PDF printing problems

[Chad Smith]

Since we no longer have the PDF writer, I have been forced to go back to the Adobe PDF writer, but I am getting printing problems.

As you can see from the screen shot of the PDF, the bottom of view 2 and the top of view 3 are missing and then there is a stretched bottom part of view 2 in between views 2 and 3.
This is just one flavour of error that I get when printing to PDF, nother thing that can go wrong is missing parts of views all together.
Errors are not happening with every sheet, but a good portion are.

Could this be a deliberate attempt to get Autodesk users to ditch PDF in favour of DWF. :roll:

And before you make the suggestion, we cannot use 3rd party PDF printers anymore as there are incompatibility problems with our large format printers. These printer require a 'proper' PDF format to be able to print consistently without error. The printer techs aren't interested in looking at printing errors on the printer if the PDF isn't in true Adobe PDF format. PDF's now have to be from Adobe products in our office.

[Chad Smith]

After another attempt, I get the missing view problem.

[studio3p]

Is this a problem unique to that file/project? What happens if you turn off the shadows? What version of Acrobat are you using?

[ita]

And . . . is anyone else finding that the dwf export is greyed out in 2D . . . or is that just me? Cannot determine the reason why!

BTW . . . For us, Acrobat 6.xx is generally OK with the exception that it concatenates bold text that has been widened by a factor.

[GuyR]

Almost looks like some sort of memory problem?

I don't understand why you can't use the pdf writer from V7? Is there anything stopping one of us putting it up on a website for download?

Guy

[david.kingham]

I would switch to PDF995, I always had problems with other pdf printers and we have zero problems with 995, and it's only $9.95...think how much time you have wasted, this will pay for itself instantly

[Allen Lacy]

I assume you've seen Leonid's post about the Revit PDF writer (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=19413)? It's still available and usable, just not supported anymore.

[aaronrumple]

We've had isses where the PDF created with the Revit writer won't print when generated from rel. 8

Anyone get other PDF writers to batch a whole project to with each sheet to a different file name?

[SCShell]

I would switch to PDF995, I always had problems with other pdf printers and we have zero problems with 995, and it's only $9.95...think how much time you have wasted, this will pay for itself instantly
In addition, this program has a nice little security feature to lock your PDF's. I only wish the default wasn't "vertical" layout. I can't seem to rotate it when saving so that it opens horizontally. But, for $9.95.......

Steve

[mlgatzke]

Steve; Unfortunately, vertical is the default format for all PDF files.

Chad; I've had this happen a lot. I think the problem would gone if you turned off the shadows. The PDF format seems to have problems with massive raster images.

[BWG]

I would switch to PDF995, I always had problems with other pdf printers and we have zero problems with 995, and it's only $9.95...think how much time you have wasted, this will pay for itself instantly


I have had problems with the newest release of 995 when print to fit the page. It really screws up the drawing. I now use CutePDF Writer which is free of charge and haven't had the problems. It does take noticeably longer to print with this driver and I don't know how it would work if you are sending a large batch job to it. Haven't tried that yet.

[iru69]

I'll throw in my favorite PDF printer - PDFCreator (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator) - a free opensource app - so far it's worked great (the 8.1 RC version is especially good).

But I think that (and similar posts) misses the point. PDF printing that works flawlessly is *extremely* critical for Revit, both practically and as a supported "feature" (way more so than Autodesk's beloved DWF). When we got the Revit demo from our Reseller, one of the first questions asked was whether it prints to PDF (ArchiCAD does!). At the time, it was a very big affirmative "YES!" Now it would be an embarrassing "no..." followed by an awkward silence.

You can use any PDF printer for a Microsoft Office doc and get flawless results, but Revit printing is much more complicated. If Autodesk doesn't "officially" support PDF printing, (whether it's their "unsupported" PDFWriter or a third-party app), Autodesk's going to tell you to go complain to 995 or CutePDF, etc. when it doesn't work. And how do you think they're going to respond? They don't even know what Revit is. No one takes responsibility, and Chad, et al., are left high and dry. It seems like that's a situation that needs to be fixed.

[Jit]

What resolution are you printing at ?

We have had problems with 1200 dpi and when reduced to 600 dpi, the problems solved (for us anyway)

give it a shot.

[mlgatzke]

To all here: There is a big difference between PDFing a Revit file and PDFing an Office document. First of all, the size of the print - and therefore the total image size - is completely different. I've tested by printing a 30"x30" PowerPoint document with a high-resolution image on it and ran into the same "dropping" problem. It seems that the problem is not with the application we are printing from, but simply with the PDF format itself.

Anyone else have results from testing they've done?

BTW, let's be careful where we're placing the blame in these difficulties. When there are problems, testing should be done to establish viable information. Comparing Office documents to Revit documents is not comparing "apples to apples." The type and quantity of data is completely different.

[Chad Smith]

Joseph: This is not a unique problem with this project. It happens on a good portion of other projects, and once it happens it continues to produce the error for the same sheet, that is until I can find a solution :).
Turning off the shadows has no effect, that's one of the first things I tried, see attachment.
I am using version 6.0, after just recently moving up from 5.0.

Guy: I'm running with a gig of RAM so I thought that would have been enough.
I can't use the PDFWriter that came with 7. As soon as we started using it with 8 it started crashing Revit. We never had a problem with the PDFWriter when using it back in 7.

David: As I originally said, we can't use a 3rd party PDF solution anymore. Our printer companies will not offer any support unless it is an Adobe PDF issue.

Jit: I have given it a go on the default setting of "Smallest File Size", see attachment.

I just can't get a decent print out of Revit. So far my printing problems are:
Large Format Printer: Missing view parts (like in PDF), and getting stray lines appearing.
PDF: Missing view parts.
DWF: HUGE file sizes and extremely slow screen regeneration when viewing.
Shadows: This is unbelievably slow. 10-20 mins for just 1 sheet to be printed is just friggin' ludicrous.

These issues aren't just isolated to my PC, they happen on others in the office.
I figure if I can get a reliable PDF print then thats a start.

This is becoming so painful I'm about to cry :cry: .

[GuyR]

As soon as we started using it with 8 it started crashing Revit.

That's weird. I'm using it and it's working well. Does the journal file give you an error message when it crashes?

Yes shadow plots can be quite slow. Given your problems with all types of Revit printing though to me it suggests something else is going on.

Have you got lots of HD space on the partition your print spooler uses? Usually just your C drive.

Are KarelCAD your reseller? Email the Revit file to them and see if they can print it to PDF.

HTH,

Guy

[Chad Smith]

Have you got lots of HD space on the partition your print spooler uses? Usually just your C drive.
Is 13.8Gb enough? ;) Yeah, there is plenty. I also have a 1.5GB paging file too.

I will send the file off to KC support as a test.

[Jit]

Hi Chad

I am using Adobe 7 pdf writer and it seems to be ok

I found Adobe PDF 5 more stable and also my shopfitter didnt have any issue with printing those adobe 5 pdf's on his design jet 450c but with adobe 7, he is having alot of issues.

I would suggest try out a copy of adobe pdf writer

[James.Lupton]

Have a look at Jaws PDF creator it works well with most software. We use it in preference to Adobe PDFwriter.

It's a bit more expensive than 995 but produces high quality print standard PDF files as well as smaller web format with reduced resolution.

[Chad Smith]

After playing around the with driver settings for quite some time now, I have finally some to a combination that will get a proper PDF output. While the resolution isn't as high as I would like it to be, it will have to do.

I will have to see if it produces consistent results.

[GuyR]

I will have to see if it produces consistent results.

So come on Chad fess up!!

Could KC print it to PDF? What PDF settings worked? Any word from the facotry on what the cause is?

Can you produce a simple example .rvt that gives you a problem and post it. We can see if anyone else can replicate or fix it.

Guy

[Chad Smith]

In the end, I couldn't get the RVT file through to KC because of the stupid Nortons Anti-virus mail scanner which keeps quarantining my files, the IT guy is looking into it. Something has changed in the settings, because I haven't had any problems in the past.

I should have listed the driver settings in the previous post, sorry about that. The ones that seemed to affect the output are:
1. Checking the 'Print directly to the printer'
2. Setting the 'Print Quality' to 300dpi

I have also set my 'Default Settings' to High Quality.

I've mentioned the missing view portions to the factory before but in relation to printing to the wide format printers. As you could probably guess, the reply was that it was the printer's problem, not Revit. And you guessed correctly again, the printer techs said it was Revit's problem. It's one of those 'It's not my fault' problems.

I have attached an example file for others to test. It's a little big, but the smallest I could get it down to.

[PaulB]

Chad,

I have had numerous problems with pdfs and I have 5 different pdf printers to choose from.

The strangest thing that has happened is that the drawing, containing 3 rendered perspectives, was printed to pdf using one of the printers then opened in Adobe reader to check that it all came out, all well. I then printed the pdf file to my printer and only 2 of the 3 perspectives was printed. I tried printing again from Revit only to get the same result. In the end I had to choose a different pdf printer to print from Revit.

I also had problems where the print company couldn't print my pdf files and yet I had no problem.

Not much help but you're not alone.

Regards,

Paul

[GuyR]

Here's my take, not sure if it helps you much ....

What I did: -all printing 300DPI and fonts embedded raster set to presentation.

1.. Printed to Revit PDF writer from 238.rvt - it didn't work
2.. Isolated the problem - printed to PDF writer -separate files -worked
3.. printed sheet3 to PDF995 for comparison -note different file size.
4.. printed to DWF as separate files as comparison
5.. printed to Revit PDF writer using multi-sheet workaround - NOTE file size compared to separate PDF's.
6.. printed to DWF writer multi-sheet file - note file size in comparison to separate files
7.. printed to PDF writer using 1200DPI as multi-sheet PDF -note file size
8.. printed to DWF writer using 1200 DPI as multi-sheet DWF for comparison.

How I fixed the Revit file

Downloaded file.
Opened and tried to print to PDF with Revit PDF writer. It was taking forever to print and seemed to be hanging. So killed Revit.
Identified sheet 3 as the problem.
Tried opening each individual view on sheet 3.
Identified SW elevation as particularly slow and therefore likely the problem.
Deleted and recreated SW elevation.
Printed to PDF. As fast as expected and didn't hang Revit.
No problems with output.

I've uploaded the files and PDF's to my website. here (http://www.r-e-d.co.nz/revit/chad/)

My take on the problem.

For whatever reason Revit seems to get screwed up sometimes with views and shadows.
My solution has been to delete these views and recreate them and that has without exception (so far) fixed the problem. Note DWF had the same problem printing the view.

I don't know why you can't use the Revit PDF writer but worked just fine on my system and produces smaller PDF's than PDF995. Like you I don't see DWF as a viable solution but interesting to note file size comparisons. I found DWF no faster printing these files than PDF. The 1200DPI DWF took the longest -16 minutes.

My conclusion at this stage is it's a Revit problem. I'd have to say given the relatively low complexity of the model printing does seem to be quite slow with this model. Was it originally a V7 or early V8 model?

Send to to the factory and see what they say...

HTH,

Guy

[sohocad]

Just load your file and printed to Adobe PDF with standard default setting..work ok from here?

[beegee]

I was able to print using the Revit PDF Writer 4.2 without any problem.

Interestingly, printing at 300 dpi, the Site Plan (Colour raster ) printed in about 15 seconds, producing a 5.2 Mb file, but the Elevations took 5.5 minutes to print, however with a file size of only 2.6 Mb. Go figure !

[GuyR]

soho,

How did you generate such a small pdf? That's about 15% the size of a 300DPI pdf generated with the PDF writer?

Guy

[Chad Smith]

Guy, this project started life in 8.0, BUT the template that it was started from was started back in 5.0.
The average time to print an elevations sheet like in this project with shadows is about 20mins for me. It seems to hang, but it does eventually finish. Since I'm the designer in the office, my projects don't get much more complex in detail than this, pretty simple eh.

I find that the DWF files are usually 150% larger than the PDF's and are about 10x slower at viewing in the viewer.
I've mentioned to Autodesk before, that they need to remove their misleading advertising on the DWF Viewer website where is says "Small, fast, and secure". Yeah, whatever.

Since the missing view portions happen with both PDF and large format printers, I too believe this to be a Revit issue.

[Chad Smith]

How did you generate such a small pdf? That's about 15% the size of a 300DPI pdf generated with the PDF writer?
That's about the size I am now getting at 300dpi with Adobe PDF.

[GuyR]

15 seconds

wow, that's fast!! What's going on here?

All my printing was on a 3GHz P4 laptop on WinXP SP1. Plenty of HD space.

That's about the size I am now getting at 300dpi with Adobe PDF.

Looks like it's time to purchase acrobat. Wouldn't multi-sheet PDF with acrobat be fantastic!!!

I too believe this to be a Revit issue.

Well, except none of us have been able to replicate the missing areas on the PDF. I had troubles printing the model but when it did there was no issues with the actual pdf's.

The average time to print an elevations sheet like in this project with shadows is about 20mins for me.

I didn't get close to this except for the initial model (at which point I killed Revit) and printing to 1200DPI DWF's.


Guy

[GuyR]

BUT the template that it was started from was started back in 5.0.

Trying a virgin V8 template and copying the model into the new template would be interesting.

Maybe that's the problem?

Guy

[beegee]

>>I find that the DWF files are usually 150% larger than the PDF's and are about 10x slower at viewing in the viewer.
I've mentioned to Autodesk before, that they need to remove their misleading advertising on the DWF Viewer website where is says "Small, fast, and secure". Yeah, whatever.
>>.Here's my comparison test results :-

File: 0238 Elevations. ( No repair or cleanup done - Opened in RB8 20050523_2300 )
DPI: 300.
PDF Time: 5 min 30 secs.
DWF Time 4 min 15 secs.
PDF Size: 5184 KB
DWF Size: 552 KB

The really impressive thing is that the DWF was set for multiple sheets combined, whereas the pdf is just the single elevation sheet.

The DWF even looks a bit better than the PDF, despite the small file size.

[GuyR]

One clear winner.
The DWF even looks better than the PDF

Come on beegee!!! Against the Pinebush PDF writer yes.Against the adobe writer, PDF is a clear winner 360K v's 552K for the DWF.

OUCH!!! I wouldn't have expected that big of a difference. Don't you love marketing bull***t.

Guy

[Chad Smith]

Heres a PDF / DWF file comparison, both printed at 300dpi.

Both have the same clarity on screen, but for size and regen speeds, PDF's a winner here.

[GuyR]

Heres a PDF / DWF file comparison, both printed at 300dpi.

I guess with DWF as it's a vector format the DPI refers to the raster regions. So a straight line drawing will be smaller but with any amount of shading etc DWF loses it's advantage. And given the huge differences between these 2 files, PDF's seems superior at printing these raster regions.Interesting.

DWF Composer v's Acrobat? Given PDF is a defacto standard what advantage does DWF have if it can't compete on file size?

Guy

[Chad Smith]

I guess with DWF as it's a vector format the DPI refers to the raster regions. So a straight line drawing will be smaller but with any amount of shading etc DWF loses it's advantage.
Bingo!!!

I've been saying this (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=9511) ever since DWF has been implemented into Revit.
Until we get true vector output from Revit into DWF, DWF just doesn't stand a chance.

I've spoken to the DWF developers and they are saying it's a Revit problem, and the Revit developers are saying it's a DWF problem (at least that's the way it was last time I brought it up). I asked whether the two departments even talk to each other, but got no reply.
Autodesk keep saying that DWF is the way to go, but can't produce consistent proof.

[iru69]

I've spoken to the DWF developers and they are saying it's a Revit problem, and the Revit developers are saying it's a DWF problem (at least that's the way it was last time I brought it up). I asked whether the two departments even talk to each other, but got no reply.
I hope what that means is that the Revit developers aren't spending too much time on DWF. I hate to think that there's a Revit programmer sitting in a corner every day working on DWF issues when he/she could be working on Roof tools, Group tools, etc...

[GuyR]

Until we get true vector output from Revit into DWF, DWF just doesn't stand a chance

Particularly as the vector graphics market is hotting up and there are already some seriously cool technology out there or coming online.

Well this Using solid fills causes the use of raster display techniques for an entire view.

comment from Leonid does suggest it's a Revit problem doesn't it? If it can't differentiate between raster and vector on a per view basis then how is DWF to vectorise it?

What interests me is acrobats ability to do such a good job of handling raster output compared to DWF. WOW!!

Guy

[westcad]

I am using CutePDFWriter (available on web for free) and it works fine albeit with ADT2006

[rthomas.83816]

When I have problems plotting to PDF. I plot first to DWF then Plot to PDF from the DWF. Works everytime. I hate PDF's but some of my customers just cant deal with DWF.