Nested window families.

[adegnan]

Hey everybody. I wanted to check with you on my interpretation of using nested families for windows.

I use Andersen windows, so I'm basing this on the Andersen windows provided in the libarary.

To make a 4-section window I'd use two double casement windows mulled together. So I open up the window family template, load in a window family and place two windows in the wall and lock them together.

Now, I took the opening size and made the parametric window opening the size of my new 4-section casement window. Is this necessary? I believe it will allow it to schedule the correct rough opening size.

On the other hand, if I understand right, I can't make multiple window sizes within the same nested family. I need to save a new window family to change the size of my 4-section casement window even if the sizes I need exist parametrically within my window that is loaded in?

Thanks for the help. I just want to confirm I am doing this by the most efficient method!

[beegee]

Hey everybody. I wanted to check with you on my interpretation of using nested families for windows.

I use Andersen windows, so I'm basing this on the Andersen windows provided in the libarary.

To make a 4-section window I'd use two double casement windows mulled together. So I open up the window family template, load in a window family and place two windows in the wall and lock them together.

Now, I took the opening size and made the parametric window opening the size of my new 4-section casement window. Is this necessary? I believe it will allow it to schedule the correct rough opening size.

On the other hand, if I understand right, I can't make multiple window sizes within the same nested family. I need to save a new window family to change the size of my 4-section casement window even if the sizes I need exist parametrically within my window that is loaded in?

Thanks for the help. I just want to confirm I am doing this by the most efficient method!

Hi Abe,

When using multiple elements in a family, the most efficient method is supposed to be nested families.
However, I suspect that applies more to multiple copies than to a few instances that you would find with window combinations.
You are basically correct in saying that you cannot make multiple window sizes within the same nested nested family. This is because the opening cut must be in the loaded window family ( it will only cut once )

So, I think the loading and locking method is as good as nesting for the small number involved. You could try both and compare file sizes to be sure.

[adegnan]

So, I think the loading and locking method is as good as nesting for the small number involved. You could try both and compare file sizes to be sure.

This would make each window schedule separately, though? I want to avoid mis-scheduling windows and would prefer a mulled window to schedule as one unit.

[beegee]

Hi Abe,

The schedule picks up the Width and Height, etc, that you define as a parameter in the loaded family, so that should not be a problem.

[adegnan]

Great, thanks. I started playing with it but working with my main model, I think my laptop can't handle it. (it is the tinyest sony vaio with only an 850 mhz processor and a 10" screen). So I've gotta get back to my office to get any real work done. (Damn cast, comfortable recliner.)

At least I should be able to get some family creation done as that is not so intensive on the processor.

Thanks Beegee.

[sbrown]

Try with some of the stock revit windows, the anderson and all mfg. windows are way too complex in my opinion, they really bog down when nested and are basically over modelled. As a rule of thumb I try to create content that looks like I want in plan, elevation and 3d. and then use detail components to add the level of detail needed when detailing. The andersen windows are especially bad to try to nest together.

[czoog]

I've nested the windows all manf. without too much of a slow down. My current project has 60 or so nested double windows. But I do agree about them being somewhat over modeled. The were also modeled pre head height system parameter so they some times have issues when being copied or mirrored. I gave up using the Andersons long ago, they used to just fail for no reason on me. They also don't insert into thin walls without modification.

Scott, mind posting one of the those cool window families, I'd like to take a look at how you put it together. I'm am thinking about revamping our library to do something like this.

Z.

[Yman]

Here are some of my composite. Some are window families with the opning cut and some are without window opening cut until placed in the nested window family. I didn't realize that my windows (all-mfgs...) ones were complex. They only have there jambs, a square sash and a glass pane (unless it has muntins). I don't know how much simpler they could be. How are yours or revit any simpler? I'm not taking offense, but I don't know how to make a window without those components.

Anyhow here are some. I make them in a short amount of time and then rename when I load into project. I just haven't had time to name the way they should be.

Y

[Yman]

More window composites.

I can post more if you want. Let me know

Y

[czoog]

Here are some of my composite. Some are window families with the opning cut and some are without window opening cut until placed in the nested window family. I didn't realize that my windows (all-mfgs...) ones were complex. They only have there jambs, a square sash and a glass pane (unless it has muntins). I don't know how much simpler they could be. How are yours or revit any simpler? I'm not taking offense, but I don't know how to make a window without those components.

Anyhow here are some. I make them in a short amount of time and then rename when I load into project. I just haven't had time to name the way they should be.

Y

When I said yours are complex I did not really mean as far as modeling goes, more that the material, sub cats, parameters and file names, etc are a bit more complex than most windows, as opposed to the Anderson ones that come with a ton of geometrical baggage.


For example, your windows have individually controllable jamb offsets, a feature that is great, but I only really use it maybe 5% of the time, and it tends too confuse my newbies, etc.

I'm not saying those windows aren’t fantastic. I still use them in nearly every project we have, I love the fact that they are based on real window units from the 4 big manufactures, but I’m currently looking at simplifying and standardizing our window catalog, including materials, object styles and sub cats, naming conventions etc. I’m also looking at scott’s approach of nesting detail comps inside.

[sbrown]

Yman, the only problem with your windows I've found is when I need to delete the opening to create multiple mulled conditions, the head frame peice fails because its sweep was associated with the opening instead of the ref. planes. So basically each window needed to be fixed which I did at one time but then I gave up and started to make my own that could have the frame depth assigned for use where the finish thickness varied. Anyway they are great families and everyone should study them. I just prefer to be very simplistic in my window symbol on the plan. Anyway what I've started doing is creating ref. planes totally outside of the wall with an inset parameter so I can create a window that doesn't accidentally get associated with any part of the wall. Yes I will post some of my simple windows when I get back from the holidays.

[Yman]

I know. Thanks guys, like I said I wasn't taking offense, just curiuos as to why and you answered it. Thanks.

Yeah Scott, I figured that out about 6 months ago. I don't know how they got referenced locked to the opening cut instead of the reference plane. I was a little upset when I found out myself. I have started fixing some of them myself.

As for the jambs being able to adjust individually, I had to do that to make a composite family with mullions to get them to show right. I use that feature all the time in the windows, but that is what we do for windows a lot in Montana. I'm trying some different Architectural designs now that I'm on my own and we'll see how that goes.

Y

[sbrown]

Good deal, congrats on your own firm, you should do excellent.

[adegnan]

Good deal, congrats on your own firm, you should do excellent.

Yman you made a move on your own? Great! What's the scoop, or did I miss another message somewhere along the way while I've been pounding nails and breaking bones?

[Steve_Stafford]

Naturally Y can speak for himself...but here's a LINK (http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=924) to what he said previously...you'll have to scroll down a bit, not a lot of detail perhaps he'll share more between rounds tonight :D

[adegnan]

Naturally Y can speak for himself...but here's a LINK (http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=924) to what he said previously...you'll have to scroll down a bit, not a lot of detail perhaps he'll share more between rounds tonight :D

Grrr. I typed this whole response and hit the wrong key and lost it. Grr. Here goes again if I can remember.

Steve, thats for the link to that discussion. It was a good discussion in general besides learning what Y has been up to. Incidentally, I tried a construction management package (www.openskysoftware.com for Tracework) but it didn't quite work out for me. Looks promising for quite a few reasons though.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what Y puts together and I hope I can try it out.

Other notes--

In that thread, there was some discussion about revitcity. Well obviously we have a lot of activity and loyalty to Z's forum here. But at the same time, why do some people have the need to disrespect revitcity? Here also. (http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2047)

It is obvious that HJ went to a lot of trouble to create the site. So it is another resource for everybody. Meanwhile, while RUGI is down, we do need a place to share families right? revitcity is set up for that. Why not use the resource as it exists?

But to answer my own question about disrespect for revitcity-- it does appear from the discussion i linked above that he's used other member lists to generate his member list-- this is not truly honest, i guess. I think i got a message that i had been signed up there, i don't think I signed myself up. So maybe there is some disrespect for the dishonesty in the member list. It may have that many people on the list but how many actually actively use it?

All the same, it is a family sharing resource for everyone if we need it.

also, Z, thanks for the great forum you've given us here.

And Y, I can't wait to see your product. Best of luck.

And everyone else, THANK YOU for answering all of my questions and I hope i'll be equally helpful to you.

[Steve_Stafford]

Getting way off topic now...but, It comes down to perception regarding Revit City...initially some folks objected to the manner in which it was introduced. I think Hiroshi has made every effort to smooth that out.

Funny, but I just recently traded email with Hiroshi about this....RC definitely provides an opportunity to gain access to families that are now not available elsewhere. I do believe that alot of the RUGI and Autodesk Revit content has been placed on RC too. I think RC ought to make it more clear where content orginated from so users can determine if they already have the family from the other sources.

The last thing we all need is to have three copies of the same modern medium chair and spend time trying to figure out which one to keep.

Further, if a family started out life at RUGI and was improved along the way and shared at RC, it would be great if we could see that info too.

Hiroshi is definitely interested in make RC work for his members, don't be afraid to make suggestions toward that end.

Ed: HJ let me know that he's just added the ability to designate the source/creator of a family so credit goes where it is due...Thanks HJ! He's having a lot of fun adding the info to all the existing content now :wink: