Self-Taught or by others?

[bbacker]

I had posted here in the CAD Management forum about 3 months ago about being thrust into the position of CAD Chic (my unofficial title). I finished my ADT class just a couple of weeks ago. We barely even scratched the surface of ADT.

Now, I have been put into the position of Software Support Chic. But I know one class does not an expert make. So my question is...

Are you self-taught or did you seek outside training? If outside training, what type of training? And...did you use a nationwide ATC center? Who was it?

If you are self-taught, which book did you use? Do you feel it covered your needs? I purchased the Paul Aubin book on ADT 2005.

I called Imaginit this morning and wasn't too thrilled with the response I got.

Thanks for any help or insights!

Bridgett

[Robert.Hall]

Depends on how important it is for you to know CAD inside out..........I attended a vocational school for a CAD class. I walked away with over 400 hours of experience.
Definately better than any CAD training course, and even better than any CAD class
I had taken in college.

I just took a one week catia class and by no means am I volunteering my time to
create models. I am guessing any similar AutoCad training would teach about the
same.

[bbapties]

i took drafting/acad at a vocational school as well... two year class in high school... one of those deals where you go to high school half day and then vo-tech.....

but then I went into construction (framer - general contractor) for about 5-6 years and then went back to cad and self taught myself back into it.....no books, just the help files and really just doing it.......i think thats the best way to learn, jump right in.........you'll either sink or swim.....at least you'll know if it is something you'll be able to handle.....

[D_Driver]

the answer is Yes...Self-Taught and by others (but not quite the way you meant)
Personally I have been working with ADT since Day 1, so most of my learning has been seat of the pants. - I will say that as an instructor I am perhaps a bit biased toward classroom training because...

Get the training. The paradigm shift you go through transitioning to ADT (or Revit for that matter) is a shift taking you away from lines/arc/circles into the realm of objects. Within this transition, you have several learning curves happening simultaniously. You have the vocabulary curve..Property Set Defintions, Display configurations, representations etc. You have the environment curve ... where to I go to tweak that setting. You have the behavioral curve ... how do those walls behave or misbehave (red circles of death), and how do they interact with each other and other objects. So training in my book is a good jump start to take you from the unfamiliar level of "I don't even have a clue what to type into the help menu to start looking for help" to at least the beginning level of "OK, I understand this has something to do with the way ADT is sending the set of instructions to the graphics card, so must have something to do with the Display Configuration or style override"
Quality of training differs widely out there. The only thing I could say here, is watch this thread, and look for positive feedback. As a trainer myself, I will say most students come to my basic 2 day class expecting to be proficient and to be the "CAD chic (or CAD dude) for ADT" after 2 days. I think (and I think you will agree) this is a difficult expectation to meet. Most trainers/training centers will offer several levels of ADT training.

Equally important to training is having a good implementation plan. The best basic 2 or 3 day ADT class in the world cannot cover everything you need to know in all cases to use all of the ADT objects and features.
A basic class should give you the fundemental ideas behind ADT - WHY does ADT work the way it works, along with some ideas of where to go when it does not work the way you think it should. Tie this together with an implementation plan that takes the implementation one bite at a time.
I suggest in my classes that students come to the basic class and then work with ONLY walls doors and windows for a simple project. Get used to the ideas of working with objects, Get through the vocabulary and environment and behavior learning curves for a limited set of ADT objects.
On the next project, add the project navigator.
on the next project, add scheduling and tags. - and maybe at this point after you have the taken a good bit out of the paradigm shift, take an intermediate or advanced class and look at nailing down the standards for the office.
This is for some offices ok, for others, they need the standards up front. The difficult task for the CAD go-to person if they are responsible for the standards is that they need to dive fairly deep in the software to understand the implications to the choices they make in changing out of the box behavior to meet the needs of their office. - that is where having a consultant at hand is a fine thing - whether a reseller application engineer, or a independent.

so...Training...Implementation plan...mentor.
when we learned ACAD we were probably surrounded by people who had a whole bunch of knowledge about ACAD. These were the people passing by your workstation that looked over your shoulder and told you how to create a block properly. As you move to the object paradigm, find yourself a mentor that can virtually look over your shoulder. I think for most firms this take the form of as you are doing, posting to the newsgroups.

As I am a trainer, I would not venture to recommend, or dis any other trainer at any time, but if you have a local users group - ask them for their experience with the local resources.

to answer indirectly your question
Each of us learns differently. what some people will just plow into with hands on works for some of us. Others are more confortable getting parts and pieces from classroom or books. You as the resource for your office need to understand the nature of the office staff. Most offices I have been in have a mix - some folks need to be smacked (sent to class) others are internally motivated and will jump in and grind away until they figure it out.



good luck on your new role as CAD chic!

[Glenndp]

I purchased the Paul Aubin book on ADT 2005.
If you have any questions that you want to ask Paul about his book, check out the Cadalyst Discussion forums (http://cadence.advanstar.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=). He is an administrator there and frequents them alot. He is a great guy and is always happy to answer questions.


About training.
I did the same as bbapties. Half day at high school, the other half at the vo-tech for 2 years. The best place would be your local vo-tech. They will give a good foundation for the basics and then some. Then you can go on and teach yourself the more advance stuff. That is what I did, with a sprinkle of classes here and there. AU or the AUGI Cad Camps are good for this.

[bbapties]

... with a sprinkle of classes here and there. ..I forgot to mention this.... I do also go to small seminars....Like the little "whats new" classes...Or like the One day Spring Training things...see here (www.cadtrainingcamp.com/tampa/classes.asp)..... they help alot to keep up with the program.....with ACAD there is sooooo much you can do its good to see the bells and whistles to get your gears turning on the best way for you to utilize it.....

[Mike.Perry]

Or like the One day Spring Training things...see here (http://forums.augi.com/www.cadtrainingcamp.com/tampa/classes.asp)..... Hi "Bbapties"

Can you please correct the above link... thanks.

:beer: Mike

[bbapties]

Hi "Bbapties"

Can you please correct the above link... thanks.

:beer: Mike
sorry..... its been fixed

[Mike.Perry]

sorry..... its been fixedHi "Bbapties"

No sorry required... no worries.

:beer: Mike

[Mamma Jamma]

Self-taught. I started with AutoCAD 2 point something about a million years ago, and I'm not even sure if anyone was actually teaching it at that point. In the beginning there was this wonderful little bible - Inside AutoCAD - that helped tremendously.
I'm still learning, of course - online tips, forums, poking around on my own. I've found that many of the "kids" around me that learned AutoCAD in school remain fairly stagnant. They learned what they learned and have no inclination to search for newer or better ways. I, on the other hand, am inherently lazy and will search out an easier way to do just about anything.

[D_Driver]

I, on the other hand, am inherently lazy and will search out an easier way to do just about anything.

This of course is the kicker... of the two main categories - early adopters (usually self motivated) and the folks that follow, I find it interesting what motivates the self motivated?

for me personally, it is much like a puzzle. When a new feature is presented to me I want to pick it apart until I know what makes it tick. - though I will admit there is the lazy component to it also...If I spend 45 minutes looking at a new feature and find that there is some aspect of it that will save me even 5 minutes a day over the year, I still consider this a success.

[tsigler]

I second Sue Lafleur's response. I also started on AutoCAD 2 and am self-taught (I had 3 years of DataCAD under my belt before switching to AutoCAD). But I have been lucky enough to have young co-workers who are adventuresome and frequently teach me new things. The give and take in our office is an excellent learning tool in itself.

I'd like to add that, for anyone just getting into ADT, a beginner course is most helpful. I floundered around thought all versions of ADT up to 2005 before getting training. I was learning enough to get the job done but not necessarily in the most efficient manner. I work for a CAD production company who has recently become an authorized AutoCAD dealer. As part of the dealer program, we have to be able to support the products. In order to do this we needed to be properly trained. I had the advantage of an excellent instructor who knew ADT inside and out. We now provide training and I even do a bit of it myself, although I am definitely NOT an instructor. The choice of instructor is paramount in your decision process. Some schools buy instructor's manuals and virtually read from them while others realize that "what AutoCAD can do" and "what you need to do" are frequently two very different approaches to instruction. If you can find a teaching center that is willing to personalize the instruction to your needs you will generally walk away very happy....and enlightened. Assuming that you have enough people to make up a class, this isn't as difficult as you may think.

[D_Driver]

You know, as I see replies trickle in, my guess is that those folks that utilize the AUGI forums and are likely to see this are in general the type of folks who are generally self motivated, and more likely to plow through things on their own.
just a thought

[Brian Myers]

You know, as I see replies trickle in, my guess is that those folks that utilize the AUGI forums and are likely to see this are in general the type of folks who are generally self motivated, and more likely to plow through things on their own.
just a thought

That's true...

This isn't the answer you are looking for (as you are looking for a "Best Education" answer) but I believe this should be mentioned. My own experience says you only learn a certain level of CAD in school...it's the same theory as schooling in general. It's enough to make you productive when you hit the work force, but a lot of training needs to be given after you take the job and hit real world problems. As a result, I'd imagine many people have been self taught.. many haven taken classes.. many have read books.. but the majority have learned via the "School of Hard Knocks." whatever they had to do to be productive. This is the real reason why we have so many bad CAD drafting habits... there is truly no standard way of learning and as a result it's what I call "Perceived Productivity" that reigns in the average office and not a unified standard way of doing things correctly and productively as we perceive it.

[tsigler]

Very true! My staff ranges from newbies to 8 or 9 years experience. They each have a style that feels best to them. I have tried to institute a standard but some are typists, others prefer tool bars and the rest seem to use whatever is most comfortable to them. So now I try to expose them to the latest advances and hope that they adopt them. I've given up trying to tell them how to do it and instead focus on what the end product looks like. As long as that is consistent, I'm a pretty happy camper.

[bbacker]

Oh yeah, I am mainly self-taught too. I took the requisite 3 semesters of AutoCAD for my drafting certificate. That was way back on R10. Co-workers will ask me how to fix problems that have occurred in drawings and of course they feel stupid when I easily fix it. But I remind them, that if there is a mistake to be made I have made it... atleast 3 times! That is how I learn in AutoCAD...making mistakes.

I am getting prices from different companies here in town that offer classes in ADT and ABS (for our engineers). My concern for myself is I need to be ahead of the game when my co-workers start asking questions. Plus I need to get our office standards set up. For now my co-workers will just need the fundamentals. We are going to take the implementation nice and slow.

[jsteve2]

Self-taught for the most part. Back in 1980 there were very few "schools" for CAD training. I found myself in the time of transition from the "drafting board" to this new and exciting phenomenon called CAD. First Intergraph (now Microstation) and then my first home version of CAD ACAD v.2.1 on a screaming 286. Things moved very fast. Green screens and then (imagine it) color CAD. Then this new item of icon menus. Changes, subtle and glaring were the order of the day. Then there were very few experts and as the years progressed, everyone became an "expert". The on-going debate was ACAD vs Intergraph (Mstation), which was healthy for the industry. So much for history.... Self-motivation is always primary. What follows is an absorption of the glut of information from all directions. You could remain on-line/on-CAD, 24/7 and still be short in skills on occasion. The immediate arena you live/work in is the most important. There are people fighting for the CAD position (CAD chic/Software support chic) into which you have been thrust. Your drive to find a better/shorter method to make engineers and accountants smile is the key. Do that and your job will remain "secure" ("secure" is a relative term in this day and age). Moments in the sun and "attagirls" will help along the way, but reality creeps in when rumors of "layoffs" and "cuts" begin to invade your world. Number one lesson is "listen" to those around you and be open to make changes in the way you have "trained". I fought making the transition from always "keying-in" all commands to the icon-oriented menu and temporarily lost ground. Pride makes you a tough competitor but can be a needless weight when it becomes necessary to move forward. Design a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door. The best to you in the coming years.

Steve Shelton
Raytheon CAD
Atlanta
DASR

ps. Take time to enjoy those NM sunsets. I came into this world in Carlsbad some seasons ago.

[Melarch]

Bridgett,

In response to your questions regarding training on ADT.

I was both self-taught and have taken instructor-led and on-line classes to improve my skills and knowledge of ADT 2005 and now 2006.

The ATC I find offers one of the best programs on training for a variety of Autodesk products is Moraine Valley Community College. I can say this because I am the ADT and Revit instructor at Moraine Valley. In addition, Paul Aubin and I are friends and he has been a guest presenter at the Chicago Autodesk Revit Users Group that I started over a year ago am serve as coordinator for this group. This group also presents ADT features and issues one meeting each quarter.

I can highly recommend Paul's books on the subject of ADT and regard him as one of the authorities on the subject.

As to the subject of CAD manager or CAD support person in your firm, this is a difficult position and you will find yourself spending more time than anticipated when your peers require help, setting up standards, templates and procedures for your office, not to mention the time and energy you will need to keep up on features and methods to make the CAD group efficient and productive.

But you will find this out on your own in short measure, if it hasn't gotten to you yet. The only way to improve your skills and refine your CAD management is to do several projects in ADT. Just remember to select projects that are not overtly difficult at first and make sure that time constraints are not unreasonable.

Mel Persin, AIA-CARUG Coordinator
melarch@ameritech.net

[bbacker]

Self-taught for the most part. Back in 1980 there were very few "schools" for CAD training. I found myself in the time of transition from the "drafting board" to this new and exciting phenomenon called CAD. First Intergraph (now Microstation) and then my first home version of CAD ACAD v.2.1 on a screaming 286. Things moved very fast. Green screens and then (imagine it) color CAD. Then this new item of icon menus. Changes, subtle and glaring were the order of the day. Then there were very few experts and as the years progressed, everyone became an "expert". The on-going debate was ACAD vs Intergraph (Mstation), which was healthy for the industry. So much for history.... Self-motivation is always primary. What follows is an absorption of the glut of information from all directions. You could remain on-line/on-CAD, 24/7 and still be short in skills on occasion. The immediate arena you live/work in is the most important. There are people fighting for the CAD position (CAD chic/Software support chic) into which you have been thrust. Your drive to find a better/shorter method to make engineers and accountants smile is the key. Do that and your job will remain "secure" ("secure" is a relative term in this day and age). Moments in the sun and "attagirls" will help along the way, but reality creeps in when rumors of "layoffs" and "cuts" begin to invade your world. Number one lesson is "listen" to those around you and be open to make changes in the way you have "trained". I fought making the transition from always "keying-in" all commands to the icon-oriented menu and temporarily lost ground. Pride makes you a tough competitor but can be a needless weight when it becomes necessary to move forward. Design a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door. The best to you in the coming years.

Steve Shelton
Raytheon CAD
Atlanta
DASR

ps. Take time to enjoy those NM sunsets. I came into this world in Carlsbad some seasons ago.

Pride is an issue with me. I can see it. But I am also open to personal preference. To me key strokes are faster but if someone wants to use icons that is fine with me. In Autocad there are always 3 ways to do the same thing. But I see what you mean. My way may not be the best.

My role as CAD Chic is finally starting to get clearer to me as I dive into learning ADT and ABS. I am here to make my architects and drafters lives easier. My job is too make their job easier. That involves keeping all standards available and easily accessed. It also involves answering questions and make suggestions on other ways of doing things. That involves the listening that you mentioned. "Your wish is my command".

And yes, I enjoy those sunsets every night. I was born and raised here and can't imagine living anywhere else. Well, maybe a beautiful white sand beach somewhere but all in all NM is it for me.

[bbacker]

Bridgett,

In response to your questions regarding training on ADT.

I was both self-taught and have taken instructor-led and on-line classes to improve my skills and knowledge of ADT 2005 and now 2006.

The ATC I find offers one of the best programs on training for a variety of Autodesk products is Moraine Valley Community College. I can say this because I am the ADT and Revit instructor at Moraine Valley. In addition, Paul Aubin and I are friends and he has been a guest presenter at the Chicago Autodesk Revit Users Group that I started over a year ago am serve as coordinator for this group. This group also presents ADT features and issues one meeting each quarter.

I can highly recommend Paul's books on the subject of ADT and regard him as one of the authorities on the subject.

As to the subject of CAD manager or CAD support person in your firm, this is a difficult position and you will find yourself spending more time than anticipated when your peers require help, setting up standards, templates and procedures for your office, not to mention the time and energy you will need to keep up on features and methods to make the CAD group efficient and productive.

But you will find this out on your own in short measure, if it hasn't gotten to you yet. The only way to improve your skills and refine your CAD management is to do several projects in ADT. Just remember to select projects that are not overtly difficult at first and make sure that time constraints are not unreasonable.

Mel Persin, AIA-CARUG Coordinator
melarch@ameritech.net

I scare my boss when I told him that I could quite easily spend 20 hours a week on CAD Managment issues. HA! While I have been given this task, I am still expected to be totally billable. I am doing my best.

It is going to take alot of time, especially this initial setup. Actually, I am excited to be a part of this colassal change in our corporate culture. The more time I spend now the easier it will be for everyone else to make the adjustment to ADT. Keeping up to date will be an issue because as I said above, I am not alotted much time during the work week for CAD Managment.

All in all, I am excited about the responsiblity given to me. My boss has reassured me that I am the right person for this task. That makes me feel better. I enjoy learning new software and am just totally smitten with ADT and ABS.

[jpaulsen]

I am both self taught and taught by others. In my opinion most classes will teach you the basics, enough to get started. The real learning comes from using the software. That can be done on-the-job at your employers expense or you can make an extra effort to work on your skills on your own time.

I started learning CAD in the 80s at a community college using Holgien (later Bruning) software. At the time it was more advanced that AutoCAD but it didn't take long for that to change. I really enjoyed CAD. I excelled in the class doing extra credit projects (at the expense of my other classes). I was also a lab assistant. I would consider the extra work effort as being self taught.

I worked at a company for one year using that software and then got laid off. My next job was with AutoCAD (v 2.6). I had no AutoCAD training at all. I new the basics of using a CAD program (line, copy, zoom, etc.). I just had to find them on the AutoCAD menu. AutoCAD was relatively new to the company but they already had 10 CAD operators, 3 of which were far more advanced than the other operators.

After working there a month, I decided that I wanted to know everything I could about AutoCAD. I stayed late almost every night teaching myself. At the time AutoCAD shipped with a hard cover book. I read the book starting at page 1 and tried everything on the computer as I read about it. Within 2 months I knew more about AutoCAD then anyone in the company and was solving problems they could not.

Soon after that we starting using DCA (later Land Desktop). There was no training available for DCA so I am totally self taught on that software.

My first formal AutoCAD training was a 2 or 3 day course for the upgrade from R11 to R12. Since then I have had the same type of training for every upgrade that my company has made.

We are now in the process of implementing Civil 3D with a small group of employees. The Autodesk course ware is very basic. It is enough information to get started. Again, the real learning is going happen after training when we apply it to projects.

[Ammon]

I think that most people will tell you they are both. I think this is necessary. I learned the basics of AutoCAD at the transition time of r13 to r14, but I wouldn't say that I really knew how to use CAD until I had a lot more experience under my belt.