there was something I could do that would make a differnece.

1. Step one was to call my colleagues on unreasonable (low) fee levels and bring it into the open. I am still doing that by giving my cost management spreadsheets away so others can cost thir buisiness properly and realise what they should charge related to their costs and income.

2. By changing my focus onto being a facilitator for my client to achieve their outcome. This way I am not focussed on the design or production but on what my client needs to achieve their outcome/dream/solution - whatever. That way the client is happy to pay reasonable costs (that can be justified) because they see me as an indispensible part of their outcome. That way I get reasoable time to design and document well because the client endorses the action. In other words I work alongside my clients - not in front of them. There is a hell of a difference and that differnce makes the difference.

3. I always state clearly what I charge per hour and provide an estimate budget for each step of the journey (not for the whole project as it invariably changes) the client then knows their commitment for the next stageof the work. When that guesstimate changes because of the client's actions, requests, change of brief, scope etc, I notify them of the change of scope and that cost are chargeable for the time involved on their project because of the changes. Never a problem.

4. By providing distinctive managment and design solution I become different from the herd. My clients know they get the best advice and that I support my commitments to them. It is personal and focussed on their solution to their problem - the project. :idea:

When you look at your client as the cash cow and the design and production as the Auto Teller Machine - then costs and cost rates become an issue - because they are the issue to you and by default yout client. :cry:

Make your client special and you become special to to them! :lol:

[J-G]

Thank you for your reply ita,

Your thoughts are well spoken and valued.

[beegee]

Ita wrote :
.... Make your client special and you become special to to them

Hi Ita,

Sounds as though you've done one or two of the PSMJ courses. Or was it RAIA Threadbo ? Either way, I found them good value. They do promote a particular mindset. Frank Stasiowski can be quite entertaining.

[ita]

Hi beegee, nah I've done none of those!!

What I have discovered is that most in the building design game treat their clients as objects. When you treat a client like a person and develop a relationship based on truth (no matter what) project issues and fees get resolved with little hassle.

[ita]

beegee, what I haven't said is that I choose who I have as a client. If I don't feel I can work with someone - I won't. That removes a big portion of the hassles. I'd rather enjoy the project than pay the price.

[bclarch]

Unfortunately, I believe that the problem of other firms undercharging for their services will always be with us. When young architects decide to strike out on their own and set up a practice they often take on projects at whatever price will get them the contract. They figure that they can always make money on the next project, or the next, or the next... Even when they eventually go out of business there is always someone else who is just starting out who is willing to work for nothing until they go bust.

There are also the members of our tribe with questionable professional ethics that are willing to take advantage of clients by churning out projects on the cheap with poor documentation and then abandoning the clients to the mercy of the contractors.

Part of it is how we are conditioned as students. Getting used to working overtime for nothing by spending long days in the studio grinding away. Going to work as an intern for slave wages. One of my classmates even went to work for an internationally known architect for FREE just for the experience. :shock: Go figure. If a person doesn't see the value in their own professional skills, how can they ever ask someone else to value it enough to pay them for it?

So, as I said, I think it is an endemic problem that will be with us for some time to come.

[edev1855]

Good discussion guys. Here is a resource I use from time to time to see how we compare to other firms in California. http://www.managementdesign.com

[Kirky]

Jon good topic and some excellent replies which given new thought to my own billing.

One of the things I try to do for each client on the outset is to create a spreadsheet of the probably cost to the client. I try to include all likely costs from approval fees, to a contingency amount and make sure to include the probable cost for all professional fees.
Within the spreadsheet I express each item as a percentage of the total cost (not just the percentage of the building cost). By doing this the client can actually see and compare where their money is going and make a better consumer decision on where to spend it. For example they can directly compare a probable cost for glazing as a percentage of the total probable cost compared to what they may spend on schematic design or anything else for that matter.
Essentially this becomes a shopping list for the client which I encourage
them to be actively involved in the process. If a client wants to reduce your fee, what they are really asking is to reduce overall cost. Usually a budget can be achieved with out the need for you to be first the first on the list. Do you really need a fossil in every natural stone hand cut floor tile?

If they do remove or reduce something in the building list, my fees readjust automatically via a predetermined logarithmic formula. If they add to the project my fees increase by the same mechanism.


By presenting the costs in such a manner I have found that very few people try to reduce my fee as a method of cutting the project cost and subsequently I don't need to reduce my fee without an actual reduction in the scope of work.

Your final agreement can be a mixture of hourly rate, lump sum and percentage regardless such a cost comparison will help to guide you to an actual charge and accurate scope of works.

[PeterJ]

what tools are you people using for tracking your time?

[beegee]

what tools are you people using for tracking your time?

BILLQUICK (www.bqe.com/index.html)

It can be glitchy, but I only use it as an electronic timesheet.

We use MYOB for the Billing/ Accounting side.

[Kirky]

Hi Peterj

Quickbooks Pro accounting software which has a stopwatch timer. You simply select the service/item and client and it then becomes part of your accounts.The service, time, date is then listed on the account if required. It also has a portable timer component which others can use and then plug back in. You can also set up a budget on a project by project basis and compare actual time spent. Works really well, won't do everything,
but because it is main stream easy to get your business manager up to speed.

[beegee]

Hi Kirky,

How does the stopwatch cope with posting to Zoog, while waiting in a phone queue for the Townplanning Dept ?? ( J/K )

[ita]

Hi Kirky, thanks for the comments on your billing system. I use Quickbooks and the timer also. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Great system - flip flop between clients and the phone ringing and the drawings are . . . . whatever they are doing! . . . but it make my monthly billing a 30 minute job including printing and posting accounts and statements. Plus I ge to see overdue accounts or billings not invoiced - bbecomes my business reminder. 8)

Kirky - fascinated with your spreadsheet method and your alogrithim for + and - work. Always looking for new ways to assess the finacials of a project. :D

[Kirky]

Beegee,
I am really impressed and congrats on achieving the highest number of posts, but would you really want to count the time spent here? I think it would scare your boss! (if you have one) Lets see, 1202 posts by average of 5 mins = 6010 mins = 100 hours or about $12,500 worth of Billable time. :lol:

[christopher.zoog51272]

$12,500 worth of Billable time. :lol:

Begee, you can just make that check out to me.

What..... you didn't know this was a pay site? Read your EULA again :wink:

[Steve_Stafford]

Stop no wait, better double that...he spends much more time working his posts out!! :shock:

[beegee]

Beegee,
I am really impressed and congrats on achieving the highest number of posts, but would you really want to count the time spent here? I think it would scare your boss! (if you have one) Lets see, 1202 posts by average of 5 mins = 6010 mins = 100 hours or about $12,500 worth of Billable time. :lol:

Kirky,

You trying to get me fired or what !!

Don't be surprised if this entire topic just happens to completely disappear off the board before he gets back from lunch. :veryevil:

[Kirky]

Sorry Beegee,

Don't worry if get the boot, I ll give a job, but just don't expect an internet connection. :lol:

[rhys]

I'll give you a job AND a broadband connection you'll need it we're in the UK and I guess your commute time would be a bit long without it. :lol:

[PeterJ]

Rhys, I don't think we can afford beegee. According to posts in another threads he earns two hundred grand a year and ploughs in excess of 10k a year back into playing zoog. They may be a Australian and American dollares respectively, but it's still more than you or I would pay.

[beegee]

But Pete, its the cost v productivity gain. Same argument as used to "sell" Revit.

C'mon I'm worth it.

[J-G]

Peter,

I use a program called bigtime from edison's attic. It is excellent. It manages your projects and employees. You can track by phase and category. You can define things however you want. It is basically a database with a web UI (so it can be used across the network, or even online). When I start a task I just select the project, phase, and category (just type in the first couple letters and press tab), then I hit start timer and work. When I am finished I stop the timer and click save - the entry is made and appear in a time list below. The way I have it set up a typical entry would read, "Smith Residence, Design Development, Drafting and Design: Floor Plans". The UI is really pleasant to use. The nice thing is that when the week is done I just submit the time sheet where it waits to be billed. You input billing rates for employees before hand in their HR page, so the rates are computed and an invoice is printed. It also links to QuickBooks. I can't recommend it enough, there are too many features to write about.

[rhys]

Peter
Perhaps he's got a younger bro or sis, a sort of cheepee-beegee :)

[PeterJ]

Perhaps he's got a younger bro or sis, a sort of cheepee-beegee :)

beegee-lite or perhaps Robin Gibb

[beegee]

beegee-lite or perhaps Robin Gibb

Hey!!!!!
on behalf of the brothers from Brisbane I strongly resent that.

Anyway Robin had more musicality than Barry and Maurice put together.

:veryevil:
http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/download.php?id=1037

[PeterJ]

I can't believe that it's taken since 11 May for someone to get under your skin like that.

Still if it had to be anyone I'm glad it was me that took the obvious bait.

[beegee]

Sorry, .... I've calmed down now.

Its just that the BEEGEES ( note caps, not lower case ) are an important cultural icon here.

We even built an airport runway over where their house used to stand, just to commemorate it. Now, every time a Jumbo lands, " Stayin' Alive " takes on a deeper meaning.

[Kirky]

Hi Beegee,

if you are looking for "deeper meanings about the brothers Gibb" this link might cheer you up.

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/health/35128/3/collapsed/5/o/1

[beegee]

No Kirky,

Didn't cheer me up at all. Just made me worry about why you would be hanging out in a site like that. :roll:

[PeterJ]

Is that an important cultural icon that you have appropriated? Weren't the BEEGEES, if you insist, born here?

[beegee]

Say it ain't true !

I'm going to smash my vinyl copy of "Saturday Night Fever" !

Probably change my username as well. !!

[PeterJ]

Jon

The bigTime package...that's $900. It looks interestring but is far more costly than i can justify. Besides my accounts run on Sage which may be UK specific but certainly isn't supported by BigTime or any of the others I can see.

I just upgraded to a newer version of Sage, though I don't think my bookkeeper has even installed it yet. I'll see what they can offer by way of bolt ons or whether the timesheet functionality is even in there as it stands.

For now I use something called TimeCore its freeware and outputs CSV or Excel format as needed so it is possible to link stuff into other software.

[J-G]

Peter,

Yes the BigTime packages isn't "cheap". In the US it seems that a lot of smaller firms use QuickBooks, so having it sinq with that program is a big plus. I justify the cost becasue it I can track time for use in stats, and since it saves so much time when it is time to do invoices.

[PeterJ]

I'm sure the cost is easily justifiable. No doubt by the same arguments I made when upgrading the accounting software we use.

Quick Books is available here but is less market specific and since both my book-keeper and accountant are familiar with the product we use I see no reason to change. I only ask the question becasue after a period when I have let accounting for hours slip somewhat I want to get it back on target before I make some decisions about the business. I think all our hourly projections are still based on AutoCAD assumptions and the speed of my former assistant and that's not right.