Difference between Column and Framing Families?

[CeeVee]

Hi All,

What makes a column family and what makes a framing family. I have a couple of families for CHS which seem to contain the same member sizes, but am wondering what makes the column CHS's know they are columns? and vice-versa? I am trying to set up our templates, and was hoping to rationalise our libraries a little.

Is there any reason why I could not rename 'Circular Hollow Sections-Column' to simply 'CHS' so it appear a little less cluttered in the Project Browser? The section name shall rename the same, and I have tried exporting to Robot Millennium with no ill-effect.

Thanks,
Charles

[david_peterson]

As far as I know the only differece is that columns can only be vertical. Framing members can be just about anything. Personally I wish Braces were made their owy family as well. There may be some difference in how they export via the API as well, but I'm not a programmer so I couldn't tell you.

[Jshaver]

According to the excel model generator for revit, beams can be anything except vertical. Vertical members are always defined as columns. (even if they are within a truss or spaceframe)
This may cause some concern if the members are the same physical dimensions/type but revit's OOTB nomenclature varies between a w-flange beam and a wide flange column...etc.)
I would try to avoid renaming any families if possible. While your specific project may work with the robobat millenium link other 3rd party software/links may not accept the change. I believe CIS/2 requires that the family name matches the aisc standard 2001 nomenclature.

[david_peterson]

,According to the excel model generator for revit, beams can be anything except vertical. Vertical members are always defined as columns. (even if they are within a truss or spaceframe)

Really? I can make a brace 100% vertical. I use them for stub cols all the time. A brace comes from the beam family and still lists as a brace. I can't do it with a beam. They both come from the same family, so I guess it's another one of those Revit Family Mysteries.

[Jshaver]

Geometry modeled inside of revit without utilizing the excel link can be 100% vertical. As I said before when using the excel modeling tool it can NOT. (there is not a brace option) For consistancy throughout the project I am making all vertical members columns due to this limitation. I am not sure if it is the same for other external tools.
I am assuming beams do not allow members that consist of 2 points with the same x coordinate due to a limitation in the software's code/formulas.

Are there any benefits to using the braces that you have found?
I would suggest avoiding using braces for stub colums. Down the line it could cause problems with tagging and visibilty settings/overides...and its a stub "column" not a stub "brace".

[david_peterson]

What excel link are you talking about? I haven't heard of that one yet? Is that a new partner?

[Jshaver]

The excel generator is from the robobat extensions:
http://www.extensions4revit.com/n/e4r

You can download a free "basic" version or purchase the full version.
It seems to be an extremely powerful tool for creating complex geoemetry.
The excel generator can also be used with modified families. Unlike the CIS/2 link that follows a specific nomenclature.

I have come across a few limitations with framing members and I am not thrilled with having to load in the family types before running the program. I am working on a default template that includes all of our modified families and types. By default you have to type in the correct syntax for family name, type, and material. (what a pain)

Framing members are always placed at top of steel. There isnt an option for center, bottom, etc.

[Paul Andersen]

By default you have to type in the correct syntax for family name, type, and material. (what a pain)
Just in case you haven't already played with this toolbar (image 1) it can save you the typing hassle. Clicking the add, insert or modify icons will launch a dialog (image 2) which is already populated with the information that is loaded in your current Revit model.

[Steve_Stafford]

A Family's category is defined in the family template (or any template for that matter), and in the project for in-place families, under Settings Menu > Family Category and Parameters. When you assign a family to a category Revit will treat the family according to its prewired rules when it is loaded/used into a project.

Renaming a family name should have no negative impact on the project before you have used it, but as implied earlier if you have already shared the model with analysis you may have some coordination to resolve. Any family that is using a Type Catalog will need to have its catalog file name changed to match.

Best to put such customization in your own office library and leave the Revit content untouched (stock). This way you don't inadvertently remove any of your custom content accidentally.

[Jshaver]

Just in case you haven't already played with this toolbar (image 1) it can save you the typing hassle. Clicking the add, insert or modify icons will launch a dialog (image 2) which is already populated with the information that is loaded in your current Revit model.

Paul I am aware of the input dialog however there are extremely complex formulas generating each beams parameters. (some even reference other excel files) so I was unable to use this for many of the beams. The workaround I have found is to create a new worksheet and insert the families catalog.txt file. Upon doing so you can set up pull downs in excel for each family category. This works wonders! the only catch is I havent found out how to store this info in the default excel startup sheet. I am assuming there is a template file somewhere that is accessed during the extensions launch.

Steve,
We had considered a seperate directory for our custom families but it seems very difficult to ensure users are always using the most "current" files. How would a user know which directory to look first? Would he be required to browse both directories everytime he/she is loading a new family?

[CeeVee]

Thanks guys for your insights.
This may be a silly question (though I have been assured in the past the silly one is the one you don't ask), but the list of Family Categories - I take it that is static? Being used by Visibilty Graphics I guess it is...? Does it get added to occasionally with new releases? I don't have a specific category in mind, more just understanding how it's set up....
Thanks again,
Charles

[Steve_Stafford]

...We had considered a seperate directory for our custom families but it seems very difficult to ensure users are always using the most "current" files. How would a user know which directory to look first? Would he be required to browse both directories everytime he/she is loading a new family?...Training... :smile: Tell staff to first check the office library and then if something doesn't exist, the stock content library. If you don't have much in the office library yet then the reverse. Some folks don't mind mingling files but you have to wrestle with naming to make it obvious which are yours and which are stock. Though it isn't that hard if you just use a prefix for all your own stuff. Most firms use a Stock, Office and Project library. Users pull from stock, modify it perhaps and then save it in a project folder. If it is useful office wide it gets "promoted" to the office library. Others use a central "temp" library for all users to drop customized content into. Lot's of possibilities, pick one, stick to it and communicate :smile:

The categories available are hardcoded into Revit. Additional categories have appeared as Revit Structure and MEP arrived. We cannot create categories but we can create sub-categories. Generic is the catch-all category as well as Specialty Equipment. The biggest difference between these catch-all categories is the generic models are cut while specialty equipment families are not. By cut I mean Revit displays a heavier line weight called "cut" when the cutplane of a view crosses through one

[robin_paulson]

Upon doing so you can set up pull downs in excel for each family category. This works wonders! the only catch is I havent found out how to store this info in the default excel startup sheet. I am assuming there is a template file somewhere that is accessed during the extensions launch.



the template is stored in program files\robobat\rex\modules\en-us\

i don't know how your buildings vary from project to project, but ours are fairly similar in layout.

we have an excel macro set up that will generate an entire building of steel-frame members from 2 minutes work. after typing in the parameters for the building (length, height, number of building bays, column types - from a drop-down box, number of purlins per bay, etc.) a macro is run to input the correct numbers into a spreadsheet, which is then imported into revit structure and the majority of the building created. great for quoting and for producing cutting lengths, and no faffing around defining each member manually.

now if only they would support control of the rest of revit through this extension, we could automate the entire process and sack all our steel detailers.......