Presenting Pros/Cons of Revit

[DanielleAnderson]

Hi there all,
I have been given the task of presenting Revit (verbally, not visually) in our company Operations Meeting in about a week and a half. They are looking for a non-biased list of Pros/Cons of using Revit in order to inform Project managers (who will likely not be using the program themselves) on which projects would work well for Revit, if there are some that don't, and perhaps how different kind of projects affect how Revit is used. So we have a comfortable implementation as opposed to mass-panic.
This firm is a mix of healthcare, hospitality, high rise residential and science/technology.
So - my question to all of you is: On different types of projects (and specify which types), what have you run across as positives and negatives in Revit? How has it affected work flow? Budgets? Learning curves?
I've seen various presentations given on this (such as at AU last year), I am just trying to compile a concise list in one location that will help me present the information. So please give me your $0.02! (and feel free to move this to whichever sub-forum it needs to be in)

Thanks!
Danielle

[Andre Baros]

The biggest problem I have run into in our implementation is people not asking enough questions. Users who were power Acad users are embarrassed, or just don't take the time to ask how to do things in Revit and then, only when they get far along, realize that they've dug themselves into a hole of work-arounds or cheats. Users on they're third or fourth project don't seam to have these issues, or any issues for that matter.

We've currently had a broad mix of Revit projects: Various high end residential ($200-800/sf), Remodeling, Alterations to historic structures, Institutional (45,000 SF University project, started at 63,000 and Revit was very helpful in each stage of shrinking), Tenant Building outs in existing buildings, and modeling legacy AutoCAD projects just for rendering for studying specific parts.

Most of our Revit projects go faster than similar AutoCAD projects did... for one tenant build out where we had already done a similar project in the same building, it went about 5 times faster. However some projects, particularly the high end residential and renovation, seam to take just as long but benefit from better coordination and the "free" 3D model for the same amount of work.

[Wes Macaulay]

Boy Andre -- that's a good point. People are pretty comfortable with AutoCAD (whether they ought to be or not) and the sheer volume of things they'll need to learn in Revit means all newbies have to swallow their pride and remember that the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

In light of this... if your staff are "diggers" -- like Dimitri ;-) -- then you're in good shape. If not, success will come with greater pains.

One of the larger problems with Revit is that you really do need good internal support, and a sort of auditing / best practices process so that completed work is evaluated and everyone's knowledge improved. Revit doesn't follow the "80% of the time you need only know 20% of the features" rule you get with AutoCAD.

Revit is great for small and midsized projects. Larger projects (say over 500,000 sf) will require more experience and planning. Take a midsized project and give it a go -- make sure you've got your bail-to-AutoCAD plan in place before you start.

Pros: you can have more faith in the drawings. You will have a better understanding of the building. You will get the base project drawings (plans, elevations, coarse sections) done faster. If staff learn it well, it is WAY more fun. Morale improves; everyone is happy.

Cons: getting the drawings looking perfect (and using the entire set of office graphic standards) takes a fairly deep understanding of how Revit works. Lineweights, hatching and other graphical items depend on a larger number of factors than in 2D -- and to begin with, the drawings literally show cuts through the model. Blessings for some, anethema for others. (I hear the voice of Coral in my head.) Staff aren't always thinking about how their actions affect the team -- what appears to be a stray line someone decided to delete could be the entire slab for the second floor! Some projects don't lend themselves as well to Revit -- particularly ones with lots of split levels. Learning how to build your own families is fairly complex, and someone in the office needs to know how to do it.

If your staff are willing to ask lots of questions, then success is far more likely. Inquisitiveness shall save you.

[DanielleAnderson]

(I hear the voice of Coral in my head.)

Yah, I don't need to add anything to that one. :)
I was really impressed today. One of our senior associates has taken it upon himself to dig in on a skinny Vancouver-like tower all on his own. He's hoping to build the basic model in 3 days and I think he can do it. It's a perfect little project to learn on since it's just 17 floors of repetitive elements. I think that his quick knowledge will be a huge asset since he is also in charge of setting up a current version of office standards and he's fairly picky in terms of what he expects graphically but at the same time is not a nay-sayer.
The office is thinking of setting up an interesting experiment of letting self-starters dig in on their own time and reward those who do with extra training and the ability to lead revit on projects. I had no idea what a coordination nightmare implementation at a large firm could potentially be.
So - everyone please keep the pros/cons coming. I want to lay it all out on the table when my turn comes around.
Thanks!
Danielle

[Wes Macaulay]

Rewards are a very, very good idea.

[Lashers]

Setting up the office/job template at the start - no better method of maintaining project coordination and standards! It is in these areas where jobs go wrong early in the process with each person making their own set of standard items . .a la OtherCAD.

[DanielleAnderson]

Okay but back to the initial question, let me probe a bit:
-Are there specific project types that you would NOT use Revit for?
-Are there specific project types that you have encountered problems with doing them in Revit?
-Is there a particular project type that Revit is ideal for (besides small suburban residential)?

[Wes Macaulay]

Some not-so-great-for-BIM project types:

I haven't tried it on a nasty site... but townhouses on a steep site would not be fun -- can you say 'multiple plan regions'? Nasty! I'd still do it in Revit tho :mrgreen:

Really, really large projects (over 750,000 sf) -- the save times of Revit go way up. Once your file is over 150Mb the benefits of Revit get lost in the longer and longer save and reload times. If you have a 3.5Ghz screamer with 3 Gb of RAM... great. Use linked files; avoid locking any relationships -- keep the model loose. If the project is a real monster then AutoCAD may be the best bet.

Projects with lots of dual-curve geometry (curves in two planes) can be done in Revit but snapping doesn't always work the way you want, or at all, especially in section.

For anything else: Revit is fab. Towers... offices... churches... houses... etc.

[AP23]

If the project is a real monster then AutoCAD may be the best bet.

Projects with lots of dual-curve geometry (curves in two planes) can be done in Revit but snapping doesn't always work the way you want, or at all, especially in section.

1. Isn't is easier to just stick to Autocad, especially with V 2007. (Limitless drafting, no need to worry about projects size, type and procedures, fast etc. Before 2007, Revit was the obvious choice but now........ )
2. about the dual-cuve geometry, since when can this be done in Revit? Are you talking about R9?

[Phil Read]

1. Isn't is easier to just stick to Autocad, especially with V 2007. (Limitless drafting, no need to worry about projects size, type and procedures, fast etc. Before 2007, Revit was the obvious choice but now........ )
If your goal is to draw a building - yes. If your goal is to build a building - no.


2. about the dual-cuve geometry, since when can this be done in Revit? Are you talking about R9?
A sphere is a dual curve. So are these (attached). Or if the geometry is particularly challenging, create it in whatever software you've been creating it in, and then import/link the file and leverage it or build around it.

Danielle -

From what I've seen, one of the most disruptive ways to use Revit is on a project in which both the typology and technology is unfamiliar. In other words - if the team has never done a high rise, and hasn't used Revit - think twice about starting your first one in Revit. Different typologies are like unique answers to different questions. Having a team trying to get their collective head around both the technology and typology is really tough. Having to manage only one of two unknowns is far more successful.

Other than this - with the proper training and mentoring, the very first pilot project should be a defining success.

But then, I'm biased. :)

All the best -

Phil

[Wes Macaulay]

1. Isn't is easier to just stick to Autocad, especially with V 2007. (Limitless drafting, no need to worry about projects size, type and procedures, fast etc. Before 2007, Revit was the obvious choice but now........ )
2. about the dual-cuve geometry, since when can this be done in Revit? Are you talking about R9?Andrew: three words... in-place families. While I want (as do others) and some projects need more modeling tools, you should dig deeper into Revit's capabilities.

100% Revit -- quick and dirty, done by complete newbies.

[Andre Baros]

Yeah, in place families have joined Worksets in the move from "danger, don't touch" to "can't live without"

[aaronrumple]

Andrew: three words... in-place families. While I want (as do others) and some projects need more modeling tools, you should dig deeper into Revit's capabilities.

100% Revit -- quick and dirty, done by complete newbies.
Your newbies are better than my newbies. Can I have some?

[Wes Macaulay]

Your newbies are better than my newbies. Can I have some?Ha! They're Rhino users. Modeling is no problem for them at all. On other iterations of the project I had to help with some measures to get the Revit model looking like the Rhino version, and we ended up sending some stuff off to the Factory so they could see what we were doing.

[DanielleAnderson]

Okay...what about TIs, anybody run into any bumps there? It seems to me like TIs would be a snap, but I want to know if I'm missing anything there...especially hospital and MOB TIs.

[Wes Macaulay]

So you're doing the TI: what do you get for shell drawings? What are your deliverables? If it's interior elevations, fine; but you'll need to model ceilings and possibly structure and anything else that may show up in the drawing set -- including exterior windows/walls if they also need to be seen in some views.

Revit can obviously do this work but you're overlapping with the base building in many respects. It would be great if you could get a Revit model and link it in.

[nnguyen]

We just finished 100% DD on a new construction MOB and some renovation work (TI) to the existing MOB that we connected to.
A little background:
Project team consisted of 6 people. Some took to Revit fairly quickly, while others didn't.
Our project is 66,000 sq. ft of new construction (minus the site) and around 32,000 sq. ft. of TI work.

Summary of experience:

"Saving to central" took very long. It got longer with the progression of the project. I would say some time 5 to 10 minutes. Also some commands created delays because Revit took time to do some processing (splitting walls, even moving room tags for example)But that could be an internal server issue with us. I would suggest to have an Autodesk person to come out and do a diagnostic on your systems if it has not already been done. We have not been able to resolve this issue yet.

Time to create the family/components needed in the Healthcare sector. Revit has a pretty good library, but since Healthcare has many types of equipment you need to have someone pretty good at creating these families. I would guess around 3 days to a week for a novice to create all the family/components that you need.

As far as the TI work that was in the project: it seemed like setting up the demolition plan gave us a bit of a headache. The problem mainly were the room tags.

My overall experience with Revit was good. Coordination with respect to elevations, sections, plans and such were great. If you create the families correctly all wall mounted equipment would be shown in plan and elevation. Worksets were very useful, because multiple team members can work on the file. Tags were smart, which lends to the coordination issue too. Creating schedules for anything in the project was done in few steps. The added capability of showing clients 3d views a big plus.

[SkiSouth]

Okay...what about TIs, anybody run into any bumps there? .Okay, I'll fess up. Just did a bank complete design and working drawings. During the project the building was raised six inches. All the detail components were drawn using underlays then the underlays turned off. Plate heights were called out on the details. When the building was moved up, did not check all the text. the plate height on one detail did not change so now I have a 6 inch error in one detail (was able to work it out - but it did get me). So what to watch out for - when you move objects in detail views it can move underlying objects, and you can move the underlying objects, and unless the detail lines are locked, they will not move (causing my dilemma.)

So be very careful in setting levels (where this error originated). Should have been set and locked to top of plate and so labeled. It was not.

[cphubb]

We have done numerous TI projects and not a single one had deliverables in Revit. Most were hard copy and would have needed to be redrawn in CAD anyway so creating the "base" shell in Revit was probably faster that in other CAD programs. We have experienced no real slowdowns with having a large model and small TI work, nor do we have any real STC slowdowns, 1 minute at the longest and that would be due to large amounts of borrowed objects. Checking out the workset(s) your are going to primarily use is best for fast central saves.
Danielle, we have not come across a project that really causes a problem for Revit it is more the project approach and process that cause problems when doing certain types of projects.

[DanielleAnderson]

Danielle, we have not come across a project that really causes a problem for Revit it is more the project approach and process that cause problems when doing certain types of projects.

Thanks everybody for your thoughtful replies. I am pretty sure you are right, Chris, I am just a little concerned about the implementation of project approach and process since I think this grand implementation is bigger than me by far. :)

[Andre Baros]

I would rather struggle sometimes with how to draw something in Revit (though personally that hasn't happened much) than draw it quickly somewhere else and struggle with documenting it, coordinating layer standards, coordinating sheets, etc.

We do some custom houses with several hundred sheets of custom details and complicated geometry and just checking that all the tags are referring to the right sheets can take weeks in AutoCAD. None of our work arounds in Revit take that much time and even if we didn't use any other feature, the coordination alone would make it worth while. Regardless of the hype, time in Revit (once you learn it) is spent on architecture not cad managment.

[DanielleAnderson]

Regardless of the hype, time in Revit (once you learn it) is spent on architecture not cad managment.

What a great sound-bite. :) I am using all this great information...

[beegee]

I spend a lot of my life assisting firms to implement Revit and it is definitely the best tool for the job.

But then I'm biased too :)


-Are there specific project types that you would NOT use Revit for?
I'm trying to think of a type - maybe a huge organic shape ? - nah - I'd still use Revit for that, but possible import the design model from some other program.



-Are there specific project types that you have encountered problems with doing them in Revit?

Projects requiring extensive use of grouping can be a challenge to a newbie Revit team.


-Is there a particular project type that Revit is ideal for (besides small suburban residential)?
Hey, don't tell SOM that Revit is best suited for small suburban residential ! :)

Any large project has its own specific set of challenges, but I've found Revit can handle those challenges better than anything else out there.

[Lashers]

HOK is supposed to be rolling Revit out as well . . I hear. Not a small project in site!

[VirtualBuilding]

I wouldn't call what HOK is about to do "rolling Revit out". They are loading and planning to try it out on "some" projects. HOKSVE, for example has not even begun to commit to using it on stadiums...

Our buisness sells BIM services to companies all over the world, and our biggest trouble we run into is not specifically Revit's fault, but the fact that EVERYONE isn't using the same program for the full model. One must consider collaboration to get the most benefits out of a BIM situaton.

For example plumbing contractors are using ABS becuase even the newest Revit Systems doesn't do plumbing. So when it's time to import their model it comes across as dumb objects.

You would think that Autodesk would at least create a translator between their two products...?!


HOK is supposed to be rolling Revit out as well . . I hear. Not a small project in site!