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View Full Version : Confused office thanks to CAD rep...Revit vs. ADT 2006



chrisdone
2005-10-19, 02:11 AM
Ok, I read several archive threads about this and everyone seems to be on board with Revit.....my biggest concern is regarding 2-D drawings......actual construction drawings. I do not need a 3-D model to tell me what I am drawing. I know exacty what to draw in 2-D.....I"m really hesitant about this conversion if Revit is not as good as ADT 2006 in the 2-D mode.

I'm game to learn a new program that will speed up production time. What I am not game for is mickey mousing around with 3-D just to get my 2-D drawings out.

So, with that being said......what is the more efficient program for drawing strictly in 2-D?? And somebody convince me that the 3-D tool is not going to take me more time. I'm having a hard time justifying that a construction document set will be faster to do even when I do a 3-D model. Also, the line weights, layers, line types, etc..... are very important. I want to be able to pick a line, and change the properties of that layer (dashed...diff. line weight, etc.)

Give me some direction......as I saw someone else state before, I don't want to go gung ho on this program if its going to turn out as a side show bob to ADT.. again.

Thanks guys!!!

Mike.Perry
2005-10-19, 01:03 PM
Hi "chrisdone" (Sorry, I don't know your real name)

Please note I have *moved* this thread from the Software (http://forums.augi.com/forumdisplay.php?f=117) forum to this one as I believe it would be better served here.

Thanks, Mike

Forum Moderator

Brian Myers
2005-10-19, 02:52 PM
Can you give us more background on yourself and how you use CAD?

Each program has their own strengths... many people believe Revit is better for Design firms and companies that assign multiple people to a single project.

ADT might be better if you do a lot of custom 2D work where your symbols must look a certain way (like a specific look to a window, wall, etc).

You can be productive using either program, but it depends on how you use CAD. For myself ADT works better with the way my boss likes to see certain things drawn (he's "old school" and likes to see our drawings look almost exactly how he's produced them over the past 30 years, I've customized ADT to achieve this specific 2D look which would be much more difficult to achieve in a 3D program like Revit). ... but under a different circumstance I would quickly change to Revit....

chrisdone
2005-10-19, 09:35 PM
Yeah, my boss is kind of the same way... old school. He is very into the "traditional architectural standard". He sells our "product" through 3-D wireframes and watercolor renderings when necessary. He is not a huge fan of the realistic renderings, unless they are absolutely terrific (translation.....very time consuming).
Then we usually proceed with detailing 2-D elevations and some sections.


There is no doubt that our 3-D guys will want to dive into this stuff immediately... but I am on the mangement side of the DD, CD, and CA phases of projects. Therefre, it does not seem logical for me to spend time on 3-D.

Scott D Davis
2005-10-19, 10:10 PM
But see...thats the point. Spending the time on 3D is producing all the plans, sections, elevations, schedules, perspectives, 3D Axons, etc for you. Revit is not about creating a model and then redrawing everything in 2D. How much time on the DD, CD, and CA phases of a project to you spend coordinating your work? This is both internal coordination (does detail callout actually point to the right detail?0 and coordination with other disciplines. (does that Ductwork fit inside my ceiling space?)

You could be producing a model that is fully coordinated (no more checking detail references) and spit out a perfect hidden line or wireframe perspective that your boss could "color up" by hand or with watercolors. It would literally take the lasre printer longer to spit out the paper than it would for you to create the perspective. You won't need to wait for your boss to give the "go ahead" to proceed with 2D elevations, sections, etc, because they are already automatically produced from the model.

In your first post, you talk about wanting to just pick a line and change the layer or linetype.....good news for you on the Revit side of things: there are no layers. You don't have to worry about setting them up, managing them, or getting them to display correctly in a viewport. Lineweights and line styles are controlled by Object Styles, which makes it really easy to set up standards for the way your drawings read. Once you do this once (or use the out of the box settings) you never have to do it again. Of course, you do have the abililty to change the way an individual line here or there is displayed, but it's not through some archaic layering system.

Beyond all the facts that Revit is a very good modeling and drafting tool, and will guarantee that your documnets are always coordinated, the 3D Building Information Model can be so much more....it can produce cost estimates, material take offs, automatic spec generation, enery calculations, structural calculations, and more. This isn't just about "drafting" a set of plans anymore.

aaronrumple
2005-10-20, 12:12 AM
Here's how it breaks down The attached shows a typical wall section. I've broken out the drawing that was automatically generated from the model.

You'll see that the detailing is almost no work at all. Note that the brick joints are a "linetype and space automatically.

Of course this has a fully coordinated elevation and plan. The elevation has no detailing other than the notes. (...and excuse those, I'm working from home and don't have our custom all caps font loaded.)

An addition section would take be about 2 min. to complete with details and dimensions.

In addition the shown building had 2 levels until last week when the CM dept. VE'ed it to one level. It took about 5 min. to shift all the building to one level and update all related details and dimensions.

Brian Myers
2005-10-20, 12:43 AM
Yeah, my boss is kind of the same way... old school. He is very into the "traditional architectural standard". He sells our "product" through 3-D wireframes and watercolor renderings when necessary.


But see...thats the point. Spending the time on 3D is producing all the plans, sections, elevations, schedules, perspectives, 3D Axons, etc for you.

You won't need to wait for your boss to give the "go ahead" to proceed with 2D elevations, sections, etc, because they are already automatically produced from the model.

This isn't just about "drafting" a set of plans anymore.



In these statements you'll find some notes of interest.

First is "Traditional Architectural Standard" and "Spending the time on 3D is producing all the plans, sections, elevations, schedules, perspectives, 3D Axons, etc for you." This doesn't necessarily go hand in hand depending on your needs and office.

If you only need a basic level of detail Revit can actually be overkill. If you are simply drawing floor plans then Revit likely isn't something you would need if you are using ADT already. A person doing a Watercolor (especially if they are in your office) might be able to finish the Watercolor long before the construction drawings or model is completed just based off of the original designer sketches. BUT... this wouldn't be a typical office.

If you are already creating 3D models or you do complicated projects then Revit is likely your best choice for design and project coordination.

In short (and this is my opinion): In a traditional Architectural office Revit is likely the better program assuming you do a "standard" level of detail and where a page of "standard" details just inserted into the drawing simply isn't enough. The real advantage of BIM is the project coordination and the time savings that occurs as the project advances.

ADT is just that... a first class drafting program. If you insert large amounts of pre-drawn details, can quickly draft your elevations and floor plans, use mostly low cost "drafters" instead of designers then ADT might be better for you.

So I would say it depends on your firm. BUT the successful firms of the future will be the ones that pick-up the BIM technology to work with contractors; they improve project coordination; they hire the designers that design on the computer (aka the designers that are coming out of College today), etc.

In your case staying with ADT for now may be fine... but gradually moving to it in the future (as many large offices are doing) would likely be a very good idea.

chrisdone
2005-10-20, 02:25 AM
Alright.. I'm starting to follow the concept now, thanks to this last post. That was my biggest hurdle. I am a project manager that can visulaize a building in my head, rotate it in my head, basically do a 3d Orbit in my head and know exactly what is going on. I do not need a 3d model to tell me that, which I feel many kids today coming out of college cannot do. They are so 3d based that they do not visualize in their head, but on their computer monitor (sound wierd that I just said that...I'm only 27..ha).

So lets say I do a 3d model of a 3 story building.... a box, with three floors. The 3d model will have a horizontal section cut 5'-0" off the 1st floor and that is my floor plan?? Then I take that view and generate dimensions and text.....do my text and dims go on a specific z axis, or in my view, I'm treating it like "paperspace" where everything in that view can only be seen in that view (or "paperspace tab" so-to-speak)......Am I on the right path here??

Brian Myers
2005-10-20, 03:52 AM
So lets say I do a 3d model of a 3 story building.... a box, with three floors. The 3d model will have a horizontal section cut 5'-0" off the 1st floor and that is my floor plan?? Then I take that view and generate dimensions and text.....do my text and dims go on a specific z axis, or in my view, I'm treating it like "paperspace" where everything in that view can only be seen in that view (or "paperspace tab" so-to-speak)......Am I on the right path here??

Yes, the right track... but it goes beyond that.

There is a grey area here... technically ADT and Revit each can produce the exact same results. (Well, there are differences as Revit was created to be a BIM application while ADT is just developing in that direction while sitting on top of AutoCAD... and I'll get into that....).

In the example you gave essentially both programs work that way. The difference starts in the way you design which is something the Revit users will happily explain. Also this goes beyond the ability to visualize in 3D... this is about how you design, not making mistakes, and the speed at which you communicate your designs. I've found (for myself) that Revit is an easier design tool. But I'm an oddity in these Forums, I've used AutoCAD since 1989.. currently use ADT in my office... am a big believer that programs like Revit are the future... but my favorite "Design" program is SketchUp.

According to the makers of SketchUp they never plan on using there software as drafting or BIM software, but they want to be able to export there models into Autodesk products (and they can). But why do I mention this?

As good as Revit is and as much as the people that use it love it... I believe SketchUp is more intuitive with the way I design. Once again, why do I mention this?

Base AutoCAD, like the pencil and paper, is a tool that will slowly become part of the past. ADT is currently a design tool that sits on top of AutoCAD and expedites the drafting process and it has basic BIM and 3D capabilities. Revit is a 3D design/BIM program that can also produce construction documents and depending on the project it can be used more efficiently than AutoCAD in terms of speed as well as the design process. But Revit is just one of several BIM applications available. Revit is general accepted as the best of the pack... but it is yet to dominate the market in quite the same fashion that AutoCAD has. But with programs like SketchUp also developing, who's to say Revit will eventually win out?

So my point: BIM is Building Information Modeling. In this case the Information and Modeling is the most important aspect to grasp here. 10 years from now (technically it could happen now, but realistically more wide spread 10 years from now) projects may be built from the Building Model and not from a set of Plans. AutoCAD can't offer that. ADT could, but currently not to the level Revit can. But with the big push for interoperability between software programs and the information they share there could be 5 design programs on the market in 10 years that can all manipulate the design data to achieve the Virtual Model.

So the future is something a good design firm will not be able to resist... 10 years from now you WILL be using BIM with your projects and currently Revit is the best program around at doing that. But perhaps ADT will be preferred by many contractors? SketchUp as an add-on could be used by many Designers? Maybe one or many of these programs will no longer exist? Point being, you should begin to point your firm in the best direction to take advantage of the future. 2D design might work for you now, but likely 3D will be the future of your company. May it be ADT or Revit or a combination of programs... I'd work toward working in a 3D environment for the variety of services it can provide, the time and labor costs it will eventually save, and the good customer relations this will create as eventually the Client (or maybe even your municipalities) will demand to see it.

Once again.. it depends on your firm and what you want to accomplish... I enjoy ADT but everything I read says that Revit is the way to go. But it's important to remember that in a few years it will be the DATA that's much more important than the program you use. Also the data you create today (and the process you use to create it) could potentially be used in the future to gain a step up on your competitors which are just beginning to adapt to it.

glee.94356
2005-10-20, 04:10 PM
Brian,
This is actually a good post. It helped me better understand why I'm pushing myself to learn any form of BIM. The efficiencies I see with this technology makes more sense than the "traditional" way of using 3D modeling.
I believe that BIM can help smaller firms adapt and compete better in the market place. It's potentially a good way to offset offshoring of drafting jobs by large firms. BIM helps build on the AEC industry as a service industry and not a drafting industry.
Again as you pointed out, it will be based on each firms organizational structure and how work/ designs are produced. But the knowledge and or design talent can be better used and marketed by using BIM. A firm using talented designers on BIM can sell those services as a higher level product as opposed to one using a traditional method of product delivery.
Not sure if that made sense. The gist of it, is that taking the time to invest in BIM now will probably be a good ROI. All signs seem to point in that direction and most universities and colleges are heading there in some form.
Why not utilize the future now instead of competing the old way and against firms so adamant about offshoring (uh, offshoring just sort of got to me this morning. Just heard that a firm I know is considering it). Ok, I'll stop rambling now.