Assoc. drafting degree?

[jvoight]

Hello, I am a drafter for a small engineering firm. We now have three drafters. The new hire says he is a semester short of getting an assoc. drafting degree from a junior college. This guy can barley use the copy command and didn't know what hatch was... As you can imagine there are a few more common tools that he is now learning from me.

The question is, is it common place for people coming out of school to know very little and be extremely slow? I have an assoc. degree also, and its been a couple of years since school, but I know I had the common commands down plus some. I did have some release 11 training in high school also.

Am I out of place by saying something to my boss, he hired him. Boss is a engineer who knows everything about everything.

This is driving me crazy. This can't be right.

Dazed and confused

[david.kingham]

Depends on the person and the school, I was pretty fast right out of school but there were others in my class that could barely pick their nose. Say something now, it's only going to cause you to do lots of rework and potentially make you look bad.

[Mike.Perry]

Hi

Please note I've *moved* this thread from the AutoCAD General (http://forums.augi.com/forumdisplay.php?f=120) Forum to this one as I feel this particular Forum is a more appropriate place for such a topic.

Thanks, Mike

Forum Moderator

[jjdurett]

HI
I have to agree with David on this. I just started at a firm 8 months ago working with a guy who is supposed to be the CAD Manager and all I have done for the last six months is fix his work and try to teach the "manager" the correct and efficient way to draw. It is better to say something now or you'll be doomed to more work. "Speak now or forever hold your peace"

[purvisp]

The new hire says he is a semester short of getting an assoc. drafting degree from a junior college.

Now you know why he is a semester short of graduating. Probably wasn't going to make the cut. Those are basic commands. If he doesn't know them, chances are he doesn't know much about how to use Autocad. Sounds like you need to give the boss man a heads up. I know how it is too to have a boss that knows everything about everything. Its a tough call, but sounds like you may end up doing most of his work for him. Or, just let him fall flat on his face then your boss may not have a choice but to let him go. Sounds harsh, but hey, there's a line at the door of people looking for work; ( at least around here anyway).

[mtlynn]

That's why I like to give interviewers a autocad test during the interview.
Just give them a 10 min. test something simple to draw that requires the basic commands. If they blow thru it, then they know there stuff, If they struggle then your going to have to do some teaching if you hire them. I get real tired of people lying there way into a position.

[Robert.Hall]

Anything learned at the college level isn't worth its weight. I took a vocational school Cad course during high school (400 hrs experience). After taking college courses, I found that nothing is learned at the college level. I would be lost if I did not attend a vocational school. For anyone looking to get into to drafting, I would suggest taking a more serious training class. Any college course is just designed to give engineering curiculum 3 more credits while not having to think of a "real" class for the students to enroll. Colleges will bring anyone off the street to teach a Cad course.

[bbapties]

i interviewed at a small firm. It was just the one technician "cad manager"... he was looking for a cad monkey to do straight cad... It was when i first moved down to FL. He asked if I'd draw a quick 2d detail up so that he can check my knowledge of cad...So I said sure!, (planning that he'd ask) I pulled out my disc and said do you mind if I load my own profile and pgp file?..

He said... " a pg what file.....? I dont want you to draw a profile this is architectural work. I said for you to draw a detail...."

:screwy: I promptly picked my resume off the desk and said "I'm sorry to waste your time, have a good weekend" and walked out...

[Wanderer]

yes, I think it is typical. I picked up most of my knowledge of cad in 3 years of high school drafting... college was a complete waste to me. We had people coming in to the classes because they thought they were graphics design programs, never used CAD before, and managed to pass and get some sort of certificate. ~shakes head~ Most of my instructors couldn't even tell you how to do basic commands, why would you expect the students to be able to ?

So, in short, I agree that a basic skills assessment test should be given. I was given a test when interviewing for this job where I had to do just basic things like setting up some layers, attaching and x-ref, etc... very basic, but, the engineer who gave me the test told me that some people just did really, really badly on it.

good luck


Hello, I am a drafter for a small engineering firm. We now have three drafters. The new hire says he is a semester short of getting an assoc. drafting degree from a junior college. This guy can barley use the copy command and didn't know what hatch was... As you can imagine there are a few more common tools that he is now learning from me.

The question is, is it common place for people coming out of school to know very little and be extremely slow? I have an assoc. degree also, and its been a couple of years since school, but I know I had the common commands down plus some. I did have some release 11 training in high school also.

Am I out of place by saying something to my boss, he hired him. Boss is a engineer who knows everything about everything.

This is driving me crazy. This can't be right.

Dazed and confused

[bruce.adams]

College cad courses are running about 3 years behind the curve. Most instructors have never used AutoCad in a practical sense. Today's college hiring of instructors require a college teaching degree and a engineering degree to teach these courses. If I have a teaching degree and a engineering degree can you guess what type of career path I'm going to take? Hence you get instructors with little or no practical experience in Cad design. This is a black mark on college campus's all over, and these students are paying for a skill they never acquire. It's a crying shame.

[Maverick91]

This is one of the problems I had with engineering interns. Even though they have a degree (it's all BS), they were only required to take a single semester (3 hours) in 'engineering graphics'. As a new hire at the company I used to work at, they were given a CAD position (for lack of a better term). To them, I was just a grunt CAD tech and what did I know? A heluva' lot more then them, and in the ways of ACAD, drafting, and design.

[Wanderer]

~nods~ my instructors (community college) were a mix of shop teachers from the local high schools, and people who actually worked in the field. (the second part of the group was one big benefit of taking night classes, as their working experience made their lessons a little more applicable)

~memory fade to HVAC class~
~raises hands~ all we're drawing is forced-air heating systems, are we going to do any hhw systems?
~shakes head~ naw, you'd only use that type of thing if you were working on large commercial projects.
:shock:
~fade back to present, still never having worked in residential. ;) ~

College cad courses are running about 3 years behind the curve. Most instructors have never used AutoCad in a practical sense. Today's college hiring of instructors require a college teaching degree and a engineering degree to teach these courses. If I have a teaching degree and a engineering degree can you guess what type of career path I'm going to take? Hence you get instructors with little or no practical experience in Cad design. This is a black mark on college campus's all over, and these students are paying for a skill they never acquire. It's a crying shame.

[bbapties]

ya but everyone knows that that little piece of paper makes you a better hire...;)

[CADKitty]

So you're all saying I'm not ordinary? :shock:

I have my A.A.S. in Industrial Technology Engineering - aka Drafting. I got a full spectrum of courses in AutoCAD, Solid Works, and CADKey. College is where I developed the vast majority of my AutoCAD skills - basic concepts, paperspace, 3D apps, basic manipulation of the program (LISP, customization). Quite frankly (and oh so modestly) I had a firm grasp of AutoCAD when I was done, and a rather impressive portfolio of sample work.

That being said, it all depends on what program you're in. I know those going for Engineering Science are taught the bare, bare minimum (copy, move, line, etc.), as are those in the *shudder* Architectural program.

Mind you, hiring this guy who can barely function to be a drafter is just asking for it...either get him some training, or get him outta there! :screwy:

[jvoight]

Hey thanks for all the reassurance. Although my experience with college was positive in regards to learning acad and more general drafting rules, plus some general cad management. Even the soccer moms in looking to start a new career had a great handle on acad.

I did bring this up briefly on about day two.. But the boss said "he's not bad for having no practical experience".. No he's horrible.

This was the only guy he interviewed, and apparently he is a brother of a good friend from high school. Months earlier I offered my services in finding an entry level drafter, but that fell on def ears. He did take my advice and viewed a sample drawing from the guy, because I found the previous hire exploding dimensions and changing line properties instead of changing layers. Boss said the sample drawing looked good, but it must have taken him weeks to complete.

Now get this, the other day boss was complaining to me about how he hasn't gotten a paycheck in two months... I'm trying everything I can to get this company more efficient. But its like I have one hand tied behind my back.

Thanks for your experience, This is my first job in this career and might be my previous job if things don't change soon.

[bbacker]

We run into this problem with our new hires all the time. We have 3 new hires, two interns and an "experienced" drafter. Only one is worth his salt. He is an arch. intern with a BA in architecture. He is great and he knows AutoCAD inside and out. The other two are worthless. Slow as molasses going uphill on a cold winters day. Unfortunately, we are so short handed we will take anything. That piece of paper may make a resume look good but if they don't have the skills to back it up... :?

[Maverick91]

ya but everyone knows that that little piece of paper makes you a better hire...;)
and my BS isn't even in architecture or engineering. It's in construction. I was educated to be a field rat. But then I wised up and went back to what I was doing before earning a sheep's skin. Ironically, I've applied my BS more in my present position then when I was a "glorified, college-educated day-laborer".

[david.kingham]

Find another job, you will never be happy there, I learned this after 4 grueling years

[Ammon]

i interviewed at a small firm. It was just the one technician "cad manager"... he was looking for a cad monkey to do straight cad... It was when i first moved down to FL. He asked if I'd draw a quick 2d detail up so that he can check my knowledge of cad...So I said sure!, (planning that he'd ask) I pulled out my disc and said do you mind if I load my own profile and pgp file?..

He said... " a pg what file.....? I dont want you to draw a profile this is architectural work. I said for you to draw a detail...."

:screwy: I promptly picked my resume off the desk and said "I'm sorry to waste your time, have a good weekend" and walked out...
That's hilarious. I don't think I would want the headache of trying to work with someone that didn't know the basics of CAD customization.

[Robert.Hall]

So without knowing so much about AutoCad, what about computer skills?
If the person is really good with a computer, then maybe all you need to do
is take a half day to train them on some of the ins and outs of AutoCad commands.

Alot of what people know today is learned on the job...........the key is to make
sure the associate is always learning.

[damon]

Hello, I am a drafter for a small engineering firm. We now have three drafters. The new hire says he is a semester short of getting an assoc. drafting degree from a junior college. This guy can barley use the copy command and didn't know what hatch was... As you can imagine there are a few more common tools that he is now learning from me.
I don't think it's right but then again my company hired someone with no training and no collage education. I feel like I wasted my time going to collage and couldn't find a job for a year, but here walks in the person with nothing and gets one easy.:mad:

[Robert.Hall]

I don't think it's right but then again my company hired someone with no training and no collage education. I feel like I wasted my time going to collage and couldn't find a job for a year, but here walks in the person with nothing and gets one easy.:mad:

What about the pay scale? The person may have a job, but at the lowest rung on the ladder.

[Wanderer]

I don't think it's right but then again my company hired someone with no training and no collage education. I feel like I wasted my time going to collage and couldn't find a job for a year, but here walks in the person with nothing and gets one easy.:mad:
ooh, ooh, I gotta tell a story on our IT department...

one of my friends went to a local tech school and graduated and came to work here. he worked with a person a little younger than himself and noticed she seemed a little clueless, and asked her where she went to school... she named a high school... then he asked her where she worked before coming here, and she replies with, 'hardee's' (for those who don't know, that's a fast food place, I used to work there myself).

I will say that I was hired here with only two semesters in college CAD, but, with 3 years in high school, and no experience. I was started out at the bottom of a payscale, and over the past five years, I've moved up two payscales and am now in the middle of my current one.

could be they are just taking a chance and trying them out. I don't know... it certainly appears frustrating, as in my example with my friend.

[damon]

I was told when I started that every drafter starts out at where I started and that I can advance quickly. Well here it is a year later still making the same thing and still at the bottom.

[david.kingham]

A year is nothing, it took me 4 years before I made good money. If you really want to make money you won't do it drafting, unless you do contract drafting, which gets painful after awhile. Need to look at advancing your knowlege either as a cad manager or becoming an architect/engineer. Drafting sucks!

[Wanderer]

A year is nothing, it took me 4 years before I made good money. If you really want to make money you won't do it drafting, unless you do contract drafting, which gets painful after awhile. Need to look at advancing your knowlege either as a cad manager or becoming an architect/engineer. Drafting sucks!
Well, the problem with some employers is that if you start out with a 'starting rate, to prove your worth'... some will try to keep you at it.

You should review with your boss, reminding them of the promise to earn more, and say, I've learned/improved these skills, aren't I doing well?
If you get a 'yes', then ask for a raise (check the salary survey results for general comparisons), then, if they say no, look around. I've had plenty of friends who thought that they deserved more than what they got, but, their bosses didn't agree, but, other companies realized the skills needed and were willing to compensate them accordingly.

I'm loyal to my employer and my boss because I've been treated fairly over the past five years.

um, that said, yep, I'm a cad monkey, there's no way I'll retire before I'm 85. lol... good luck to us all that play the lottery.

[jaberwok]

A couple of people have commented that the teachers were not people who had used CAD "in anger" and they are, generally, correct but, as a (part time) lecturer, I can tell you that some students take to CAD like the proverbial duck to water whilst some will never be half-way competent even if they keep coming to classes for the rest of their lives. To be a draughtsman takes, and has always taken, a certain mind set. Either you have it or you don't.
Also, I can't relate to the idea of a degree in CAD - it seems, from here, like a degree in hammer or in trowel or even in MS Word. CAD is a tool, engineering in all its guises is the trade we practice.

My £0.02

[jonathan.landeros]

A couple of people have commented that the teachers were not people who had used CAD "in anger" and they are, generally, correct but, as a (part time) lecturer, I can tell you that some students take to CAD like the proverbial duck to water whilst some will never be half-way competent even if they keep coming to classes for the rest of their lives. To be a draughtsman takes, and has always taken, a certain mind set. Either you have it or you don't.
Also, I can't relate to the idea of a degree in CAD - it seems, from here, like a degree in hammer or in trowel or even in MS Word. CAD is a tool, engineering in all its guises is the trade we practice.

My £0.02

In my experience, it's a little tough to use a broad brush on schools, teachers, and the students they produce. When I took my 'Engineering Graphical Communication' course, the instructor was abysmal, but a group of knowledgeable students helped teach those of us who didn't know, but were willing to learn. Sadly, we ended up learning in spite of our instructor, not because of him.

On the other hand, sometimes it seemed like you could see the words bouncing off a student's forehead. The information just couldn't get in, no matter how hard students tried (although there were those who didn't care either). Either that, or they were going to school so they had something to keep them busy between weekends, and weren't very serious about it at all.

IMHO, a lot of it is in the attitude and smarts of the individual. If an instructor or school is bad, they'll find a way to learn the material. If somebody's willing to take the time to teach them (before or after graduation), they'll absorb it like a sponge.

Unfortunately, there is that small percentage that just isn't cut out for it, no matter how hard they try, but in my experience that's been a minority.

<soapbox mode on>
It's the brains and the willingness to use them that's reflected by their sheepskin they earned. Not the other way around.
<soapbox mode off>

[Brian Myers]

When it comes to CAD it's all about the attitude. Myself, I've taken CAD courses in College and Vocational... but nothing ever beat studying books over my lunch hour and just practicing with it. People that apply themselves and make the effort will eventually succeed... people that don't put the effort in won't...

That goes for the "real world" too... people that work hard at learning in their field will be more likely to succeed than people that just sit there and expect others to teach them.

[Robert.Hall]

In my experience, it's a little tough to use a broad brush on schools, teachers, and the students they produce. When I took my 'Engineering Graphical Communication' course, the instructor was abysmal, but a group of knowledgeable students helped teach those of us who didn't know, but were willing to learn. Sadly, we ended up learning in spite of our instructor, not because of him.

On the other hand, sometimes it seemed like you could see the words bouncing off a student's forehead. The information just couldn't get in, no matter how hard students tried (although there were those who didn't care either). Either that, or they were going to school so they had something to keep them busy between weekends, and weren't very serious about it at all.

IMHO, a lot of it is in the attitude and smarts of the individual. If an instructor or school is bad, they'll find a way to learn the material. If somebody's willing to take the time to teach them (before or after graduation), they'll absorb it like a sponge.

Unfortunately, there is that small percentage that just isn't cut out for it, no matter how hard they try, but in my experience that's been a minority.

<soapbox mode on>
It's the brains and the willingness to use them that's reflected by their sheepskin they earned. Not the other way around.
<soapbox mode off>

I agree with you in some regards.........it is too bad that AutoDesk doesn't give students free copies of the software for instructional purposes (I'm not sure if they do?).
Would help alot of bored dorm students lear AutoCad if they could mess around with
the software in their spare time. Definately too expensive for a student to grab a copy!

[Wanderer]

I agree with you in some regards.........it is too bad that AutoDesk doesn't give students free copies of the software for instructional purposes (I'm not sure if they do?).
Would help alot of bored dorm students lear AutoCad if they could mess around with
the software in their spare time. Definately too expensive for a student to grab a copy! I'm not sure of the exact price, maybe a couple hundred dollars, if you are a student. But, you have to purchase them through the school (typically the bookstore and you have to have your class schedule with you to prove you are in a cad class).

[CADKitty]

I'm not sure of the exact price, maybe a couple hundred dollars, if you are a student. But, you have to purchase them through the school (typically the bookstore and you have to have your class schedule with you to prove you are in a cad class).I want to say it's $500 or less, Melanie...but be really careful of that Educational Plot Stamp!

[Wanderer]

I want to say it's $500 or less, Melanie...but be really careful of that Educational Plot Stamp!;) I thought about mentioning that. yes, anything that was created with this, even if it is just one entity, such as a block, copied over to another drawing in a legit version of acad, will bring in this plot stamp, and you have to contact your reseller to 'clean' the drawings or something. :)

[Li'l Crys]

I have an Associates in drafting and while when I got my first drafting job, I didn't quite feel adequate for the job, I knew the commands. My main problem was that everything was already customized for the company, so I had to learn other commands as well.

[Brian Myers]

;) I thought about mentioning that. yes, anything that was created with this, even if it is just one entity, such as a block, copied over to another drawing in a legit version of acad, will bring in this plot stamp, and you have to contact your reseller to 'clean' the drawings or something. :)

Not only that, but you can't legally use the educational version to profit from... so no side projects using the Educational version... just class work (and personal learning).

[Brian Myers]

My main problem was that everything was already customized for the company, so I had to learn other commands as well.

Which brings up another point, just like not all companies are set-up the same, not all colleges are set-up the same. A few still do most work on the boards, others 50-50, still others do most everything on CAD. But what if your college uses Microstation or Revit instead of AutoCAD? Should an Architectural school only use Revit? Should they start with AutoCAD and move to either Revit or ADT?

This is one of the biggest questions we'll have on a University/College/Tech School level over the next 5-10 years.... and how will companies (and grads) deal with the challenges of otherwise qualified employees not being trained in the software that the employers use? This is a different type of interoperability beyond the "simple" challenge of sharing information.... how do schools produce the best students when it's no longer a question of which Pencil lead or type of paper to use... this is a question of the best program to facilitate education while still producing students that will be useful and tech savy when they leave school. Will students and their training be interoperable with the work environment they enter into?

[glee.94356]

It used to be that your problem was choosing between different CAD programs while in college. Autocad or Microstation. For awhile it was easy for many colleges because of Autocad's dominance. With the advent of BIM and the many different programs out there vying for dominance we are sort of back to when you had to choose between two or more programs for drafting/ BIM.
A student who is savvy and understands the importance of CAD, modeling or BIM in the real world will take the pains to research which particular application is appropriate for his field. Then take the appropriate courses and try to obtain real world experience through internships.
For the most part many employers are very picky about new grads. When two grads with equally good portfolios appear on your door step, you look to the one with most experience or abilities that will minimize that training or breaking in period.
I teach part time at a junior college (both design & CAD) and when it comes to CAD, you get all kinds. Some students are motivated and will push to learn as much as possible. Some have the attitude that CAD isn't design and they don't really need it because they are the next generation FLW or Frank Gehry or whatever. So it does come down to the students themselves (and the influence some lecturers may have dispensed).
On the academic half of the equation, many lecturers have little or no real world experience. In fact some look down on practitioners. Those that have worked before probably are so far distant from it that their experience has little relevance.
Colleges can anticipate and try to provide the appropriate courses but if the academics themselves are out of touch, how can they make proper recommendations as to the types of software or courses to provide? Top that off with budget cuts in education and you really have a problem.
As is the AEC industry is still picking it's way through CAD or BIM. Until that issue is well defined, colleges are not going to be the place where it's resolved.
I can't even figure out myself which path to follow but know that it's a good idea for now to keep my fingers in both pies and see how everything shapes up.
In the meantime, it's more about proper techniques. Teaching students how to function using whichever cad software within the work environment. Like the student who mentioned that he had to figure things out from scratch because his firm had everything customized differently. Maybe a primer on how to study a pgp file to figure out the shortcuts used by the firm. Learning how to be flexible and adapt their cad practices within a working environment. Why certain things are done so that different disciplines can coordinate and interoperate. Not just how to x-ref or block by why you use layer 0, or 0,0 as an insertion for files in the aec indsutry etc.
There has been talk about getting academics and professionals together and some schools have done that. But for the most part it's skin deep. Are there any academics in this forum? I noticed the education subforum has had no postings in awhile. Maybe it's time to draw them in and have a discussion on this subject.

[Jason.Moore]

<<draws up plans for collapseable soap-box, builds it and tries it out>>

I've been doing cad for over 17 years, I started when I was 18 fresh from high school in a "fill-in-the-blanks" job, i kept studying at every job, if the job would send me to a class, great. if not, I would buy the books, try it all myself and work it out over time. I am now at the point I can afford to take the time off and pay for My own classes when upgrades come around, and I stay up to date. I teach all the people at My office, and a few satellite offices too. I'm effectively the cad-manager, I tell everyone about updates, service packs, etc. answer tech questions (correctly too). and administer the cad test to new hires (oy vey, these are graduates?)

<<adds in adjustable feet for uneven floor>>

for the most part, companies want someone who can operate the program, but be able to do it like the company is doing now (outdated in some instances) and they pay accordingly low to start. some will see value in someone who has the skills and pay well for it. others are blind and deaf.

dont be afraid to look someone in the eye and tell them they are wrong about how they are doing it. be it for hiring newbies or using CAD. just be diplomatic when you do it, and back it up.

[Brian Myers]

Maybe a primer on how to study a pgp file to figure out the shortcuts used by the firm. Learning how to be flexible and adapt their cad practices within a working environment. Why certain things are done so that different disciplines can coordinate and interoperate. Not just how to x-ref or block by why you use layer 0, or 0,0 as an insertion for files in the aec indsutry etc.


I very much agree with what you said, but your words in the quote also indicate an interesting problem we face. In Revit I believe terms like "x-ref" and pgp file are foreign. As a result, schools are currently more likely to stress the design aspects than CAD as these terms are relative to certain programs, but design is universal.

Or is it?

The WAY you design currently could very much depend on the programs you use even if good design principles are universal. So the best way of teaching a student may be with the program best designed to convey these design principles... but not the program necessarily used by the industry as a whole. I'm very interested myself in how this will be handled in the near future...

[glee.94356]

Agreed. Hmmm. We seem to agree on a number of things.
Personally, I still pull out a roll of trace and sketch my ideas out. In fact I'll hash it out till I'm happy and use those sketches as part of my presentation to my client. If there are obvious problems, I pull out Autocad or revit and do a quick study. Or I build a cardboard model. Depends on the forms I am working with and what the client can understand. Some prefer holding something as opposed to viewing it on screen or looking at a graphic. Once I get into Schematics everything shifts straight to cad. Since I'm a newbie with Revit, I have not ventured down the path of using it for my production drawings though I would like to. ( I use Revit to see if I have difficult intersections that could cause leaks or other problems.)

Design is a personal thing and everyone approaches it from different ways. It's why I think all methods of design should be taught. Not everyone will design the same way and what works for one design lecturer may not necessarily work for the student. Universities cannot be expected to teach every single software program out there. No funding or budgets to support this. Let alone lecturers that have the knowledge of multiple programs.
There are many programs out there that are "design" specific. Form Z & Sketch it, comes to mind. They are not industry standard (some will debate this). A student who learns how to use this because a particular studio required it may find it difficult to convince the firm they end up working for to purchase a seat for them to use as part of their design studies if the program does not already exist within the firm's environment ( I have seen this happen and done it myself a long time ago).
It's not necessarily a loss to the student because most cad programs have similar ways of getting things done (well sort of) and normally certain skill sets can be translated.
So again, I still think it's up to the student to arm themselves with the appropriate skills.
Colleges and universities should try to keep up and stay current with the industry as a whole but with budget cuts, I think this will be difficult.
I guess we have sort of strayed away from the gist of the associate drafting degree?
Actually to me in means nothing whether you earned an associates degree in drafting or while in a 4 year university, high school or in your basement. It's what you bring to the firm. If a drafter is what we are looking for, we look for how you perform on the computer as opposed to what your piece of paper says you did.
That said, I noticed a number of firms have posted trying to figure out what to have on their cad test for interviews. If they have enterpise cui's and custom pgps, that may hamper the interviewee and it may not be a fair way of accessing their abilities. Something for them to consider. It's actually why you should have a probationary period.

[Robert.Hall]

A probationary period? Are your refering to putting someone on trial for a few weeks?
It is easy to see why alot of designers get hired in off contract positions.

[glee.94356]

It's actually quite common. Sometimes somebody you feel was a good fit during a lengthy interview process comes in and either does not perform or rubs everybody the wrong way.
Everyone gives a good show during an interview, it's just part of the process. So having a new hire be on probation for a certain amount of time, let's both the firm and the newbie get a feel for each other. Sometimes either party finds it's not working out and walks. Sometimes it's a great fit from the start. Firms like this process because the newbie may not be on the benefits plan until after the probationary period. It allows either party to walk away with no hard feelings. Well sort of. No bonds are formed. Sometimes the newbie finds that once they start working and are pigeonholed doing handrail details, it's not their cup of tea. Not quite the design role they thought they were getting. So they walk. No extra paperwork needed.
Hiring temps on contract has been around for awhile. Most of the time, the intention is not to hire but to fill a position needed because of a new project or tight deadline. The idea is to get the job done. Occassionaly a temp/ contract hire perfroms above and beyond expectations and the firm realises that it would be a mistake to let them go. Normally temps/ contract hires are not the same as a full timer hired but still on probation. Some firms forgo a probation period and the new hire has full benefits from the get go. Some firms may not have a probation period but instill one because the new hire is an unknown factor. Looks good on paper but something about the person is not quite right, so they wait and see.
All common practice. More so in small or medium size firms where it's important for everyone to get along to a certain extent.

[mlayport]

OK ...This is my first post, my background is 6yr.s formal education (4yr.s H.S.with 2 yr.s A.A. degree in Mech. Drafting) and post training in process piping, ACAD, & 3D pipe drafting. Basically you’re looking at 30 yr.s "Theoretically" I should know what I'm talking about. You'll get to judge on this.
I fine myself on the fence here! "IF" someone comes out of school with an AA in drafting and doesn't have a good handle on AutoCAD wouldn't scare me too much! I would guess he/she would know how individual drawings are put together, how they relate to one another, and what objects lines, dimension lines, hidden line are and how they are properly represented! And what puts me on the fence is people are coming out of trade schools or a few courses at local Jr. colleges with AutoCAD under their belts and think they can perform effectively as a draftsman! These are the "money-see, monkey-do" draftsmen. These are the people the engineers go to with markups to be laid out into a drawing. Problem is engineers aren't draftsmen either! ...OR are they suppose to be! They normally get ONE semester of drafting, so they can "read" a drawing. Kind of like knowing how to drive a car and be expected to re-build the engine! This problem seems to be the standard, at least form my end ...other disciplines too, I'll bet! You could teach an ill prepared AutoCAD user inside of 2 months to operate in a given company. But you couldn't make a draftsman in that period of time! So give me the "draftsman" anytime! ...You can keep the "computer jockeys"! …Mark

[glee.94356]

A person with an Autocad course under their belt does not a draftsman make. A draftsman with some autocad trainning will eventually become effective with cad. I gather that's the gist of what you are saying.
No argument here on my part.
I believe from my experience that the role of draftsman tends to have a higher level of use in MEP and other engineering disciplines.
Whereas in architecture, the architects are also the draftsman. What we design, we need to be able to draft. Be it in CAD or by hand. Some of the discussion points in this thread does somewhat revolve around the architectural field and the problems we have with intergrating design and CAD or BIM. For the most part architects still practicing without CAD knowledge tend to be either principals, senior CAdmin, project managers or senior designers. Any newbie graduating better pray they have some kind of CAD trainning. Plus it's faster to just draw the detail in CAD than sketching it in red on paper and handing it to a junior architect or intern architect ( I have a problem with calling non license architects, intern architects. NCARB should come up with a better term.)
MEP has different challenges because their designs are handed off to a third party to be drafted.
It therefore falls on this drafter to ensure that the intent of the design is properly translated. So I do agree with you. Having a trainned draftsman who knows about lineweights and assembly or construction methods is important. In today's world, that draftsman does needs to know some kind of CAD.
However the importance of good CAD skills and knowing the basics of CAD drafting standards for coordination across the disciplines should always be high on the priority list.
Hours can be wasted because somebody decides to change the world UCS, insertion point, etc. Not to mention the problems during construction because of misalignment problems or if details were drawn inaccurately.
This has been discussed in the MEP coordination thread. I have no idea how to link to it. I know there are tips. Will get around to reading it properly one day and then I will edit this. : )

[Brian Myers]

A person with an Autocad course under their belt does not a draftsman make. A draftsman with some autocad trainning will eventually become effective with cad. I gather that's the gist of what you are saying.

I believe from my experience that the role of draftsman tends to have a higher level of use in MEP and other engineering disciplines.
Whereas in architecture, the architects are also the draftsman.

Which leads to the next thing we all seem to be dancing around but not exactly addressing... the need for an Associates Degree in Drafting. Currently I do believe that there is a place for the Associates or Tech degree (and yes, a good entry level drafter should have the basic skills), but do you think such a degree will still be useful 10 years from now?

I should start with the background into my own education. I started with a 2 year vocational degree and worked 3 years as a CAD draftsman before going to college. Over the course of the next 5 years I received both my Associates and Bachelors degrees (Architecture). In my day (1989 on up....) being a "CAD Draftsman" was looked at with respect! We were respected for our CAD Knowledge and people were amazed at our skill. Today, it seems as if Designers in all fields are sitting down and doing more of their own work, often in CAD, and they talk badly about many of the candidates walking in the door (no longer "amazed" by their computer work). The complex design models these Senior Designers will create (in a true Modeling Environment) will eventually reach a level where the design itself will convey what/how things are to be built without the need for a draftsman (but perhaps with a Junior Designer to expedite the process). What happens to the "CAD Draftsman" with just a certificate or Associates degree? Will we still need them?

Personally, I know of a respected member of our local community (and very active AUGI member) that says he quit his job as the head of a local community college design/drafting program because he no longer sees the long term purpose of such education. With cheap overseas drafting talent and a change in the fabric of design I can understand the logic involved.

If my kids would take the same path I took to get my start in the field, I'm not sure they would even get a job unless they were really special and found their niche in the right industry. So not only are the programs effecting the way we learn and do design, they will ultimately effect the very thought process behind which employees we will wish to hire (based on qualifications) and which openings we have for them to fill.

This also will effect which programs these young designers will be taught in school. Drafting as we know it may eventually cease to be taught as the principles of design modeling will take over in which Information Models will be constructed, not drafted, eliminating the need for "drafters" all together.

[jaberwok]

I'd like to link Gerard's and Brian's comments.

#The times, they are a-changing#

When I entered engineering (1960s) one started with an apprenticeship - 4 years for any kind of technician but 5 years for a draughtsman. So that's 4 years to learn a trade and a further year to learn how to convey the necessary information to others.
This just doesn't happen any more.
Now one gets a degree in whatever discipline and, if relevant, that degree course will include some CAD. But does it include how to be a draughtsman? I believe that it doesn't.

Conditions have changed and will continue to change. 20 years ago a few draughtsmen taught themselves CAD; then teaching CAD became an important operation; now it's a small part of something else. Perhaps in another 20 years it will no longer be important enough to be worth discussing.
Consider word processing - how many people these days receive professional training? How many simply absorb it in passing?

[Robert.Hall]

I agree with not being good at the actual drafting regardless of any knowledge of AutoCad.
Drafting is a skill upon itself. One doesn't gain the knowledge of detailing prints from any course taken in college. Companies are forced to train the employees and provide a
detailed written standard on what is expected on drawings.

[glee.94356]

I was a draftsman right out of high school. Attended a vocational college (around 87-88 but not in this country) Back then we drafted working drawings using technical pens (initially using those old fashion nibs with the screw adjustment, I forget now the name for it) on mylar. We had to be fast but accurate or you were out the door. I did a number of freelance jobs though I did not graduate ( I was working and making money, back then I was young and didn't see the need). Designers and architects were really particular about which pen thickness you used to denote a wall or anything else. You could not just willy nilly draw anything you wanted. I picked up a mouse to learn Autocad R10 around that time because somebody felt I had the ability though I never used it. Came to America(got tired of drating for other people) and finally graduated(after an overly long time) with an architecture degree.
All through college, I would tear my hair out because it seemed that everyone else around me had very rudimentary knowledge of line weights (including some lecturers). When I started working I had these senior architects telling me how to draft. In my mind, they sure in heck were not draftsmen. I adjusted to their system but at least I knew the importance of lineweights.
I do believe that drafting has lost it's importance as subsequent generations of grads (be it professional degree holders or vocational or tech) have sort of lost those techniques. If you have never had to fiddle with that screw to get your lineweights just right, you don't remember the pain and it's not burned in your brain ( I still have a set that was given to me recently by one of my old bosses). Actually because of my background, I still see good penmanship as an art form. In some parts of the world even architects still rely on draftsmen who technically hold professional diplomas. Just one step shy of a full degree.
Right now we still plot to paper. In 10 years everything will be different. Will we still plot to paper? If we still do, drafting still has relevance. If it's some kind of virtual model that ties into the AEC system and the contractors software, then maybe not. But as long as the paperless working environment has not come to pass yet (actually I think we use more paper now than before), we still need good draftsmen. Or should I be saying draftsperson. Actually I used to spell it as "draughtsman".
Regardless, even with BIM, you still need to plot. You still need to set your lineweights though with 400dpi plotters, people don't seem to care because you can read everything. Which was not the point but the hierachy of defining the importance of materials or elements. Being able to see a detail and it's components is not the same as being able to "read" a detail.
For the time being, a vocational drafting degree or diploma still has relevance. Yes, many new grads now graduate knowing cad. But knowing CAD does not mean you know how to draft. In addition it depends on who's teaching the cad class and what their background is. Certain engineering disciplines draw certain elements with just a simple hierachy or no hierachy of lineweights. A architecture student attending that class because it's the only one offered will think they know what cad is after taking the class and be blown away when they see the number of layers etc, needed for architectural drafting in cad. Heck, there's vast differences between structural drafting and civil engineering drafting.
If BIM or some new form of design communication is further developed that the construction process is fully tied into it, the days of the draftsman is numbered. Heck the days of the designer/ engineer/ architect who only drafts or details will be numbered.
If the new BIM model conveys all the information you need as the lead designer puts it together and all the disciplines are tied into the model in realtime (assuming we ever get real broadband 3G or higher and not pay a ransom for it) and contractors can pull the materials off it and bid on the job then build from it, without once having to look at a sheet of drawings, then many of us need to check our retirement plans.
We're not quite there yet. But maybe in 10 years or less, who knows. Many in the BIM forums will say they are there now. Though as long as there's still paper, .....not.
The AEC world continues to evolve, who's to say what will really come to pass.
So for now, check the work being plotted out, train your drafters, implement good CAD standards that are simple and straight forward, implement quality control at all levels, check the work again and when you are done, check it again.

[Brian Myers]

I agree with not being good at the actual drafting regardless of any knowledge of AutoCad.
Drafting is a skill upon itself. One doesn't gain the knowledge of detailing prints from any course taken in college. Companies are forced to train the employees and provide a
detailed written standard on what is expected on drawings.

Plus, companies and the educational system have not adapted to the new way students are utilized within a company. It used to be that drafters would trace or modify existing details by drawing them out onto the set. Today all those basic details are already done as blocks which eliminates a key component in the early education of a "drafter". Now they are thrown into the full CD process with only a very limited education (often with just one semester/project in school of education in a particular area) and then we wonder why they are not more capable. This will only get worse as BIM is further emplimented until the day occurs where the program is capable of figuring out most of the structural issues on its own... but will our young designers be able to spot the areas that the computer wasn't quite able to get right or where it's not actually done in the field the way the computer thinks?

[dangrivakis]

I need to add to this thread myself. I have a background where I have worked now for 4 years in industry and hold my associates in CAD. The school that I went to did a good job of preparing me for the kind of work that I have been involved in. My course work was focused around a mechanical/electro mechanical core so The drafting and design courses were geared around this emphasis. Autocad was taught in the intro to cad classes and then we got into more advanced applications. With exposure to Autocad, Solidworks, Mechanical Desktop, Power PCB and viewlogic, and ADT I felt I came away with a good foundation and knowledge base of program tools. Among knowing these tools it gives me confidence to learn new programs as I am in industry and I will say that at times I have had to just for specfic purposes of interfacing with other users in the design process. Along with drafting I have learned fundementals in my associates degree that relate directly to design. Key functions of how to relate with project management and engineers as well as knowing how to read a spec and look up parts. Additional course work included electro-mechanical design, Capstone Design, Printed Circuit board design and mechanical components/design which was worked in with mechanical drafting courses. My proffessors were practioners in the field prior to their teaching days and meet regularly with an advisory board from industry. But there are some excellent questions being raised and I submit an article to read from a website that one of our instructors told us to look at a few years back:

http://www.memagazine.org/medes02/cadjock/cadjock.html

Based on this article one of the points I notice is that the drafter/cad guy needs to evolve. As software evolves we will need to see a change in the style of teaching so that drafting and design are meshed together and that when a student comes out of any one of a number of these programs they are ready to work in the design team. The vertical nature of the programs in use today makes this even more important.

Drafters need to become designers:
It can not be stressed enough. Especially today to stay in the game you need to build upon the base set of skills that are developed in the classroom. While the degree is a good way to get the foot in the door that is all it is. You get in the door and then it is upto the individual to advance. This is done through learning on the job, asking questions, reading on topics relative to your industry, further academic coursework and progress to a higher degree, ect... The drafter needs to pick a focus and direction. CAD management is one way to go or the other would be to progress as a designer and then into an engineer. I have had co-workers whom have done that start on the production floor manufacturing and move up the ranks and are mechanical engineers now. The choice is ours as designers where we end up. It is true the more you know the more you grow.

[Robert.Hall]

I did not read through the entire post.

I do know that drafting degrees are not worth the paper they
are written on. College courses take a back seat to courses
taught at vocational schools.

The goal of a vocational center is to get you a job.
The goal of a college is to take your money and hire a
cheap teacher.

I spent 2 years doing cadwork at a vocational center and
4 years in college. There isn't a college course that could
replace what I learned at the vocational center.

[Brian Myers]

I spent 2 years doing cadwork at a vocational center and
4 years in college. There isn't a college course that could
replace what I learned at the vocational center.

I would argue against this, which tells me we may be talking about the difference in educational programs. I did the vocational and 4 year degree program as well and I can tell you that while I learned better "drafting" skills at the vocational school, I didn't learn half of the nuts and bolts of good design and construction that I learned in college. So, it partially depends on your ultimate goals and needs.

[Robert.Hall]

I would argue against this, which tells me we may be talking about the difference in educational programs. I did the vocational and 4 year degree program as well and I can tell you that while I learned better "drafting" skills at the vocational school, I didn't learn half of the nuts and bolts of good design and construction that I learned in college. So, it partially depends on your ultimate goals and needs.

I agree completely.

Software knowledge = vocation school

Engineering/Technical knowledge = college

[dangrivakis]

A good program can expose you to both sound drafting principles and also design sense. The key is finding the balance between the two. I feel I got a good starting point for my career and now I am able to run where ever it may take me though I wont stop learning by any means.

[Sponge Bob]

Anyone have a skills assesment test that you are willing to share. I would like to know where I stand and where I need to do some work. I agree that you can get only so much from the college courses and I also feel that you can't get the rest from vo-tech. It takes some on the job training from savvy users to complete the job of developing a proficient user. User group forums help but nothing replaces one on one interaction on the job. If @ that point you don't see improvement you should look @ shaking the pot. But first do what you can to increase the level of knowledge ( it will show that you are a team player and make your job easier ). Who knows you may get some special recognition for the extra effort, but you shouldn't expect it. Our job extends beyond our personal deadlines when you are looked upon as a mentor in your work environment. Your frustration is understood however your assistance is more valuable.

[Mamma Jamma]

I'm sure there are people who get out of college or voc. school with plenty of CAD smarts.
The problem is, there are also plenty of people who get out knowing little to nothing. (and I suppose it's true for many fields)
The difference lies in their approach to learning. The good ones are curious, engaged, and know that there are more things to learn. These people would probably have been able to learn most of it on their own, given access to a few good books and the software. (which is why there are many good self-taught CADees)
The duds think that they have learned everything there is to know, just because they've taken a few classes. They went no further than was required to finish the class projects.
But, hey, they got that degree/certificate, gosh darn it!
Money ill spent...

[Brian Myers]

Anyone have a skills assesment test that you are willing to share. I would like to know where I stand and where I need to do some work. I agree that you can get only so much from the college courses and I also feel that you can't get the rest from vo-tech. It takes some on the job training from savvy users to complete the job of developing a proficient user.

I'd like to offer up this advice, it comes directly from your own answer actually (related to experience) as well as my own personal experience.

Pick up an AutoCAD book (the big manual is preferred if you have it) and read it. Now you don't have to read every word, but just look at the commands and only stop when you actually don't know what that command does. Then try it out. If you don't own the program then do it over lunch or (for students) do it in the computer lab of your school if you don't have a student version.

A skills assessment might point out your weak areas, but nothing points out your weak areas like reading a book and realizing you've never done what you are reading and using it hands on. Since this thread started (over two years ago) I've changed jobs and now work as an Application Engineer for an Autodesk reseller. I've found in this job what I've known all along... I know more about AutoCAD than 99% of the people out there. What I don't know I can typically find the answer for faster than most anyone. That doesn't mean I know every system variable or odd twist a command may have... but I DO know what the program can do and what it can't do and perhaps more importantly, where to look to find out how to make it do what I want. I learned it all from trial and error and making it crash and reading the book. It's a big reason why you'll find some tech people at your resellers which are really good and others that are not so good. The ones (on the problem solving end, not teaching) that are good tend to be the ones that go off the beaten path, are not afraid to make mistakes, and actually read about the program. The bad ones have only learned from exercises and try to walk the straight and narrow, never leaving the "yellow brick road". Arguements are made that "my job is "X" and not learning CAD" but that is only true to a point. Its like stating in the old days "my job is drafting, not learning to draw with a pencil". I know, that sounds funny, but so does not practicing with CAD. They are both tools to accomplish your needs and communicate and develop your ideas.

So an assessment test? You may find them, but I'd really recommend just reading and playing with the software. If you do this even 30 minutes a day (over a lunch hour?) for a year (or even a few months) you'll know more than the vast majority of your co-workers.

[Misteracad]

I'd like to offer up this advice, it comes directly from your own answer actually (related to experience) as well as my own personal experience.

Pick up an AutoCAD book (the big manual is preferred if you have it) and read it. Now you don't have to read every word, but just look at the commands and only stop when you actually don't know what that command does. Then try it out. If you don't own the program then do it over lunch or (for students) do it in the computer lab of your school if you don't have a student version.

A skills assessment might point out your weak areas, but nothing points out your weak areas like reading a book and realizing you've never done what you are reading and using it hands on. Since this thread started (over two years ago) I've changed jobs and now work as an Application Engineer for an Autodesk reseller. I've found in this job what I've known all along... I know more about AutoCAD than 99% of the people out there. What I don't know I can typically find the answer for faster than most anyone. That doesn't mean I know every system variable or odd twist a command may have... but I DO know what the program can do and what it can't do and perhaps more importantly, where to look to find out how to make it do what I want. I learned it all from trial and error and making it crash and reading the book. It's a big reason why you'll find some tech people at your resellers which are really good and others that are not so good. The ones (on the problem solving end, not teaching) that are good tend to be the ones that go off the beaten path, are not afraid to make mistakes, and actually read about the program. The bad ones have only learned from exercises and try to walk the straight and narrow, never leaving the "yellow brick road". Arguements are made that "my job is "X" and not learning CAD" but that is only true to a point. Its like stating in the old days "my job is drafting, not learning to draw with a pencil". I know, that sounds funny, but so does not practicing with CAD. They are both tools to accomplish your needs and communicate and develop your ideas.

So an assessment test? You may find them, but I'd really recommend just reading and playing with the software. If you do this even 30 minutes a day (over a lunch hour?) for a year (or even a few months) you'll know more than the vast majority of your co-workers.

Well said Brian!!!

[Richard.Kent]

Hello, I am a drafter for a small engineering firm. We now have three drafters. The new hire says he is a semester short of getting an assoc. drafting degree from a junior college. This guy can barley use the copy command and didn't know what hatch was... As you can imagine there are a few more common tools that he is now learning from me.

The question is, is it common place for people coming out of school to know very little and be extremely slow? I have an assoc. degree also, and its been a couple of years since school, but I know I had the common commands down plus some. I did have some release 11 training in high school also.

Am I out of place by saying something to my boss, he hired him. Boss is a engineer who knows everything about everything.

This is driving me crazy. This can't be right.

Dazed and confused

You can be a great Draftsman and not know diddly about CAD. You can be great at CAD and not know diddly about drafting. Any current drafting program should be covering both topics. If he is ready to graduate then he should have more CAD knowledge than that. That being said, the guy is already hired, they probably expect you to train him. Been there, done that.

[Stadtler]

Hello, I am a drafter for a small engineering firm. We now have three drafters. The new hire says he is a semester short of getting an assoc. drafting degree from a junior college. This guy can barley use the copy command and didn't know what hatch was... As you can imagine there are a few more common tools that he is now learning from me.

The question is, is it common place for people coming out of school to know very little and be extremely slow? I have an assoc. degree also, and its been a couple of years since school, but I know I had the common commands down plus some. I did have some release 11 training in high school also.

Am I out of place by saying something to my boss, he hired him. Boss is a engineer who knows everything about everything.

This is driving me crazy. This can't be right.

Dazed and confused

Maybe the boss does know more than you think - he may see the potential, the diamond in the rough, the cream which will rise to the top. Then again, the new hire could be the son of his wife's sister's husbands brother.......who couldn't find anyone else to hire him.

[tedg]

I have an "Associate in applied Science" degree in "Technical Graphics and Design Technology" from our local community college. This program gives you the building blocks (sorry for the pun) to go out and get a drafting/design job. After that it's up to you build on it.

In this degree program, you need to pass basic drafting (pencils and paper) and a basic computer class to even start taking the cadd courses. They don't want to have to train people how to draft while training them about the cadd program. You also need to choose several electives like Architectural drafting and design, Civil & Landscape drafting, Mechanical Drafting (etc.) so you can customize it to fit your needs.

It also requires Technical physics, Strength of Materials, Math etc.

So to sum it up, at least for the program I took, we got a well rounded amount of information to go out and make a living in drafting and design. But it's like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. If you don't apply what you've learned on the job you probably wouldn't do very well.

BTW I took several drafting classes in high school, when cadd wasn't even invented yet. :shock:

[Misteracad]

I have an "Associate in applied Science" degree in "Technical Graphics and Design Technology" from our local community college. This program gives you the building blocks (sorry for the pun) to go out and get a drafting/design job. After that it's up to you build on it.

In this degree program, you need to pass basic drafting (pencils and paper) and a basic computer class to even start taking the cadd courses. They don't want to have to train people how to draft while training them about the cadd program. You also need to choose several electives like Architectural drafting and design, Civil & Landscape drafting, Mechanical Drafting (etc.) so you can customize it to fit your needs.

It also requires Technical physics, Strength of Materials, Math etc.

So to sum it up, at least for the program I took, we got a well rounded amount of information to go out and make a living in drafting and design. But it's like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. If you don't apply what you've learned on the job you probably wouldn't do very well.

BTW I took several drafting classes in high school, when cadd wasn't even invented yet. :shock:

Tedg, your flashback is very similar to my own educational track and explains how my personal career began as well--including manual (board) drafting classes at a Vo-Tech high school, 3 periods per day for 3 years, before CAD was even popular. As a result, I was pretty well prepared for the real world when I graduated from college (with an AAS degree also), and have done everything I can over the years to build on my knowledge and strengthen my skills. However, I am sad to say that I am one of only a few in my high school and college graduating classes who stuck with this trade and made the most of the skills we were taught. Some 20+ years later I still live and breathe this stuff, but it seems very few CAD users that I encounter feel the same way. Most look at their role in CAD as just a job and could care less about learning any tips and tricks to help improve their proficiency :( At least that was and still is the case with most of the companies where I have worked!

Unfortunately I don't see a change coming anytime soon. The co-ops that we hire at my company today are usually clueless when it comes to CAD and the college apparently expects us to teach them what they need to know!?! In addition, a lot of our CAD users are totally focused on becoming "an Engineer" and care very little about the acquired skills needed to become a "good" (let alone excellent) CAD tech or CAD Manager. IMHO, I think too many schools/companies focus on the engineering concepts/theories, and not enough on the real world "design/in-your-face/how do I make this work" approach.

From yet a different perspective, I now find myself teaching a Mechanical Drafting class at a local Community College that is one of the few who DOES still teach board drafting AND a pretty nice array of CAD classes (including CAD Management!), but there is not enough importance placed on the order in which the classes are taken, or providing up-to-date CAD skills using qualified instructors. My class is full of students who are clueless about the proper use of lineweights and orthographic view placement, but have supposedly taken manual drafting. The others are fully capable of drawing a mechanical part in 3D (not the focus of this class mind you), but are clueless how to visualize the part in their mind so that they can relay the necessary details/views on paper so someone can build from it. And much to my dismay, NONE of my students know how to plot a drawing to scale LOL! Finally, my students have all had CAD "101," and in some cases "102" and even "103," yet some are using the friggin SIDEBAR menu in AutoCAD 2007/2008 to perform basic operations! Granted there are at least 3 different ways to do everything in AutoCAD (in this case 4), but this is totally ridiculous! Most people don't even know what this is, let alone how to turn it on!

I know that everyone has their preference and can be pretty proficient using "their way" versus the "new way," but if today's instructors are molding our future CAD techs, Designers, and Engineers, with yesteryear's technology or "old school" way of doing things, we will never advance this industry to the point of being able to embrace BIM or intelligent models. To me it's pretty scary to think that these folks are the ones who will probably replace me when I retire :?

Climbing down from my soapbox...

[tedg]

Tedg, your flashback is very similar to my own educational track and explains how my personal career began as well--including manual (board) drafting classes at a Vo-Tech high school, 3 periods per day for 3 years, before CAD was even popular. As a result, I was pretty well prepared for the real world when I graduated from college (with an AAS degree also), and have done everything I can over the years to build on my knowledge and strengthen my skills. However, I am sad to say that I am one of only a few in my high school and college graduating classes who stuck with this trade and made the most of the skills we were taught. Some 20+ years later I still live and breathe this stuff, but it seems very few CAD users that I encounter feel the same way.
..................
Climbing down from my soapbox...
Here Here....You're allowed to vent!

I hear and understand what you're saying.

We have many "junior engineers" that have had a very basic cadd course, and have no idea how to properly use the software. At the University level, I think they use Microstation because Bentley gives it to them. That doesn't help them in the world I work in, unless you work for a few D.O.T.'s or a mapping company.

I live and breathe this stuff too, they call me (among other things :p) a "cadd nazi".
It's been over twelve years I've been doing this full time, with a long history of dabbling in drafting and design prior to this.

:beer::beer:

[mockdeep]

This is a fascinating discussion and I sympathize with many of the complaints listed here. It has been no end of exasperation for me to see my employers hire complete nincompoops whom I invariably end up cleaning up after. At my last job I had the pleasure of resumes going through my hands before reaching the boss. Among the employees, we would have a good laugh at some of the stuff that would come in. One in particular had numerous grammatical errors and had a portfolio sample which included a very basic textureless 3-d model of a stick figure on a block building. A couple days later our boss comes in and tells us he has brought in a bright new guy who is very experienced in 3D Studio, guess who... At my current job we had a temp for about three days who couldn't seem to grasp that doors, in the vast majority of cases, are located in walls. Apparently she didn't understand the concept of a plan view.

That being said, though, I think that many companies put way too much emphasis on experience over growth potential. They look for someone of a particular skill level and expect them to work at that level while their growth is limited only to becoming slightly faster at doing things the same way they always have. Why is it that so many companies focus entirely on what is printed on that one sheet of paper instead of what is in someone's eyes and the words that come out of his mouth? It is so easy to mislead in writing, but near impossible to fake true intelligence face to face. My interview for my current job was going decently, if not spectacularly, when I said, "I just want to get better at what I do." Eyebrows raised and my interviewers glanced at each other. It was the moment I knew that, not only did I have the job, but that I wanted it. That my potential employers were wooed by my desire for personal growth let me know that I had a pretty good chance to be happy working here. Neither of us has regretted the decision so far. Though, if I could only make them understand the value of training . . .

I do believe this is my longest post ever.

[Binu Mathew]

College cad courses are running about 3 years behind the curve. Most instructors have never used AutoCad in a practical sense. Today's college hiring of instructors require a college teaching degree and a engineering degree to teach these courses. If I have a teaching degree and a engineering degree can you guess what type of career path I'm going to take? Hence you get instructors with little or no practical experience in Cad design. This is a black mark on college campus's all over, and these students are paying for a skill they never acquire. It's a crying shame.



Dear All,

Pls. note that i presume that most of the colleges and institutions are just an examination centres for just gaining the certificates and are not exactly teaching what the actual, when we are in a project to project we face many varies types of problems from that only every one improve, if the guy is having a basic knowledge of CAD programmes ofcourse he will pick up in the near future give him a chance to improve his carrier as if you think he is sincere to the Job and reliable, i used to interview the job seekers with viva and practical, if you are a CAD manager you could have the talent of guess on people and teach them if he is qualified from an authorized institution offcourse he will improve.

regards
Binu Mathew
Sr. Electrical CAD Designer
Kuwait

[aarons9142000]

I thought this would be a good place to ask this instead of starting a new thread. I'm actually on the other end of this discussion, currently a CAD student that doesn't want to be that new hire that knows nothing with a piece of paper that basically means nothing.

Im in the Phoenix area and my options for a drafting degree are basically the tech type programs from ITT, Colins college, HTI, etc, or what Ive been doing which is the community college route. Most of these tech schools seem to offer a general drafting degree which Im guessing means they lump mechanical, electrical, architectural and civil drafting together. Ive been able to pick and choose what classes I take at the community college at least but now that Ive done the basic classes Im having a hard time finding a civil class where I can get some exposure with land development desktop. I guess my question is what do you guys recommend a student do next after doing some basic CAD classes, I did board drafting in high school as well for 2 years. Im thinking of buying a training program from autodesk on LDD '07 and just trying to get into a firm from there. I know I won't have an associates degree or experience and that will make it difficult to get my foot in the door anywhere but Im almost positive after reading the stories from this post that most of these schools aren't going to really prepare me to be a drafter.

[david_peterson]

It all depends on the program. Ask your instructor if there's a student in the area that finished that program and how to get in contact with him. If you get a response of "I'm not sure where he is" or something like that, that's a bad sign. I still talk with all my instructors as do many of my other fellow students.
If he sends you in the guys direction, ask him. That's the best way to find out if thier program is worth somthing. I have to deal with "Interns" that just paid out thousands to get a BS in Arch from a 4 yr school that don't know how to draw a line in Cad. The program I went thru was a 2 yr AAS degree in Arch Technology. We learned about everything. Mostly Arch, but we got our feet wet in Civil and Mech systems. I also had classes in building codes & specs. Basically I took the 2nd half of a 4yr BS degree in Arch. Oh did I mention that the program also requried that most assignments be done in Cad (you got to pick from Acad, ACA, Revit.......Viz....Pick an Adesk Product we put our hands on it at least once). The General Cad certificate, isn't that good IMHO, but it's better than nothing. Knowing how to put a set of plans together, how to set up files and file structure, and knowing the General Terms of the practice are almost more important that how to draw a line in Cad. But if you know all the stuff listed above, odds are you've already learned that.

[d_m_hopper]

After reading and then browsing the past seven pages, I agree with most of you. When I graduated in 2003 with my Assoc in Drafting & Design from ITT Tech, I found myself in a bit of trouble once I entered the workforce. I remember being asked by my first PM on my first day...you did graduate did'nt you? Very long story in regrads to that question, anyway I was lucky enough to have an associate take me under his wing and help me develop my skills.

I made it a point to learn as much as I could from this guy, when work was slow I read the user manual from cover to cover or would sharpen my skills by messing around in new drawings. I also made it a point to get my BA so that I could go back to that school or any school and teach autocad the way I felt it should have been taught to me.

Now I realize it is difficult to replicate the workplace in a classroom all of the time, but it can and should be done as much as possible.

It has been 5 years since my first cad job, and I have been teaching autocad for a 1 1/2 at the school I graduated from.

I now teach 2 autocad classes in the evening at ITT, both are geared around autocad. One is an intro to the program itself and the other is based around drawing either a residence or small commercial building. The biggest complaint I hear from my students is that most instructors do not understand the programs they teach, this upsets me very much.

I do not claim to be the best teacher, but I do make sure I know what it is that I am teaching otherwise I refuse to teach the class.

Now as a teacher I can tell you that most classes break off into 3 groups:

Group 1:
gets it and eventually they become like teachers assistants

Group 2:
is on the ledge push them to hard and they might fall back into group 3 but nudge them gently and they might soar with group 1

Group 3:
Is the slower group, you need to work with them a bit more but they can be brought around

I believe the 3 groups are linked to learning styles, some students require you show them, others require that you tell them, and finally others learn from a combination of hands on/off. It is up to the teacher to recognize this and to work with each student accordingly.

But in the end it is up to the student to want it. I have taught 100+ students and have watched 2 classes graduate. As an example of a student wanting it, in my intro to autucad class last semseter a student with no prior autocad experience took it upon himself to buy a laptop, the autocad 2008 bible and dedicate any free time to working on projects from his school books. After 22 weeks in school, he is now employed at one of the top Architectural firms in Milwaukee. When he is in class he has become the go to guy for answers if the instructor is busy with other students.

I am very proud of all my students, and remain in contact with each one. I spend a good chunk of my week answering cad related emails, writing letters of recommendation or chatting with them in the halls at school.

[Jane Smith]

I loved my drafting classes, partly because I had good teachers. I did my best to pick up stuff, then quickly became an unofficial teacher's assistant. I didn't have a computer at home, but helping the other students was a big part of my training. Now, I teach coworkers, as needed.

If corporate dumps my contract, I may go into teaching. Who knows what the future holds. Just in case I do go into teaching, I read posts like yours to learn what I can so I will be a better teacher. Thanks for the insight.

[70melbatoast]

Here's my thoughts on this. First some background. I have an Associates Degree from ITT Tech. I took every drafting class offered in High School, I even audited a few (repeated) for no grade because I liked them so much. CAD wasn't offered when I was in school, I learned on the board. I graduated in '92. Out of school I took time off and fell into the working full-time in retail trap for several years. Finally in '98 after several part-time classes in a Community College and realizing I was learning NOTHING, I enrolled in ITT. I will say that although it was very expensive, it was also very intense and rewarding. 4 hours a night, 5 days a week for two years and holding a full time job was not the easiest thing in the world. I'm sure many here are/were in similar boats.

The best thing about the course was that 50-75% of the class time was devoted to using and learning CAD. The course was broken up into 6 semesters, each focusing on specific disciplines (architectural, mechanical, electrical, civil, structural and project management). I even got my first CAD job 6 months before graduation. The biggest complaint I had about the course was lack of 3D learning (I graduated in '00). My class started with 31 people. All but 7 dropped out or quit. It seemed like the course was very well designed to weed out the garbage - for lack of a better term. I'm not trying to blow my own horn here. I'm not trying to come off that way, but I think that there is a definite problem with youth these days. Its hard no not think of your father and grandfather, "When I was your age..."

I am now in my second job into my CAD career. I've seen a dozen or so people come and go in the last 8 years and I have observed several things that stand out in most of them.
1) Ignorance. They tell you what they know, and what versions they use, but in the end, they do not know how to use the software. We have an intern now that is in a Community College now for CAD. I had to show him how to browse for files! That kind of stuff is simply unacceptable. I interviewed a four year grad that took an hour to do a 10 minute test. He interviewed awesome, smart, good personality, etc...but when it came down to it, didn't know how to draw.
2) Laziness. Look it up. Use the internets (sic). One of the first things I try to tell new people is to learn. If you're truly stumped, ask. Make the help file your best friend. A fellow peer once asked me three times in one day "what is the command again when you mirror the text and the text stays readable?" Write it down! Learn it! Get excited!
3) Poor schooling. It is 2008 right? Same intern above types every command. 'Line', not 'l', but 'Line', etc... Someone teaches this. While not incorrect, just not productive. I type many commands. I take the time to find out what the shortcut is, or what the button looks like or where in the menu it is.
4) Poor schooling again. How big is a 2x4? I was once asked. :banghead: If you genuinly do not know and you went to school you should first visit item 2, if that doesn't correct it, go back to your school and demand your money back.
5) Experience or lack of. I think everyone will agree there is no substitute for it. I think even an experienced drafter that comes from a mechanical background and goes into Architectural will survive better than a fresh graduate.Although I learned a ton in school (because I wanted to), I would say that of what I know now, 15% or less is only applicable to school. That might have been a bit of a rant, but this is a subject that is frustrating to me. I work in a depressed area and work is very hard to come by, I can't believe that there are no good people out there.

\pants
\\pants
\\\sighs

[jaberwok]

70melbatoast introduces the fourth group of students - the one that d_m_hopper missed.

Group 4:
Those who simply do not have the mind-set required to understand any form of engineering. The born social workers if you will.
They may start a CAD/engineering/architecture course with good intentions but will never be able to complete it.

[d_m_hopper]

70melbatoast introduces the fourth group of students - the one that d_m_hopper missed.

Group 4:
Those who simply do not have the mind-set required to understand any form of engineering. The born social workers if you will.
They may start a CAD/engineering/architecture course with good intentions but will never be able to complete it.

Then there is this group correct...but as a teacher I cannot give up on this group. Sometimes the switch flips and they get it, when you see this happen and you can...What a good feeling that is, to watch them learn and grow and most importantly gain confidence in themself.

[jaberwok]

Then there is this group correct...but as a teacher I cannot give up on this group. Sometimes the switch flips and they get it, when you see this happen and you can...What a good feeling that is, to watch them learn and grow and most importantly gain confidence in themself.

Yes, it's a magic moment - because it's so rare. :-(

[d_m_hopper]

Yes, it's a magic moment - because it's so rare. :-(

It does not have to be though, unfortunately you either break through or they quit.

[jphillips.88936]

You know I have just finished reading the last eight pages of posts here. The average story is about how the average graduate isn't quite up to par with your typical draftsman. Well in honest opionion I would rather have a green eager drafter step into my office wanting a job, than ANOTHER drafter who THINKS he already knows more about Cad than I do. Now I am not saying I know everything, hell I am still learning new things after 15 years on the job. You have to be involved in education forever, the program changes, the industry changes, the technology changes.

Then if you switch threads and read about all the rogue drafters who doesnt follow the leader very well, does what he wants and how he wants to do it.

Standards are alot easier to teach to a uncorrupted mind than a mind that is already so stubborn they are not willing to change and adapt.

So say what you want about the newbies, but a month of questions and maybe some annoying headaches, will more often than not turn around into a loyal productive employee that works like you work simply because thats all he or she knows.

Some of my best workers come from falling right out of school. I guess bottom line is, dont try and prove to everyone how smart you are or how much better you are. but take the time to train those around you how to be like you. Cause 1 good drafter and 5 bad ones means more work for you to do or fix.

But 1 good drafter and 5 drafters that work just like you can kick the **** out of some projects.

[Misteracad]

You know I have just finished reading the last eight pages of posts here. The average story is about how the average graduate isn't quite up to par with your typical draftsman. Well in honest opionion I would rather have a green eager drafter step into my office wanting a job, than ANOTHER drafter who THINKS he already knows more about Cad than I do. Now I am not saying I know everything, hell I am still learning new things after 15 years on the job. You have to be involved in education forever, the program changes, the industry changes, the technology changes.

Then if you switch threads and read about all the rogue drafters who doesnt follow the leader very well, does what he wants and how he wants to do it.

Standards are alot easier to teach to a uncorrupted mind than a mind that is already so stubborn they are not willing to change and adapt.

So say what you want about the newbies, but a month of questions and maybe some annoying headaches, will more often than not turn around into a loyal productive employee that works like you work simply because thats all he or she knows.

Some of my best workers come from falling right out of school. I guess bottom line is, dont try and prove to everyone how smart you are or how much better you are. but take the time to train those around you how to be like you. Cause 1 good drafter and 5 bad ones means more work for you to do or fix.

But 1 good drafter and 5 drafters that work just like you can kick the **** out of some projects.

I guess I'll go ahead and be the first one to respond to your comments 8) To be honest, I almost forgot about this thread...very little activity recently...but your points are well taken on this end. The only thing I would like to stress is that your "newbie" student would have to be a willing participant in the learning aspect of the training ritual to end up a class-act as you describe. In my role as a CAD Manager, I see all kinds, and you are right...some of the seasoned veterans are some of the worst at trying to make them change their ways...but in my teaching experience, I've also dealt with some real difficult "kids" who thought they knew it all, or didn't really care. It's sad, but the majority of the students taking CAD were in my classes merely because it was a requirement to get the piece of paper they needed for a bigger and better deal. I also see a lot of younger folks already in the workplace who are merely using CAD as a stepping stone to becoming an engineer, because they think that's where the money is I guess. As a result, it's hard finding good candidates today who can be molded into sharp CAD Techs, Leaders, or Managers. In the end, it depends on your "student" and his/her willingness to become something great in this world we call CAD :roll:

[Robert.Hall]

All boils down to one question:
Do you want a pile person or a self managed engineer working on a project?

A well skilled draftsmen is more of a pile person. Finish one drawing, grab another.
An engineer, regardless of cad skill level, will research and add a level of
security to the project.

I fall under both categories. Look beyond the markups!
The most lethal combination in the marketplace is an engineer
with superb cad skills.

I have a pile person working for me.

Yes, I do eat cad manuals for breakfast. Does that make me weird?

[artisteroi]

I chose the cad monkeys for this company, so I developed a cad test using some of my own skills. 20 questions
the average person who walks in looking for a job generally can answer about 8 of those questions and wants 10k more a year than I make.

I have an associates of CAD engineering from Technology Education College. which I guess was probably the best CAD school in the country (www.worldclasscad.com (http://www.worldclasscad.com)).

But most schools teach cad to anyone when the actuall first requirement is the person needs to have an understanding of design. And that really isn't something that can be taught.
If a guy says "I can draw using the computer but can't use a pencil" and graduated at the top of his class he will never be more than average as a cad professional. if on the other hand you see him experimenting with with all teh different tools available, he has a thirst for knowledge and just needs a little time to get comfortable with the system. so take a look at your cad monkey and decide what kind of operator he is.

[Robert.Hall]

I chose the cad monkeys for this company, so I developed a cad test using some of my own skills. 20 questions
the average person who walks in looking for a job generally can answer about 8 of those questions and wants 10k more a year than I make.



Are they job related questions or drafting skills questions?

I like to test out engineering knowledge with my tests.

[artisteroi]

Are they job related questions or drafting skills questions?

I like to test out engineering knowledge with my tests.

I mixed the questions some basic drafting and some higher end job specific. Invaribly it is the job specific questions that they miss.
But to be fair I also gave the test to our current employees and they could only answer 10-12 questions correctly. And once I asked a different question (not on the test) to an autodesk tech rep and he got the answer wrong. so maybe my questions are too hard.
I guess we need a rating system for cad professionals.

[caddster2008]

I received my AAS degree in CAD from ITT Tech in Portland, OR in 1992. I was productive as soon as I hit the street - because, at the time, the program was 20 hr/wk with half of that time in the lab - either manual or CAD (one week manual, one week CAD throughout).

I've taught at many Community Colleges, and even though it falls into the vocational education slot, it is very difficult to get the powers that be to require enough lab hours for the students to really learn anything for their degree. I was hard on my students and flunked many who didn't learn they had to spend extra time in lab.

Unfortunately, most colleges also don't hire people who actually have CAD skills - they hire someone with a BS or MS degree because "they can teach".

Best that you let your boss know now that this person is not a drafter - before you have to pick up all the pieces.

[Misteracad]

I was hard on my students and flunked many who didn't learn they had to spend extra time in lab.
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who expected a certain level of effort put forth, which was reflected in the final grades I gave out. Nothing comes for free and I wasn't afraid to fail those who didn't "get it" either :roll:

Unfortunately, most colleges also don't hire people who actually have CAD skills - they hire someone with a BS or MS degree because "they can teach".
I hear that!!! The schools just don't seem to realize that someone with those credentials probably won't have the skill set necessary to teach CAD effectively, or the desire. In my experience, the colleges' "hands are tied" as I am told, and I can't even hope to be considered for a full-time position as a CAD Instructor unless I take the time and money to get a BS...at a minimum...with no guarantees afterwards. Personally I'm too far along in my career to think about that kind of commitment just for a "what if" scenario. I’m sorry to say, as much as I like to teach and share what I know, that kind of bureaucracy steers me away from pursuing anything long-term in the educational sector.

[oliveoil]

I will have to agree with the many of the other posters. The college programs tend to not prepare you for the real world. It did teach me some basic engineering concepts along with a variety of drafting techniques from different disciplines. However, a couple of my classes were still teaching manual drafting. That helps me now in creating fluid sketches, but useless in day to day drafting. It is a sad state of affairs. It is probably why the level of skill is so varied across the industry. I've worked in some places where the CAD designers actually do design work, and others where redlines are the name game. What it boils down to is how hard you are willing to work. I was pretty slow when I exited my college program in 2002, and now CAD is second nature (maybe too much so). If the new hire isn't putting in the work and void of a desire to learn, maybe he doesn't need to be in the business. It is probably to soon to tell.

[Ryder76]

Here's my 2 cents...

The title of my degree is Associate in Occupational Technology. I earned it from 1990 to 1992 and left school with a moderate understanding of Autocad and Microstation. We did 2 years of board drafting and 1-1/2 of CAD ( 1yr ACAD 1 semester Microstation). There were other classes in engineering and traditional college classes to round out the curriculum. The last year I was a Co-op with Bechtel and got some good experience on the board and with both software.

I'm a late bloomer and had 15 years experience in the workforce (construction & engineering technical admin support). That gave me a big advantage over my fellow students. I already had a clue.

All this said the college curriculum left alot to be desired. My drafting/cad instructor was knowledgeable and had come from the industry, but there just wasn't enough in the way of different disciplines being taught. We drafted mostly cast and machined parts and had one Architectural project(knew I didn't want to do that when I got done - no offense). The board drafting has served me well. IMHO it should be a requirement for all persons seeking CAD degrees or work.

I'm an electrical drafter/designer and learned all I know about electrical on the job. Basically, if a person isn't willing to put in the time and effort to learn on their own they will not do well in this profession - or any other for that matter.

No one - straight out of school with no working experience - whether they have an AS or BS is ready for the real world. They have only shown that they are capable of learning. It isn't easy getting experience (you know that thing you get right after you need it?), but many new guys are worth the time and effort and some are not. That's just the way it is - always has been, always will be.

OK - I'm rambling now...:) sorry.

[Brian Myers]

The schools just don't seem to realize that someone with those credentials probably won't have the skill set necessary to teach CAD effectively, or the desire.

No... I can't find that to be true. I've taught MANY people with Masters and Bachelors degrees that went on to excel in their software, loving every minute of it. I've seen people with advanced degrees do some AMAZING things with their software and grin like kids as they explain what they accomplished. The Skill and Desire, it's there.

The problem isn't desire... it's MONEY and TIME.

I was offered a job at ITT a couple years ago as I looked into it as a supplemental income position. But I found that what I would get paid in that position barely paid for my GAS to drive there in the evenings, that's not counting justifying my time away from my family. In another real example: In my last job I worked with two instructors for a strong area design school, each of which had their own careers in Architecture and Interior Design. They BOTH had to leverage time off from work, spend long hours in preparation, and they both were compensated only marginally well by their standards for these efforts.

Points being:
1 ) You should at least have a degree equal to what those you are teaching are trying to achieve. My BS degree will never be enough to allow me to teach at a full Masters program. Why? Because you are most likely going for different career paths. This leads to...

2) College/University isn't about teaching CAD. I could teach my 8 year old CAD if I could just keep his focus long enough (no, I'm not joking... I could). You are teaching a future profession, a knowledge from a career path. You are teaching from years of experience in the field they want to achieve. An Engineer doesn't (in most cases) want to be a drafter. Neither does (in most cases) someone getting their Masters in architecture. YES that drafter may be able to teach the principles of the CAD program, but can they teach the essence of using it as a tool for the position that Architect or Engineer to be would use it for? Likely not unless they've achieved that job function themselves.

I'm not saying that having that degree is a MUST... but colleges typically are looking for certain "types" of individuals that had similar desires, dreams, and qualifications when they themselves were kids. Instructors you would strive to look up to and be like. There is a good chance that with my career goals and accomplishments I AM the type of person a person coming out of junior college would want to emulate and be like. But a person going to Penn State would likely NEVER want to emulate my current career path. That doesn't mean any of us are wrong or worse and that doesn't mean I couldn't teach a mean university level CAD course... we are just different in our dreams, personalities, and ambitions and colleges want to pair these individuals up.

Which leads back to time and money. I'd love to teach at a junior college. I'm just yet to find that job that would pay me enough to justify it. I'd REALLY love to teach at a major university, but due to what I've written above that will never happen. The same is true for those with the Masters degrees, etc.. most will not be able to justify the money/time it takes away from their own lives and career objectives.

CAD is just a software program. I understood CAD better than most people when I was 18... really. But I wouldn't have been qualified to teach at a college. Now that I have the background I likely COULD teach at a university level and get the right passion across and teach a CAD course well... but I don't have that feeling of "DESIGNER" or "ENGINEER" graced upon me (we know what that feels like) I feel more like "the CAD Manager & trusted company guy" (you know what that feels like too). That's not the individual type Harvard is trying to graduate in most firms.

So... it is mandated, but these qualifications right or wrong are there to make sure that a match of qualified individuals and students that want to be like them is achieved. It isn't a perfect system, but eduction & equivalent wages typically enforce these standards and match up with career goals and dreams. :beer:

[Misteracad]

No... I can't find that to be true. I've taught MANY people with Masters and Bachelors degrees that went on to excel in their software, loving every minute of it. I've seen people with advanced degrees do some AMAZING things with their software and grin like kids as they explain what they accomplished. The Skill and Desire, it's there.
Hey Brian, I'm not sure if this response was a misunderstanding to my initial statement, or if I myself am misunderstanding what I read here, but just to be clear...what I was describing in my previous post was the fact that INSTRUCTORS with the required BS and/or MS degrees, are not typically interested in teaching CAD...they have bigger and better fish to fry. It's typically the seasoned professionals like me who may or may not have a degree, but do in fact have the industry CAD experience, who are called upon to teach CAD in the schools. I have an AAS on top of 23 years in the industry, which started with board drafting, so the schools love me and what I can convey to the students ;)

However, it is still my position based on my own experience, that these schools will not or cannot hire the same seasoned professional FULL-TIME, regardless of how good a teacher they are, or how many great reports or evals have been completed by the students over the years commending that instructor, if they do not have a BS degree as a minimum. Believe me, if they would, I probably would have changed careers years ago, but I digress :| I think we are on the same page here, I just wanted to make sure my previous statements weren't misinterpreted.

I was offered a job at ITT a couple years ago as I looked into it as a supplemental income position. But I found that what I would get paid in that position barely paid for my GAS to drive there in the evenings, that's not counting justifying my time away from my family. In another real example: In my last job I worked with two instructors for a strong area design school, each of which had their own careers in Architecture and Interior Design. They BOTH had to leverage time off from work, spend long hours in preparation, and they both were compensated only marginally well by their standards for these efforts.
I guess I should consider myself fortunate...the teaching positions I have had, paid very well. On more than one occasion, I worked for community colleges who paid $40-50/hour for non-credited programs. That's the ticket right there...minimal time commitment for maximum return. No tests, no grading homework, no attendance nightmares...if the student wasn't there 80% of the time, they didn't get credit for the course...done deal. Just show up and teach whoever shows up...couldn't be any easier!

Credited programs on the other hand are a MAJOR time commitment. Between the tests (a Final Exam is mandatory, but Mid-terms are pretty typical as well), daily or weekly homework grading (depends on your syllabus and your own expectations from the students), keeping track of students' tardiness, overall attendance, etc., not to mention the overall preparation before, during and after the class, one might wonder if it is truly worth the time and effort...especially when it is merely for supplemental income as opposed to a full-time career! I could go on about how difficult it is for an Adjunct to come in and teach a class that he/she has typically never taught before, using someone else's syllabus, someone else's choice of text, but I'd sound whiny lol :lol: Instead I'll just mention that the credited classes I've taught have paid up to $1000/credit, with most classes being of the 3-credit variety. Here again, that's no chump change, so it all depends on what your goals are I suppose.

Now that I've disclosed that information, I better run and hide before I get hit with a half-eaten donut!

[oliveoil]

I like your posts. I thought about the teaching sector myself for awhile. However, I do not have a BA. Even if I did, I think that I would feel uncomfortable teaching the class. I have and still love teaching people how to use AutoCad in the work place.
Having a backround in multiple disciplines has given me an unique perspective on how to get things done... Back to teaching AutoCad. It is just a piece of software that anyone can pickup if they poke around in it enough. Also it is taught as though it is an actual career path. It will get you in the door. However, if you don't take the time to learn what you are drawing, you will be condemned to a life of redlines and no respect. The new drafter should use all that he or she has learned in life and academics to excel. They should could continue to use math(even if AutoCad will do much of it for you), learn Excel, and actually read the engineering documents that they are working through. Even with the drive, they will probably have quite a few doors shut in their faces in today's world. Too rough? Just trying to be honest.
If they keep their heads up they will do fine. Enough of this rant. 'Til next time.

[oliveoil]

Tips for the new or relatively new drafter:
1. If you are new, don't do it. Do anything else but drafting.
2. If you are not new, learn as much as you can. Learn, learn, learn... I
cannot stress that enough. If you like the CAD stuff, learn all about AutoCad
(even aspects that you don't use or think you will ever use). Then go into CAD
management. If you like the design stuff, find a niche like surveying, tool & die
design, or piping design, etc. Also, you could go back to school for engineering
or architecture (yes, people actually do this). You are always better off the more
you know.

I know that these are probably not covered in Lynn Allen's tips and tricks seminars, but I feel the need fill in the aspiring designers of the world of the closing opportunities in the design world. No kidding, many engineering firms are becoming redline factories. Luckily my current employer can see beyond that and has given me some design opportunities. But, I think many places see a drafting degree and see a CAD jockey. They think that is all you can do. So just take all of the other classes (math, statics, etc.) you took for your degree and throw them out the window. It is sad. Sorry if I sound jaded. I do take pride in my job and people are starting to take notice. However, the job is changing. End rant...

[Robert.Hall]

If you have an engineering degree, don't take a drafting job. It is great that you know AutoCad, however do not build your resume as a drafter. I agree, you will get stuck
in drafting jobs that seem like dead ends. Take your other skills and get a job.

[oliveoil]

I'm feeling windy today. I somewhat agree with CADKitty the #14 poster of this thread. I may have been a little hard on the curriculum from my college program. I did get a good base education and most were pretty good instructors. For example, one was a retired engineer (taught the engineering related courses) who had pretty good grasp on what was practical as I have found out on the job. Another, was an 20+ year experienced draftsman(taught the CAD night classes) who not only knew everything about CAD, but computers. I did not always agree with what was being taught, particularly the manual drafting in a couple of the classes. But, you can benefit a little bit from everything that you learn. I still, however, stick by my guns when I say that I learned most of the CAD stuff on the job. It is only natural that you will be more proficient by doing anything all day, everyday. Hopefully this is my last comment on this topic. You are all probably tired of hearing it.

[dreaded.knight]

I graduated with an AAS in Design and Drafting. While I wasn't a speeding bullet right out of school, I was proficient enough to make a living. After reading this thread, I thought I should probably put in my 2 cents worth.

Regardless of what is taught in the programs today, it wouldn't cover everything that the surrounding community would want for a draftsman. Therefore, you would always have complaints. Where I was educated, they simply tried to give us a good base to build upon. Ensured that we could use AutoCAD and Microstation (this was in 95), RCAD and a couple other pieces of software. As they knew, that we would all need further training.

What have I learned in the 14 years since? More than I can post here. One thing I've picked up recently however, is that BIM (Revit or whichever) is the end of draftsman. Which is going to be a mistake. It's going to be a mistake because honestly, no offense intended, 99% of engineers / architects have no idea how to make a decent, well laid out drawing. We, as an industry, have been sacrificing quality in favor of speed and quantity. Remember, engineering drawings started out as works of art.