Interesting worksets observation

[patricks]

I recently set up worksets on a fairly large project model so that I could get help in finishing the construction documents. I decided that this time around, I would create as many worksets as I could think of to help increase flexibilty with multiple people working on the project, and I ended up with about 10 or 15 user-created worksets.

Eventually I realized that worksets can be thought of like layers. Several times I found myself needing to turn off some of a particular type of element, but leave other ones turned on (like bleacher risers and treads in a gymnasium, but not have the bleacher structure visible). So I would just create another workset and turn it off in that particular view. It worked pretty well, as it allowed me to also turn off things like floor elements used for the site plan (for sidewalks, etc) but still have the building floor visible in the floor plan.

What do you all think, has anyone else used worksets in this way?

[ejburrell67787]

I would say that what you are doing should really be possible using Object Categories rather than Worksets.

My impression of worksets, having been using them for a short time now, is that the fewer the better really. They seem to be designed to allow the project to be cut up into workable chunks rather than sheet specific display manipulation as you are doing.

Of course if it works that way for you then great!!

Elrond

[PeterJ]

I think you are right Elrond.

Marty Rozmanith has indicated that worksets were a first hit at project sharing and that the element borrowing functionality is thought of by the developers as being more elegant and effective and is likely to be the thrust behind future development of a peer-to-peer project sharing system. The other things you can do with worksets are an added bonus but you shoudl be able to achieve the same functionality by using subcategories when you define your models.

[Mark Vorstenbosch]

Hi .I have used worksets ones before and yes you can look at it as a type of layering system.It helped me to break up the project up so more the one of us could work on the project meaneing i would be able to work on the walls and someone else could do the columns and floor etc.this way we got the project done in half the time.but also realized that to many users can make it a very difficult thing to work with. workset are a very nice tool to use if you know how to use it.

[Phil Palmer]

Workset 'Borrowing' is the best way of runing any workset project by far.
It saves so much time in asking people to relinquish the whole workset by saving back to central etc.
Just grab the bits of the model you NEED to work on and only borrow those objects.
This way you dont even need to request permission at times from another user if everyone does it this way.
Its simple !

[ejburrell67787]

Phil - Thats all very well if you are all on a direct connection to the server (or central file location wherever that might be)... however, when working remotely through VPN, even with broadband, its too slow if you keep borrowing, even without needing a request to be granted. In this case the best thing to do is check out as much as you can get away with without snookering anyone else!

Elrond

[Phil Palmer]

I still thought it was practically impossible to work remotely via. VPN and am amazed you can do this. You must be very organised with your co-worker(s).

This MUST be accomplished eventually by the Factory so that we can work remotely as fast and straight forward as we do at the office. Remote working is the way a lot of us want to work now and Revit has got to sort this out.
Whether it be collaborative working with different design disciplines (with the next Revit flavours soon to be with us) or just the idea of me being able to work from home with my broadband connection.

The users here complain at the speed of saving to central on our LAN.

[ejburrell67787]

Seems to work ok to me... maybe 'cos I wasn't aware there was a problem it never came up for me! ;)

...it would be nice if a request to borrow something popped up a dialogue box on the other person's screen so they knew there was a request for them to grant/deny...

Elrond

[Phil Palmer]

Seems to work ok to me... maybe 'cos I wasn't aware there was a problem it never came up for me! ;)

...it would be nice if a request to borrow something popped up a dialogue box on the other person's screen so they knew there was a request for them to grant/deny...

Elrond
The idea of some sort of notification pop-up wuld be good and has been asked for many a time.
I even suggested at one pint that Revit should use maybe MSN messenger as a way of doing this.

With regard to you not having problems with VPN connections and worksets is good to know. I have never even fully attempted this recently.
Are you pushing 'large' files this way ?, our standard type of Revit files will vary from 50Mb up to 1 project that is touching 150Mb in size and I just haven;t tried anything that big as it seems to take long enough saving on our network alone.

[Phil Read]

Three really critical guidelines I've found keep users out of the weeds with regards to Worksets:

1. Worksets are not "Layers". Think "meaningful chunks of the building" (Core, Exterior, Interior 1st Floor, Interior 2nd Floor, etc). Not doorknobs. Not Chairs. Not Windows.
2. Avoid opening the central file. Just drag/drop from central location to workstation.
3. Enable Elements - Not Worksets. Just take what you need as you need it. A keyboard shortcut for "Enable Elements" is helpful.

I've found that with few exceptions when users mind these three guidelines using Worksets become very managable and transparent.

All the best -

-Phil

[Joef]

There is a problem that crops up occasionally in Revit. That is making things not appear when they are not wanted. For instance a foundation plan that has the interior basement partition walls showing. How do you get rid of them? You cannot turn off the walls as then your foundation walls turn off as well. Most of the advanced users will tell you to use worksets. This adds a lot of overhead to the single user. What solution would the factory recommend to this problem.

Joe Feldman

[Phil Palmer]

That so true Joe,
There has been many a time I have just enabled worksets in a project to help me with various 'quick' display issues.
I suppose they may suggest the use of phases and possibly design options but this is also another level of complexity.
I have always thouht we need the ability to have system walls on various sub-catagories as a prime example to give us more visibilty control at times.

[ejburrell67787]

I should clarify that while I have said we have no problems with VPN / worksets working - it does take a long time (30 - 45min) to save back to central with a 40+ Mb file. And similarly reloading worksets, borrow elements etc can take a few minutes depending on how much information is involved. This does mean planning around saving times abit and doesn't allow for so much flexibility.

I just saw this as more of a general problem with transfering large amounts fo information over the internet, but perhaps Revit could be set up better to support such working methods.

Without Wall Sub-catagories being available, worksets do offer the most flexibility for display options. Phases are too limited by their chronological nature, Design options I don't know.

Elrond

[Phil Palmer]

I should clarify that while I have said we have no problems with VPN / worksets working - it does take a long time (30 - 45min) to save back to central with a 40+ Mb file. And similarly reloading worksets, borrow elements etc can take a few minutes depending on how much information is involved. This does mean planning around saving times abit and doesn't allow for so much flexibility.
Elrond
The time delay is the most worrying part of this process and relies on a very good VPN connection I would imagine. Our office network has 'blips' now and again that seem to create us the occasional problem.
The other thing to consider is 45 mins of Someones time waiting for the save is just so costly.

This is what i was trying to say before - it works but the way it works is just not truly viable for large scale collaboration on relatively large projects.

[ejburrell67787]

Yes - it is time costly. I save to central when I am taking lunch or finished for the day etc whenever possible... but it would be hopeless with a larger project team where others need quick access to the changes.

Perhaps it is quicker if only the essential worksets are ever loaded? Our worksets are across the whole project (Eg structural frame, external shell, party walls etc...) but they might suit us better if they were for example everything of the model in the SW corner or Block A, Block B etc... I guess a bit of experimentation is needed. Someone with several large projects on at the same time needs to try different methods of defining worksets and see what is the most efficient...

Elrond

[sbrown]

I am curious if anyone knows wether Element borrowing increases STC time vs. checking out entire worksets? While I like the functionality, I'm beginning to sense that people aren't planning what they are going to work on and the process of borrowing pieces and parts is causing the central file to work slower, much slower, than I'm used to. I used to think that the STC would go very quickly if you just checked out a workset, did a bit of work to it, then STC. Now that I may check out pieces and parts from multiple worksets and so may others, the central file seems to take longer to save when reconciling these changes than it did if the same elements had been modified but had all been within a specific checked out workset. Its like the librarian, if you checked out all the books in the fiction section in order and returned them in the same order it would only take the librarian a minute to put them back in the right place, but if you got one book from each section, fict, non fic, magaizine... it would take her/him much longer to put them back in the right place.

[Phil Palmer]

If anything Scott, I would have said it has speeded up STC's recently.
it would be nice to hear an 'official' answer to this from the Factory - anyone ?

I will have to revert back to the old way of checking out and do some tests when I remember

[sbrown]

I originaly thought so to, but our project STC have slowed to a crawl and I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out why, we are basically just picking up redlines so the work is sheet by sheet and so the element borrowing is my only culprit.

[patricks]

I think you are right Elrond.

Marty Rozmanith has indicated that worksets were a first hit at project sharing and that the element borrowing functionality is thought of by the developers as being more elegant and effective and is likely to be the thrust behind future development of a peer-to-peer project sharing system. The other things you can do with worksets are an added bonus but you shoudl be able to achieve the same functionality by using subcategories when you define your models.

What is this subcategories thing you're talking about? I see in Object Styles where I can define a new subcategory of the different families (walls, floors, etc.) but I don't see a Subcategory field in the instance properties of walls, floors, etc.??

For example, I might make a "site" subcategory under floors, but then how do I assign a floor element that is an exterior sidewalk to that Site subcategory?

[PeterJ]

System families do not support sub-categories. This is a wish list item.

[patricks]

System families do not support sub-categories. This is a wish list item.

so then if I have a plan where I want to see the floor slab, but not the floor elements outside that are the sidewalks, etc. then my only option is to use worksets, right? I tried setting the view range depth to an offset of 0 on the associated level, and then moving the sidewalk 1 inch below the finished floor level, but it still shows up in the plan view. :(

[ejburrell67787]

Yup, worksets would be the best way to approach that. Might be useful to set up an 'External works etc' type workset and stick everything on the site and footpaths side of things in it.

Elrond

[papurajx]

That so true Joe,

I have always thought we need the ability to have system walls on various sub-catagories as a prime example to give us more visibilty control at times.


This has been my Wishlist item for quite some time but nobody seems to appreciate it and support me in this. Will the factory look into it seroiusly, this time around.