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View Full Version : Calling all! educators - What do you teach



glee.94356
2005-10-04, 05:49 PM
Are there any educators out there?
What's this sub forum for if nobody post to it?
It would be good if educators would post here. A good way for those in the field to communicate day to day realities that may help an educator structure their CAD classes to better reflect different disciplines approach to cad.
I teach part time at a junior college and am curious as to what other educators focus on in creating the next generation of caddies.
Er, what do you call people utilizing BIM? Bimmers?
Oh well. This forum looked lonely.

Opie
2005-10-04, 06:28 PM
Gerald, I see you're always trying to make everyone feel better. ;)

It would be nice to see what the educators have on their minds.

glee.94356
2005-10-04, 06:56 PM
I try. I try.
:)

Heck, this forum has so many people willing to help and contribute. I keep asking people in other forums to head on over.
What's better than a bunch of people discussing issues and working them out. Much more productive this way. Though I seriously need to not spend all my free time here. :)
Not.

But it would be good to have healthy discussion with educators and see what they are emphasizing. What they leave out because they think the industry will train grads in the field.
How those in the field think about how educators see their role. But nothing is going to be meaningful without the educators.
If educators are just holing up in their offices putting together course work without knowing what goes on in the field, it ends up with firms having to spend more time and money training grads for their short comings.
When I was teaching CAD, my goal was to train people who would be productive in an architectural environment. It helped that my class was called "Autocad for architects" and not just Autocad for beginners etc. But eventually the college stopped those classes because they wanted to just emphasize the general autocad classes for beginners. So your basic copy, no lineweights, draw a line/ polyline, block, stuff.
If only beginning classes would talk about the differences in application of Autocad in the different AEC disciplines.
Ok. I have a one man discussion here.
C'mon. Somebody else chip in.
If more educators got involved, who knows maybe one day a Nobel prize for cad.
Damn. I crack myself up.

Opie
2005-10-04, 07:03 PM
At least you got the title more informative for the student to decide. ;)

I agree. I did not go to school to learn drafting or design. My background is more in the infromation systems. I, unfortunately, picked up my design and drafting skills in the office. I came from a surveying, in the field, background. I was just more interested in the computer side of things.

Sorry, I don't know where I was going with all of this. I'll stop rambling.

glee.94356
2005-10-04, 07:20 PM
Naw, that's fine. We all ramble about our experience in all the different threads, especially in the CAD management threads. It helps give people a perspective on where we are coming from.
I learned CAD in college. Well I took the classes but I was doing so many design competitions that the lecturers let me not attend classes as long as I completed the coursework. So I learned CAD by doing my work over the weekends or evenings way towards the end of the semester/ quarter after finishing everything else. Then everything else once I started working. But I was lucky, the cad instructors were all part time teachers who worked in the field. So they had solid advice.
I didn't start teaching until I felt comfortable enough to think I would not be eaten alive by the students.
Heck, even students taking CAD classes could contribute to this.
So sad. That educators don't have enough free time to hang out in these forums.
What are we doing to them????
Free them.

jaberwok
2005-10-04, 07:33 PM
Well, I'm a recent ex-part-time-lecturer in CAD but, being in the UK, I doubt that my experience will be of much help or interest to most of you.
Here, you either pay £250+ per day to a VAR or £100 (ish) a year for 30-36 2-hour evening classes. If you opt for the publicly funded 2-hour sessions, you're pretty much stuck with "AutoCAD for Dummies".

glee.94356
2005-10-04, 07:53 PM
No, that's interesting.
See my mind was stuck on colleges and universities. You just brought up the private courses and classes taught by for profit organizations or CAD resellers.
See discussion.
How do these courses compare to those in universities?
Frankly I have never taken those (was asked to teach them once but didn't have the time with other commitments and classes).
So how many people have taken those courses and what did they get out of them.

Or how do we factor these as compared to those in Uni's. Are they in a way to make up for the short comings of what universities offer????

Been to London. Nice. Understatement???

jaberwok
2005-10-04, 10:21 PM
I've only been to two one-day VAR courses.

The first was an upgrade course fromMstation 5.5 to Mstation 95.
{~pauses to wash mouth out~)
I was never a real user of Mstation but I went along with a group of staff guys - me being a contractor - and, strangely, I picked up the new features about 5 times as quickly as the others. What does this prove?
Anyway, I thought the course and instructor were poor considering the cost. But I wasn't paying. :-)

The other was a public "open day" event showing an early (DOS) version of 3DStudio.
I fell in love with it. :Puffy:

glee.94356
2005-10-04, 10:51 PM
Hey,
I like the change of title.
Hopefully more people pick this thread up.
Yup, I learned 3D studio from a bunch of college mates. Banging out stuff on pentium 90s (well 486s first). By the time 3D studio Max rolled around, the bosses had moved me off it to managing projects. Figured my time was better spent designing, detailing and managing.
Actually the first 3D models I ever created were on Microstation. Rendered on I forget what. It was meant to tie into microstation.
When I switched to autocad, I saw no reason to be on microstation.
I have not been to an autocad VAR seminar. I did attend the big rollout of R14. I sat next to the founder of autodesk. I forget his name. He smelled of money and had some funny looking gadget he held. For hearing better or something.
What does this post have anything to do with the above? Just rambling, till an educator pokes his/her nose in here and gets the ball rolling.

Clyne Curtis
2005-10-05, 02:00 PM
Interesting thread...to not be a bimmer is a bummer! I assist with Revit instruction in the Construction Management program at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. I particularly enjoy working with the students in this progaram because not only are they learning a GREAT architectural design package, but they are actually learning how to build structures at the same time! We are trying to beat the standard drafting degree idea that "yeah, I can draw it with cad, but, I'm not quite sure how it goes together". So far it seems to be working pretty good. Demand is high for our students, particularly those with a good handle on Revit. How about the rest of you? What seems to be working in your arena?

Thanks,

Clyne

glee.94356
2005-10-05, 03:08 PM
Hi Clyne,
Nice to see a full time educator here.
I'm not a bimmer yet. Just learning and trying to apply it to my office.
Vanilla Autocad 2004 (but with my own custom menu's etc). I used to teach autocad at a junior college but with it's application as an architectural tool. So how we coordinate with consultants, layering structure, proper x-referencing and cad standards. Plus I would throw in an intro to 3D Max and modeling in autocad. (contrary to popular believe, it's never too much to do in one semester). The point was to create students who would be productive in an architectural office, be flexible enough to adapt to that firms' standards. This being a junior college, and their first semester using cad. I placed half the class for summer intern jobs. The rest were transferring to 4 yr uni's.

I'm glad to see that you're cutting edge and pushing your students.
It is a good idea that enables a student to see how it all goes together. Constructing a model as opposed to just modeling (i.e building a cardboard model or using regular 3D)
I gather that yours is a design class but uses Revit as a modeling/ design tool? Actually this is nice to see. Taking Revit beyond just a drafting class. I can see why it's so popular. Sometimes I feel the students are way ahead in technology and just waitting for the appropriate courses to come along.

That being said, I know that some educators feel that students have their whole life's ahead of them in the working arena to learn the professional aspects of their work life. I.e. professional practise, working with consultants, contracts etc. So design is paramount.
Yet, those in the field get new grads every year who wished they had learned some of these aspects while in college, so they did not have to struggle as much.


Do you know if there are other lecturers teaching Revit in a professional practise class? That is get them to start thinking about what it will be like to apply Revit in an office environment. Learning to collaborate and coordinate with team members and MEPs/ structural consultants?

You brought up a good point about CAD classes. Maybe some of us have been looking at this in too much of a traditional way. CAD classes where we expect students to learn the tools and be able to function in a professional environment.
Maybe students start out with CAD classes to learn the basics of the tool and then progresss to their professional practise/ working drawings class where they learn how CAD/BIM is used to intergrate a design among the AEC team members. Bring up CAD standards there. Something that can be achieved in a 4-5yr program. But not really in a vocational school/ junior college program.

What are your thoughts?
We're hoping this thread or forum can serve as a way to cross pollinate. Between educators and those in the field. In a constructive way. So I apologize ahead of time if I write anything that may appear offensive.
Please share your ideas. Again, I do think that your Revit as a design tool is a very good idea. Applying Revit as a computer aided design tool. Maybe because the technology has reached the point where it can be used as such. There are other design studios that use Form-Z, archicad etc.

Maybe some of the ideas of team collaboration could be utilized in design exercises that require a team of students to share a design and work within workset/workgroups in Revit??
You probably are doing this already.

stefan.boeykens
2005-10-18, 07:12 AM
We teach SketchUp, AutoCAD, Photoshop, Flash, ADT, VIZ Render, Illustrator, Acrobat... more or less in that order.
This is for students of architecture (faculty of engineering).

We were totally AutoCAD based, but I introduced SketchUp and will introduce BIM in the curriculum. I am inclined to switch to Revit or ArchiCAD, though, and skip ADT...
I still think that a basis of AutoCAD (2D and some 3D) is beneficial for the students. Even if they don't use AutoCAD in practice (many still do), it'll help since everyone needs to exchange AutoCAD files sooner or later...

In Belgium, most architects use AutoCAD 2D and VectorWorks, although ArchiCAD, ADT, Microstation and recently Revit are being used more and more.

glee.94356
2005-10-18, 04:21 PM
Hi Stefan,
So are those programs used as a design tool or as a drafting tool?
What is your universities approach to it?
What type of industry standards are introduced to students? Obviously what's done in Belgium will be different than in the states. I'm curious to know.
Thanks for posting.

glee.94356
2005-10-18, 04:22 PM
Oh, your signature is impressive. That's a lot of programs to juggle and teach.

stefan.boeykens
2005-10-19, 07:44 AM
Our syllabus is online. It's partly inside a closed community (using the BlackBoard system at our university, but that requires a student or staff ID) and partly on our own server, which is open. We keep the manuals grouped (independent of the exercises) and then use them throughout the different course programmes.

It was purely AutoCAD based in the past (and a little bit of VIZ).

I added SketchUp into the mix and we also extended the presentation assignments (partly digital/web and partly for printwork).

We don't aim to have a course that fully prepares them for professional work in an architects office, since that is quite narrow focused, from our designer's point of view.

We rather want to introduce them to several techniques and approaches for the use of computers in architectural design. The CAAD courses are connected to the design studio assignments and to the course of design methodology.

And the signature... well, it's a hobby to keep looking at several applications. I am an avid ArchiCAD and SketchUp user, but also teach AutoCAD and VIZ. And I recently bought a Mac Portable, to get to know the other side more in detail. I do research and programming (next to my CAAd teaching).

Some links:
Our new page with manuals and student homepages (where they can display their assignments):
http://students.asro.kuleuven.be/new_menu.phtml

What is still missing is the text on Building Information Modelling, which I will teach in the beginning of next year. I plan to give a generic overview and add short step-by-step examples from ADT, Revit and ArchiCAD in the mix. Expect it to be online somewhere in february.

An older page of mine, where I export a CAD model (made in ArchiCAD :) ) into several rendering applications to have some technical comparison of the conversion process and some insight in rendering capabilities.
http://www2.asro.kuleuven.ac.be/asro/English/HOME/SBs/render/render.htm

And one of my most popular efforts (which is getting dated now):
a searchable database of CAD and 3D-applications:
http://www2.asro.kuleuven.ac.be/asro/English/HOME/SBs/3dcad/search.asp

I plan to update the database in the course of my PhD research, later on this (or next) year.

stusic
2005-10-19, 02:12 PM
Hey All,

I've been reading the previous posts and want to share some thoughts of mine. I've been using AutoCAD since 1996 when I sat at my uncle's house in Connecticut playing around with Release 12. He is an industrial designer of some flavor and this cool new program sparked my interest. I learned quite a bit in those couple years and even did some work with him on some 3D design projects.

Well, after returning to Macon, Georgia, I continued to use AutoCAD at a job I found and decided to enroll in AutoCAD classes at our local tech school. It was very disappointing. I don't believe I really learned anything; on the very first day I was looking for some practice work, so I found a couple of models that we were to lay out, dimension, etc... Well, come to find out those were the drawings we were to do for the final-- and here I was with them modeled in 3D, laid out and ready for print on the first day. After that incident, I got out of doing my work by completing a rendering my instructor was to do. This got me wondering how you could learn what you need to know to function in the "real world" as a drafter and not have to be in school for six years...

To teach a CADD course is going to compromise something just because you have a limited amount of time with your students. I know you can cram a lot of information into a student's sponge of a brain, but with the numerous CAD programs and the varieties of discipline paths they could choose to lead their career, its hard to find a balance between in-depth learning to make them ready for the office and generic teaching to leave them career options. With as much knowledge and experience as it takes to master AutoCAD, how can you even begin to teach a discipline? Or design standards? I've been using AutoCAD for almost 10 years now and I still don't know anything.

My tech school now teaches AutoCAD, Inventor and 3DS Max. I think it's great they're expanding the curriculum, but I have to ask myself, "How much are these students really learning?" If you learn the basics of AutoCAD and Inventor, you may have choices as far as what programs you'll be looking to use when finding a job, but you're not going to be as proficient as you could be if you just learned one program. And I wouldn't even worry about teaching CAD standards; I have never worked for any firm that used the same standards as another firm. Never. And since the National CAD Standards are still being revised, I don't think its appropriate to be teaching something that's going to be obsolete by the time they graduate.

As a former student, briefly a CAD instructor and as a working CAD Operator, I think it would be most beneficial for the student to learn one program at a time (that's just my opinion) and learn the skills they are going to need in the local job market. Sure, learn polylines, learn what extrusion is, but also learn to properly plot and scale a drawing. Learn to use xrefs. Learn about coordination between disciplines.

I'm tired of rambling, but those are my thoughts. It's a fine line to walk; balancing knowledge and marketability.

Thanks,

Phillip

glee.94356
2005-10-19, 09:29 PM
I guess it's not so much an attempt to try to teach students everything there is to know about cad. If you check out Stefan's web sites, it's mainly using the tool as a design tool. But they get to learn how to use different programs as part of it.
I know many universities are doing that now.
The difference is that in the field many people expect schools to teach them cad standards. I agree that different firms and AEC disciplines do tend to use the programs differently and all have their own standards. There tends to be some commonality though. The use of x-refs, blocks, layers, layouts (vs. sheet files) etc. Yet not everyone uses them the same and not everyone agrees on how to use them.
So in a way I do agree that universities cannot be expected to teach cad standards since even the different industries do not have a common standard to teach against.
But the tools can be provided that they are aware of these standards and the basic tools used or necessary for these standards to function.
At least they are learning.
Given many caddies learned the way you did or similarly. But the market is changing and so are the software. What worked in the past may not correlate with how the future is going to be. If we can even anticipate what's going to be the project delivery method of the future.
But what is interesting is that we all have similar and yet differing ideas of what education can and will do for CAD.
Heck, just reading through Stefan's web pages was a lot of fun for me.