grading

[chrisw.94380]

I am new to lisp and this is my first major lisp routine and I need help. I am attaching a drawing to illustrate what I am trying to do and also a little bit of code that I have started off with. What I would like to do is for the user to pick two points on the screen enter an elevation for each point and have the slope calculated and also put into the drawing between these two points. Also I would then like the option of being able to pick a point along the line and then have it calculate the elevations for me for that particular point like in the drawing. There are equations that we use right now so if i am able to put those into lisp that would be great. I am using Land Desktop 2005 and am using this for a grading plan in a civil engineering firm. Thanks in advance for your help.

[chrisw.94380]

I have been working on this a little more and need just a little help. I think I will take this step by step so I will be able to accomplish this project. Right now with my code it prompts the user for a start point with a start elevation. Then for a second point with an end elevation. Now I do not know how do get it to calculate the slope by taking the distance between the two points for the run and the elevation difference for the rise. If anyone could take a look at my code and give me some help I would appreciate it.

[imblueflies]

I'll give you a hand with this lisp file but I've got to ask you if you are utilizing the 3d polylines under the Terrain menu? I understand what you want it to do and I'll give you a hand with the calculation parts and try to explain what I'm doing as I go. I'll post something by tonight for you.

--Mike

[imblueflies]

Ok, i'm running into a few problems but I'll still try to figure it out. To be honest, if you're using Land Desktop you should really be using the 3D Polyline commands under the Terrain menu. I use LDT and Civil 2004 every day and I'd be lost without them.

[Opie]

I have been working on this a little more and need just a little help. I think I will take this step by step so I will be able to accomplish this project. Right now with my code it prompts the user for a start point with a start elevation. Then for a second point with an end elevation. Now I do not know how do get it to calculate the slope by taking the distance between the two points for the run and the elevation difference for the rise. If anyone could take a look at my code and give me some help I would appreciate it.
Chris,

Bear with me. I do not have C3D or LDD or any other Autodesk Vertical Application.

From what I can gather from your dwg file you are annotating in a profile view.

Is the horizontal scale and vertical scale the same? (As in the drawing is drawn 1 to 1.) Or is the horizontal and vertical scales different, such as 1"=20' horizontal and 1"=2' vertical?

Is there a basepoint for your stationing and elevation datum? The reason I ask that is that you can use the coordinates that you pick for the first and second points to get your station and elevation. You can then calculate the slope from those two picks instead of the four inputs you are requesting.

In your second lisp file you are trying to set a variable named distance. This is a problem due to the fact in lisp there is a function named distance. This would possibly give you an error and crash your program.

I'll post somemore in a bit.

[chrisw.94380]

In my drawing it is plan view of lots for a subdivision. Everything in model space is drawn 1:1. I have used 3d polylines before also. Basically what my task involves is creating a grading plan. When I design the subdivision I will design elevations at all grade breaks so that the water will flow in the subdivision. What I would like autocad to calculate for me is all of the intermediate points between these grade breaks. I am trying to do this in steps but ultimately my goal. Is for autocad to calculate all of these values for me by clicking on places on the line. After it calculates this I would like for it to insert these elevations on the right layer in a leader. This can save me alot of time because it can take me anywhere from 40-80 hours on a subdivision by doing all of these calculations by hand and then going in and inserting the text. I know this may not be clear if you are not in civil engineering so if you have questions please let me know as I do greatly appreciate your help.

[Opie]

Look at the attachment. It is not completely debugged. There may be bugs or idiosyncrasies that you may not like. It is commented so you may be able to go from there to change it to your needs.

HTH

~EDIT~
This is probably not what you were requesting then.

If you have the 3D information on your lines/plines then you could extract the elevation from those lines to create your annotation. Maybe the attachment will help you accomplish your programming needs. Edit it to fit.

[Opie]

Chris,

I am in civil but use other third party software for my modeling.

Are you using 3D or 2D lines/polylines in your design?

On labeling, will you need to continue to pick along the line more than once to label?

[chrisw.94380]

I am using 2D lines. Everything is in plan view not profile. In my .dwg file I want to first click on the first point and provide that point with an elevation. Then I want to click on the second point and specify an elevation for that. After this is complete I would like for it to annotate the slope. All of the places in the drawing that I have a pline with 300.00 above it are things I would like the program to calculate. Basically these are elevations for a lot in a subdivision. It would calculate all of these and place the pline and text on the right layer also. For instance if you clicked on the on one of the lines and you needed to calculate the elevations the first elevation would be .5 higher than the elevation of the line that you provided the two elevations for. I am not sure if I explained this clearly but let me know what questions you have..and thank you very much for assistance.

[chrisw.94380]

here is the updated lisp

[Opie]

Chris,

Let me know if this is what you are trying to accomplish. I have not commented each part, lack of time. ;)

[chrisw.94380]

I wrote down everything that I wanted to do so far and have further organized my thoughts.

So far the routine works good I have made some minor changes but overall is good. What I need to do now is have the text be the right scale. In our office we make the text size 8 % of the horizontal scale in the drawing. How do I write something that will check the drawing scale then use that scale to find the text height? If the scale is 1:1 then I would like it to prompt the user for the scale since they have not setup the drawing correctly. As far as when you click on a point and then have to click on a text insertion point is not really necessary. I think it would be faster to click on a point and have a preset leader so that all of the leaders will be the same. Also to put the leader and the text on the right layer in our office we use c-grad-text for this. The next thing would be to put the slope on the right layer which is c-grad-text also. After this is all said and done instead of clicking on the different insertion points I would like to click on the first line that is perpendicular to the line that we used to find our slope. After that I would like it to look something like this

<change in elevation FL> store this number
<distance to next point>
<change in elevation FL>
<distance to next point>
<change in elevation FL>
<distance to next point>
<change in elevation FL>

All of these values would need to be stored because they would be the same for the rest of the lots. When it asks for distance to next point that distance should be along the line perpendicular to the line used for the slope. So when calculating the elevations that are not on the green line it would simply take the first elevation where the lines are perpendicular and then add these user inputed values to that. Once the first lot is done I would like to be able to click on the next perpendicular line and have it put all 4 leaders with the correct values in by using all the values that were setup in the first lot. I am pretty sure I am being confusing so please let me know what you think and if I am heading in the right direction. Once again this is for designing a grading plan for a subdivision in plan view. Thanks everyone for their help especially richard as he has been most helpful.

[Opie]

I wrote down everything that I wanted to do so far and have further organized my thoughts. That's a start. ;)
What I need to do now is have the text be the right scale. In our office we make the text size 8 % of the horizontal scale in the drawing. How do I write something that will check the drawing scale then use that scale to find the text height? If the scale is 1:1 then I would like it to prompt the user for the scale since they have not setup the drawing correctly. How do go about setting the drawing scale? Are you using the dimension scale or the ltscale?

As far as when you click on a point and then have to click on a text insertion point is not really necessary. I think it would be faster to click on a point and have a preset leader so that all of the leaders will be the same. This allows the user to place the elevation above or below the line. Is the baseline always horizontal?

Also to put the leader and the text on the right layer in our office we use c-grad-text for this. You need to set the current layer to the correct layer prior to creating the entities, or place the layer within the entity definitions the program creates. You also need to make sure the layer is already within the drawing prior to using it. This will also include linetypes. They need to be in the drawing prior to use. Reduces the crashing.

The next thing would be to put the slope on the right layer which is c-grad-text also. See above.

After this is all said and done instead of clicking on the different insertion points I would like to click on the first line that is perpendicular to the line that we used to find our slope.Are all of your lot layouts perpendicular? I would think it would be easier for the user to pick the points to annotate. But I won't be using the program much here.

After that I would like it to look something like this

<change in elevation FL> store this number
<distance to next point>
<change in elevation FL>
<distance to next point>
<change in elevation FL>
<distance to next point>
<change in elevation FL>See above.

All of these values would need to be stored because they would be the same for the rest of the lots. When it asks for distance to next point that distance should be along the line perpendicular to the line used for the slope. So when calculating the elevations that are not on the green line it would simply take the first elevation where the lines are perpendicular and then add these user inputed values to that. Once the first lot is done I would like to be able to click on the next perpendicular line and have it put all 4 leaders with the correct values in by using all the values that were setup in the first lot. I am pretty sure I am being confusing so please let me know what you think and if I am heading in the right direction. Once again this is for designing a grading plan for a subdivision in plan view. Thanks everyone for their help especially richard as he has been most helpful. You lost me here.

[imblueflies]

I've got a lisp that automatically picks up on elevations from 3dpolylines, asks you to pick the insertion point for the grade callout and what type of callout it is (FG/FL/TW/TC/FS...etc.) then inserts the elevation value from the 3dpolyline into the block. As mentioned, a 3dpolyline would need to be drawn first, but if you are using Land Desktop then there's no reason you shouldn't be using 3dpolylines already. They are one of the most important tools I use on a daily basis.

It works well and at the beginning of the lisp it asks the user for the scale of the drawing and stores it for next time. The lisp uses the drawing scale inputed by the user to figure out the correct scale to make the grade callout. I made it independent of any drawing variables because it's possible to have an overall site plan sheet at 40 scale and then the grading plans be at 20 scale. They both need a little bit of cleanup before I could post them but if they sound remotely usefull to you just let me know.

[chrisw.94380]

Yes I know see that I should be using 3d polyline but the lisp I have right now does the same thing so now I just need to add to it. Do you understand what I am trying to accomplish with the grading plan? It is hard for me to explain without actually showing someone in person I guess. After I have the elevations along the line I would like to annotate some lines perpendicular to it with elevations that are based off of the original elevation. Please let me know what specific questions you have thank you.

[chrisw.94380]

Here is another dwg file that will hopefully help to explain a little better let me know what else needs clarification. thank you

[chrisw.94380]

oops forgot to add the file.

[Opie]

Chris,

After answering the first point/elevation and the second point/elevation, you want to pick the first lot line intersection. Is this correct?

How is the side lot line drawn based on the front lot line? Is the side lot line perpendicular to the front lot line? If it is not perependicular, how do you decide the side lot line angle based on the front lot line?

Are each spot along the side lot line the same elevation as the front / side lot line intersection? If the elevations are different how do you decide those elevations?

[chrisw.94380]

Yes the front lot line and the side lot line are perpendicular. With deciding the spot elevations. The distances need to be prompted for the first lot. Then these distances will be used for the following lots. As far as the elevations go they will be just adding a constant onto the elevation at the intersection of the front line and side lot line. There are four elevations for each lot line and you should be prompted at each one to ask for the difference in elevation from the FL. These values should also be used for the other lots. Basically I just want to be prompted for the first lot and put in all the information and have the lisp calculate the spot elevations and insert the plines automatically after I specify everything for the first lot line.

[imblueflies]

Basically I just want to be prompted for the first lot and put in all the information and have the lisp calculate the spot elevations and insert the plines automatically after I specify everything for the first lot line.

Wow, you're wanting a lot from this lisp aren't you? I'm having a hard time picturing where your example lots in your sample drawing would actually occur in real life. I do grading plans for single lots and larger subdivisions too and I've never seen an almost flat, and perfectly straight street with perfectly formed property lines. I can't see this lisp working for you around corners or on any street with a decent slope. One problem I see, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the left-most lower property corner is determined by the FL and then each spot elevation towards the back of the property is automatically determined by default values then couldn't that be a problem when you get to the next property line to the right? If the street is sloping down at 5% or so then, with the way I understand your request, wouldn't the pad be sloping down at 5% to match the street? Where I do my work here in Southern California that's considered cross-lot drainage and isn't allowed.

Please help me understand if I'm off track here but at this point I just don't see it's usefulness compared to the power of 3dpolylines and using the Grading Wizard. I'll mull it over tonight if I can and see if I can figure out anything for you but I might not be able to come up with that perfect solution you're looking for.

Feel free to IM me too if you need to, talk to you later Chris.

[Opie]

Yes the front lot line and the side lot line are perpendicular. With deciding the spot elevations. The distances need to be prompted for the first lot. Then these distances will be used for the following lots. As far as the elevations go they will be just adding a constant onto the elevation at the intersection of the front line and side lot line. There are four elevations for each lot line and you should be prompted at each one to ask for the difference in elevation from the FL. These values should also be used for the other lots. Basically I just want to be prompted for the first lot and put in all the information and have the lisp calculate the spot elevations and insert the plines automatically after I specify everything for the first lot line.
Chris,

The following snippet is from the grading.lsp file I posted here
(while (/= POINT NIL)
(setq POINT (CALCPOINT FIRST_POINT SECOND_POINT))
(if (and (/= POINT -1) (/= POINT NIL))
(LABELPOINT POINT)
; <- Here is where you could place an additional sub routine
; to annotate the side lot lines to your liking
)
)

You will need to look at the labelpoint sub routine to see where you need to remove the text insertion point portion of the sub routine. Remember, if you remove the text insertion point, you will need to calculate where the insertion point is to be placed. you will also want to make sure it matches the correct angle you want, as well as, the correct location based on the intersection of the lot lines.
(setq PTLIST (list (car POINT) (cadr POINT))
STRING (rtos (caddr POINT) 2 PRECISION)
INSPNT (getpoint POINT "\nSpecify text insertion point: ") ;<- this is where the text insertion point is specified.
; If you remove this user input, you will have to calculate this point.
TEXT_ENTITY (vlax-invoke SPACE 'ADDTEXT STRING INSPNT TEXTHEIGHT)
)
(vlax-put-property TEXT_ENTITY 'ROTATION ANG)
(setq PNT1 (polar INSPNT (- ANG (DTR 90.0)) (* 0.25 TEXTHEIGHT))
PNT1 (polar PNT1 (+ ANG (DTR 180.0)) (* 0.5 TEXTHEIGHT))
PTLIST (append PTLIST (list (car PNT1) (cadr PNT1)))
TBLEN (textbox (entget (vlax-vla-object->ename TEXT_ENTITY)))
TBLEN (- (car (cadr TBLEN)) (car (car TBLEN)))
PNT2 (polar PNT1 ANG (+ TEXTHEIGHT TBLEN))
PTLIST (append PTLIST (list (car PNT2) (cadr PNT2)))
)

[Opie]

Chris,

The following snippet is from the grading.lsp file I posted here
(while (/= POINT NIL)
(setq POINT (CALCPOINT FIRST_POINT SECOND_POINT))
(if (and (/= POINT -1) (/= POINT NIL))
(LABELPOINT POINT)
; <- Here is where you could place an additional sub routine
; to annotate the side lot lines to your liking
)
)


To create the side lot lines annotation, I would create a sub-routine to calculate those points. Some of the variables would need to be global to allow those values to be used on the next side lot line. You might want to pass the front lot line angle, the intersection point with the front lot line and the side lot line. You could reuse the LabelPoint sub routine to label each point along the side lot line. You could copy and modify the CalcPoint sub routine to do the specified distances along the side lot line.

You might want to also remember the first_point and second_point variables are now three dimensional.

Think modular routines.

HTH

[Opie]

You should also notice that the Get3DPoint sub routine will work with 3D points as well, for when you decide to go the 3D polyline route.

[imblueflies]

Wow Richard, I finally got a chance to check out your lisp and it's pretty amazing. I'm so used to using 3d polylines that I didn't think this much was possible without them. Quick question....when I tried it out in a test drawing the text came in real small, where in your lisp could I put a section for it to use the current text style? In our office we already have text styles set up for 10,20,30 & 40 scale to make it easier for the other employees. I have another lisp routine that I got some help on and the first thing it asks you is for the drawing scale, then it uses that value to determine a few scaling variables for inserting blocks or text the right size but I don't know how to "tweak" that type of setup to select the correct text style.

Our text styles are called "RE_10_Scale_Dims" and so on for 20, 30 and 40. I'll attach the lisp file I'm referring to regarding asking for a drawing scale from the user. If you have any time do you think that's something you could help me out with? The first lisp is for inserting a grade callout along a 3dpolyline, it calls to another sub lisp used for storing the drawing scale from the user (I'm trying to think modular like you said) and it scales my block up to the correct size. The second file is the sub lisp for your reference. Any help would be apreciated.

Thank you so much,

[Opie]

Wow Richard, I finally got a chance to check out your lisp and it's pretty amazing. I'm so used to using 3d polylines that I didn't think this much was possible without them. Quick question....when I tried it out in a test drawing the text came in real small, where in your lisp could I put a section for it to use the current text style? In our office we already have text styles set up for 10,20,30 & 40 scale to make it easier for the other employees. I have another lisp routine that I got some help on and the first thing it asks you is for the drawing scale, then it uses that value to determine a few scaling variables for inserting blocks or text the right size but I don't know how to "tweak" that type of setup to select the correct text style.

Our text styles are called "RE_10_Scale_Dims" and so on for 20, 30 and 40. I'll attach the lisp file I'm referring to regarding asking for a drawing scale from the user. If you have any time do you think that's something you could help me out with? The first lisp is for inserting a grade callout along a 3dpolyline, it calls to another sub lisp used for storing the drawing scale from the user (I'm trying to think modular like you said) and it scales my block up to the correct size. The second file is the sub lisp for your reference. Any help would be apreciated.

Thank you so much,
Mike,

Thanks for the compliment.

Not everyone is comfortable in using 3D drawings. Some have never used it, others prefer to not use it. You have to create routine that others will use. Sometimes that means making the routines remove some thinking on the part of the user. Not the best solution but it usually means the user will use the routine.

Here is a revised scalecheck routine.

(defun C:scalecheck (/ us precision msg)
(setq precision (getvar "luprec")) ;; Set display precision to units precision
;; if you want this to be different then
;; replace the (getvar "luprec") with the integer
;; you want to use

(if (= ds nil) ;; if drawing scale {ds} is not set
(setq ds 10.0) ;; set drawing scale {ds} to 10.0
);end if

(setq msg (strcat "\nEnter Drawing Scale <" (rtos ds 2 precision) ">: ") ;; set the value of msg
;; convert drawing scale to string
us (getdist msg)) ;; get user input distance
(if us ;; if user answered the previous
(setq ds us) ;; input, then change drawing scale
);end if

(princ (strcat "\nThe Drawing Scale Is " (rtos ds 2 precision))) ;; display new drawing scale
(princ)
);defun

Now that you know the correct scale, how would you convert that scale to a string? Then how would you concatenate the strings to make the "RE_10_Scale_Dims"? Answer those two questions and we'll see where we go from there. You might want to create a new thread since we seem to be getting off topic of the Original Post.

[imblueflies]

Thanks for your help, I should be able to mess with this one in a couple days because I'm swamped at work. When I get back into it I think I will start a new thread.

Thank you!

[Opie]

Thanks for your help, I should be able to mess with this one in a couple days because I'm swamped at work. When I get back into it I think I will start a new thread.

Thank you!
I'll check back after you have some time to think about it.

[Opie]

Chris,

Do you have anymore questions? Are you satisfied with the results?

[chrisw.94380]

Still working on it right now.


(while (/= POINT NIL)
(setq POINT (CALCPOINT FIRST_POINT SECOND_POINT))
(if (and (/= POINT -1) (/= POINT NIL))
(LABELPOINT POINT)

(defun PADIST ()
(setq FRONTOFPAD (getreal
"\nSpecify distance to front of pad: "
)
BACKOFPAD (getreal
"\nSpecify distance to back of pad: "
)
BACKOFLOT (getreal
"\nSpecify distance to back of lot: "
)

I copied the calcpoint subroutine and named in padist. Then i was trying to get it to prompt for the distances along the side lot line. These distances would have to be relative to each other. Also with the text insertion where it draws the leader I would like for it to do that just once then have all of the leaders be the same size as that. Right now I am not sure what you mean by modular. If you could please help or explain I would appreciate it. Also I put FRONTOFPAD, BACKOFPAD and BACKOFLOT at the top where the global variables are supposed to be .

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[Opie]

Still working on it right now.


(while (/= POINT NIL)
(setq POINT (CALCPOINT FIRST_POINT SECOND_POINT))
(if (and (/= POINT -1) (/= POINT NIL))
(LABELPOINT POINT)

(defun PADIST ()
(setq FRONTOFPAD (getreal
"\nSpecify distance to front of pad: "
)
BACKOFPAD (getreal
"\nSpecify distance to back of pad: "
)
BACKOFLOT (getreal
"\nSpecify distance to back of lot: "
)

I copied the calcpoint subroutine and named in padist. Then i was trying to get it to prompt for the distances along the side lot line. These distances would have to be relative to each other. Also with the text insertion where it draws the leader I would like for it to do that just once then have all of the leaders be the same size as that. Right now I am not sure what you mean by modular. If you could please help or explain I would appreciate it. Also I put FRONTOFPAD, BACKOFPAD and BACKOFLOT at the top where the global variables are supposed to be .

Chris,

The reason I am saying think modular is to have a routine that does one thing and that one thing well. Then you can plug that one routine into a larger routine. Once you get a library of routines, those routine can speed your development of future routines.

I'll get back to you on the routine.

[chrisw.94380]

thank you for your help I will try to read some more in my books so I can work on this lisp a little more.

[chrisw.94380]

any more ideas on this?

[chrisw.94380]

Alright. I am gonna start up this thread again. Please let me know if I should start a new thread or continue this one. I would like to add some code to the lisp I have going here. If I do not need to post a new thread I"ll be posing code either saturday or sunday. So please let me know if I can do it here or have to start a new post. Thank you

[03xtreme]

I'm a landscape architect, withing a firm of about 100 people there are about 13 of us L.A.'s here in the office, just as back ground....

This is a very unique way of looking at grading. It's interesting and/or common that you set ridge's and valleys for water to flow and grade from spot grades like you are doing.

However I'd like to add some suggestions to maybe help you grade...

I would recommend if you aren't already, to start the grading after the lots are layed out with respect to existing grading. then do a quick layout of in 2d to get cl geometry of the roads, process a an ldt profile with a template from the cl geometry and existing surface and then input the contours into a grading drawing from the surface the profile makes

Once you have proposed road grades you can manually or digitally set garage floor elevations and all the other elevations of a house based on a max min pitch of driveway to the garage floor. we have an excel spreadsheet to do that, we ping the proposed surface for elevations either side of the drive where it intersects the edge of proposed pavement (well it's actually .01 offset towards cl to be sure you are in the gutter line) and then put that into an excel spreadsheet that does the math and gives you GF (garage floor)

much of the time we do trace grading for concept and then tweak it in cad. i hope this might help you and if you are interested ask.

(ldt allows you as you are probably aware, to offset by slope or by slope and grade, great tools) we do all of our contours line/arc/line join to pl then do earth work with faults etc.

[imblueflies]

(ldt allows you as you are probably aware, to offset by slope or by slope and grade, great tools) we do all of our contours line/arc/line join to pl then do earth work with faults etc.

I love 3d polylines! I do civil design work all day long at work and the 3d polylines have become more useful than my left hand. I've tried to explain this to Chris but I think he's looking for an "easier" solution that calculates for you what you could figure out real quick with a 3d polyline. I see what Chris wants from his lisp routine but don't have the knowledge to help him out any further than he already is.

If there was a way to utilize 3d polylines inside of lisp routines I think that would be the best of both worlds but as of right now I don't know how you call up the command with lisp. Does anyone know how to do that? There doesn't seem to be an actual command line command that you can type in to start the 3d polyline commands that are under the terrain menu......actually, I don't think any of the commands under most of the land development menus can be activated from the command line, and that's the trouble. If somebody figures that out a whole world would open up with new possibilities.

Take care,

[Opie]

Hey Mike,

A "vanilla" Acad 3Dpolyline can be called from the command line. It can also be created through Lisp/VLisp/VBA andprobably a few others. Have you lloked at your menu files for the commands you are referring to? The menu file must know the command for it to be able to execute the command.

[imblueflies]

Opie, the "Plain Jane" 3dpoly command doesn't have the same features as the ones under the LDT menu. When you excecute a command from that menu the command line shows "LDD" as what the command is called.....no matter what menu item you pick, if it's a LDT menu command it always seems to come up "LDD" so if I type LDD on the command menu I'll start the last land desktop command I used.

Good idea about looking into the menu files though, I will have to check that out.

Ok, just check out the land.mns file and boy do I feel like an idiot! I can't believe it's been sitting there all along and I've just overlooked it. I'm going to have some fun trying to figure out some things that didn't work in the past but now just might be possible. Opie, you're my hero.

[Opie]

Opie, the "Plain Jane" 3dpoly command doesn't have the same features as the ones under the LDT menu. When you excecute a command from that menu the command line shows "LDD" as what the command is called.....no matter what menu item you pick, if it's a LDT menu command it always seems to come up "LDD" so if I type LDD on the command menu I'll start the last land desktop command I used.

Good idea about looking into the menu files though, I will have to check that out.

Ok, just check out the land.mns file and boy do I feel like an idiot! I can't believe it's been sitting there all along and I've just overlooked it. I'm going to have some fun trying to figure out some things that didn't work in the past but now just might be possible. Opie, you're my hero.
You are welcome, but you don't need to feel like an idiot. You have to start somewhere. Wish I could help more, but I don't have any of the verticals to peek at. ;)