Framing? Revit downstream without costing you more

[marty_rozmanith]

This is a proposal to consider a different business model for Revit add-on software...I'd like to find out what you think.

The Background: Design, manufacturing and the construction of buildings has lots of specialized players, and with AutoCAD, you could 'homebrew' stuff with lisp. This is much harder in Revit. Picking up on a discussion in another thread, Andrew Page talked about the role of Revit in a firm...to paraphrase in a quote...


Before revit, the average firm would do all their documentations in autocad and 3d modelling and rendering in a separate 3d package. ...

Revit is a software that merges all these disciplines in one package....And here is where the problems start. You can't replace any of these packages, but ...Revit is too expensive to have along side all the other software. ...

The only way this problem can be solved is if Autodesk lowers the price drastically....

Another way to solve this problem is to try to make it an all in one product as much as possible. (citing Adobe) After every release, indesign gets more and more Photoshop and Illustrator features and vice versa....

ANOTHER WAY - use Google's business model for Adwords to give away plugins to designers and monetize those who benefit (manufacturers and builders). It solves the Revit problem by allowing many parties to go to a different business model.

My impression is that Autodesk doesn't really understand how to make money off Revit by taking it downstream. Unless they make you (designers) pay, they don't know how to make money.

If I built the business model so that I could charge the manufacturing entity at the time of getting the order, then you designers wouldn't have to pay. I could give you a plugins for free.

It would basically be a marketing pipeline for the manufacfuring/supply entity, allowing us to bid jobs at very low cost to us.

For instance, if I created a free plugin for Revit that did residential framing, would you guys use it? I think you would if the plugin was good. My new startup is lgoing to manufacture framing from current Revit models. The framing data does not exist in the typical model, but can be generated 90% using rules.

Even better, what if the general (who wanted to price the frame) paid you for your Revit model so a manufacturer could generate their frame model with a lot less work and much higher accuracy (reducing the risk to the contractor).

Would you be willing to sell it to them? Would you be concerned about a liability issue? What if the manufactured frame were stamped by a licensed engineer - removing the liability from you?

What do you think?

[Steve_Stafford]

Moved thread to this forum as this is THE forum for this sort of discussion, cheers!

[Joef]

I'm interested in this but am not clear on the business model. If I get a plug-in that lets me do a framing plan with a material take-off, then the work is done and the downstream lumberyard simply gets to fill the order. If you give me the plug-in, I cannot see where the downstream income is generated.
My biggest problem is that I don't have a lot of money to spend on this sort of thing. I think like most of us who bought Revit, I kind of thought that this would be part of the package at some point and my subscription fees would cover it.

Joe

[GuyR]

Marty,

A few OT comments.

Yet another "Revit.commer" has left the nest. Surely a huge loss of experience at the Factory?


My impression is that Autodesk doesn't really understand how to make money off Revit by taking it downstream
How long has ADesk being selling AEC software and how long have they owned Revit now? If what you're saying is true then that is a sad indictment of management.

Guy

[Phil Palmer]

Nice idea Marty,

Should be a good business model for all downstrem data from the Revit Data.

I cant wait for the day where a detailed Revit model can be fully used downstream with the ability for manufacturer's , suppliers or sub-contractors to be able to interrogate our Revit models and provide prices for their area of work package.
Eg - I provide them with the model and they then interrogate the dataset and even replace our more generic components with their actual products and price the work based on our design dataset.

A total electronic Tendering Process where we all gain and yet costs the designers very little money.

We cant be that far away from this I guess as Revit provides very good structured data at least.

[Joef]

So....who gets the framing tools? If this happens down stream, then the lumber yard has to buy Revit. I doubt that they have ever heard of Revit. If I get the framing tools then how does this downstream business model work? How does Marty get paid and by whom?

[Steve_Stafford]

So....who gets the framing tools? If this happens down stream, then the lumber yard has to buy Revit. I doubt that they have ever heard of Revit. If I get the framing tools then how does this downstream business model work? How does Marty get paid and by whom?Why worry about how Marty gets paid :smile: if he makes the tool and gives it to you for free and you actually like it enough to use it...what's that "saw" about a gift horse? :smile:

[marty_rozmanith]

There is no way your subscription fees can cover the cost of producing every plugin for every specialty required in this industry. In reality, your fee won't even fund a few % of what is required and normally goes to fund ongoing operations, not R&D.


If you give me the plug-in, I cannot see where the downstream income is generated.
My biggest problem is that I don't have a lot of money to spend on this sort of thing. I think like most of us who bought Revit, I kind of thought that this would be part of the package at some point and my subscription fees would cover it.

Joe

Here's how it works...

Let's say I'm a manufacturing company and when I produce an order for the framing, I make $20,000. For instance, the startup I am working on would produce the framing using a huge machine, and requires CNC data. We would have 2 choices. Model the stuff ourselves (see NuconSteel - this is their model) or buy the CNC data.

If the Revit plugin produces the correct CNC to drive my machine directly from your Revit model, then I pay a fee, say $400 to get the data. The software provider collects this fee and you either get a split of this money, or get the software for free (or both).

This is the exact same business model as Google AdWords.

My question is - will architects be smart enought to understand that if they did this right, they could make enough money to rival their traditional fees. So, how about doubling your fee income with little to no extra work? That's the proposition.

-M

[Joef]

I thought this was about framing. There are no CNC machines involved in framing a single family house. At least not around here. Framing is also not a niche, or specialty activity. I misunderstood the premise here. Never mind...:)

[Scott D Davis]

CNC machines are used for metal studs in housing (or for any metal stud project for that matter). You can take sheet stock, send it through a roll forming machine, shape the studs, cut them to perfect length, punch them, dimple them, etc, all with CNC data. Further CNC machines could assemble the individual studs into wall panels and weld/screw/attach them together for perfectly sized/configured panels with ZERO waste.

This is not the "router" type CNC machine, but another type of computer numerical control machine. tHe concept is that the wall panels are built in a shop under controlled conditions to tight tolerances, and then shipped to the site for final assembly. Read "Refabricating Architecture" for a conceptual overview of how this assembly technology is being brought into Architecture from the manufacturing industry.

[GuyR]

them together for perfectly sized/configured panels with ZERO waste.

Just wondering how do they deal with floors? I've yet to see a timber/concrete floor that is perfectly flat or square. With timber framing it's quite easy to accommodate this variation with prenailed timber frames. What do they do with steel? Or are the floors steel framed as well?


Refabricating Architecture

By this do you mean this (http://www.amazon.com/Refabricating-Architecture-Manufacturing-Methodologies-Construction/dp/007143321X) . It's an interesting read for sure. Still can't take anything away from their great architecture though.

[whittendesigns]

I can't remember how long ago it was, maybe 6 or 7 years ago, I was watching a show on PBS I think it was, or the learning channel. Anyways, this was in Europe somewhere. They had machines, not really sure if they would be considered CNC, but it loaded wood studs in a wall, headers, sills, jacks, posts, etc. and a huge gang of nailguns came down and kathunk! everything was nailed together. Nailing off sheathing was like a machine gun.

Then the floor was an SIP 12' wide by whatever length you needed. Predrilled to run wiring, plumbing, heating, whatever you needed. It went together fast. Like a day and it was built.

I've seen sections of wood flooring done this way too. 12' wide or 8' wide and however long you need and the crane comes in and sets it all down.

Quite possible to put up houses in a day every day. I'm surprised the big housing contractors don't do this all the time. The time saved is saving them tens of thousands of dollars on interest savings.

[aaronrumple]

Just wondering how do they deal with floors? I've yet to see a timber/concrete floor that is perfectly flat or square. With timber framing it's quite easy to accommodate this variation with prenailed timber frames. What do they do with steel? Or are the floors steel framed as well?
Panelized wood construction works great - you just use different tolerances. The contractors I've worked with tell be that they get about 1/8" creep in dimensions with each panel. So a little slop is designed in and then the panels are shimmed out as needed...

[marty_rozmanith]

CNC machines are used for metal studs in housing (or for any metal stud project for that matter). You can take sheet stock, send it through a roll forming machine, shape the studs, cut them to perfect length, punch them, dimple them, etc, all with CNC data. Further CNC machines could assemble the individual studs into wall panels and weld/screw/attach them together for perfectly sized/configured panels with ZERO waste.

This is not the "router" type CNC machine, but another type of computer numerical control machine. tHe concept is that the wall panels are built in a shop under controlled conditions to tight tolerances, and then shipped to the site for final assembly. Read "Refabricating Architecture" for a conceptual overview of how this assembly technology is being brought into Architecture from the manufacturing industry.

Yes, exactly Scott. That's what my startup company is doing. The machines are from Finland. So - I still don't have a clear idea whether anybody wants free framing software for Revit or not?

[Scott D Davis]

By this do you mean this (http://www.amazon.com/Refabricating-Architecture-Manufacturing-Methodologies-Construction/dp/007143321X) . It's an interesting read for sure. Still can't take anything away from their great architecture though.
Yep! Thats the book. Easy read...but it was very interesting to me!

[Scott D Davis]

Yes, exactly Scott. That's what my startup company is doing. The machines are from Finland. So - I still don't have a clear idea whether anybody wants free framing software for Revit or not?
I vote YES!! I would love to see your company develop this! lets add a poll....be sure to vote!

[BillyGrey]

Marty,

Blaze that trail, I'm in.
And I also agree 100% with Phil's take on this subject.
In a different time, I really thought that was one of the major directions Revit was heading.
It's great to see that some folks still have the vision to grab the tiller and set a new course.

CHEERS

[VinceFerrero]

For instance, if I created a free plugin for Revit that did residential framing, would you guys use it? I think you would if the plugin was good. My new startup is going to manufacture framing from current Revit models. The framing data does not exist in the typical model, but can be generated 90% using rules.
Marty,

While I understand you're attempting to gauge the viability of your endeavour obviously the decision for many, if not all, will be in the eating. To be honest I don't want to vote because I have no idea of what it is that will be produced. If I vote yes but truly would like to see the product before it is used then I'd only be providing false information. I'd expect that you read the poll with a grain of salt.

I'd speculate a guess that you've already thought through much of the process and understand what it is you need to do. For me, use of any software like this would have to demonstrate a considerable benefit to me because the more software I have to manage simply diverts me from my real job, the one that makes the good money.

I have some queries with your business model. If you could enlighten us a little further then I think you may obtain a better understanding of what the community needs and thus what we would be willing to use;

Why would a manufacturer pay for data from "Who Knows Whom" to base their work on? I remember the days of simply trying to send your DWG drawings to a printer and there would be nothing but constant problems, simple issues of standards and formats which cost way too much time for what it was worth. Using a similar analogy the framing manufacturer could rather remodel the components (walls, floors, roof) that they are specifically engaged to deal with. They'd know what they were working with and apply there own required "work-arounds" for their specific process.

Who would take responsibility for the output? As a designer I don't want to know the specifics about how a component is put together so the remaining 10% you quote (which is usually the most time consuming) would most likely require considerable attention. If the risk for quality of output is placed in my hands then the rewards would have to match, I'm no longer a designer but I'm entering into the supply game.

Is your market really that diverse to use that same business model as Google? That is what Google counts on to make money; the diversity of their market, nearly everyone (if they had the dough) wants to advertise. If you can get your model to work in this application then it would be nothing short of revolutionary.

Really, for the amount of time that it could take to provide this added information (which I have no need to provide now) will far out weigh a couple of hundred extra dollars from one job. If I could resell that information several times over then we're talking money but it wouldn't be would it? It's only a one off, right?

Hope you can understand where I'm coming from. If you're willing to share some insight into these questions then it'd be helpful to all.

[Calvn_Swing]

Personally, I would love it if there was some way to automatically generate framing information. We use our Revit models for estimating, and for construction (we haven't worked out how yet on the construction side) but this kind of information would make it much more useful for both endeavors. We don't do residential at my firm, but we do a lot of light gauge steel framing for commercial buildings, both for walls and for roof trusses. Being able to send that data to the manufacturer for CNC is exactly what we want to do, but are having trouble doing on several levels.

I think your challenge will be getting Architects interested. Since my firm is both Architecture and General Contractor, it works out nicely for us. We aren't really taking on much more risk than before. So, I love the idea. I think you should market it more towards GC's who are working with Revit. They are more likely to take on the additional liability for a reduction in the contingency fee from their framing subs.

What would be really neat is if you could essentially generate framing placement for walls, roofs, and floors in Revit. This would also aid in clash detection, not just manufacturing. But, I am inclined to agree that I always assumed this feature would be included into Revit eventually. I agree that we can't count on Autodesk to write every little plugin for the industry, but I think this example is something that is pretty core to the intention for Revit. Something that will automatically place sprinkler heads in a room based on fire code is a little more likely to exist as a plugin only. Which isn't to say don't develop it. If you develop it, and Autodesk buys you out and puts it into the package, it will probably happen faster than if we let them do it on their own. So go for it! We'd use it either way.

[rbnutting]

Marty
It would be fantastic if you developed a plug in to Revit that generated wall panel, floor panel and roof truss drawings out of steel frame.
A number of firms already have structural component design software (Opti-Frame, ITW, Keymark). These companies are all working on perfecting their "whole house design" software which designs all of the structural components of the house (analyzing vertical and horizontal loads) and can dump them to their fabrication equipment.
What is required in the residential construction industry is a software solution that does it all; design of the house, design of the structural components (including fabrication information (wood or metal), and 3 D modeling which will yield a complete material take-off with costing. The structural component design companies need to team up with Revit to complete the circle!

[steve922542]

My question is - will architects be smart enought to understand that if they did this right, they could make enough money to rival their traditional fees. So, how about doubling your fee income with little to no extra work? That's the proposition.

-M

I'm not sure how realistic this is. As an architect and a millwork specialist, I can say with certainty that architects and interior designers (with few exceptions) do not have the knowledge to take their designs anywhere near a CNC machine. I am a technologist, but neither Revit nor any other software program I've seen has the ability to bridge the specialized knowledge gap (yet.) Without the expertise to verify the results of the output, there is not a real efficiency gain. And would designers be willing to bear the risk of their mistakes, where a manufacturer does now? Imagine billing that architect for a container worth of framing material that was manufactured too short.

The only scenario in which I see this working is design/build but how often does that really happen?

I love the discussion, but have sat through too many 'silver bullet' sales presentations to believe that one package (even with tons of add-ins) can be good at everything.

-Steve Layne
Objective Design

[TheViking]

How about the model Robobat is using? They are offering "Revit Extensions" (http://www.extensions4revit.com/n/e4r). They offer basic functionality for free and if someone find the tools useful they can pay for more advanced features.


Also you may want to ask Structural Engineers the same question. You may get a more positive response.

[hand471037]

The only scenario in which I see this working is design/build but how often does that really happen?

I don't know how often it's happening, but that's the direction we're going in. We use Revit and our CNC all the time, and we're in the middle of a project where we just cut aluminum panels for a contractor to install within an interior curtain wall on the CNC same machine that made the client a custom desk prototype and will in the future (we hope) be making them a lot more cool stuff. All modeled in Revit, and produced via a combo of CNC and traditional construction.

I agree with what you say in that most designers and Architects won't be able to use the CNC stuff. But I think that has a lot more to do with the fact that I think that, sadly, the Architects and Designers are going to be 'bumped' by some of the new technology for they aren't always in a position to assume the risk to be able to gain from the technology or to even be able to really use or embrace the technology.

For example, I see the Engineers really pushing the analysis boundaries of Revit at the current moment. Where are the Architects and Designers clamoring for, say, exiting analysis or code checking software add-ons for Revit? There are some here asking for 'green' building tools, but again that's an area that I think the HVAC engineers (at least here in America) are really going to 'own' in the long term. And a lot of that comes back to who signs off on the calcs.

Or another example, I could, with some help from a programmer, make a nice front end Revit plug-in for Radiance. It would not only allow for photo-realistic renderings, it would allow for better daylighting and lighting analysis than almost anything else out there. Then I'd make a website full of fancy light fixtures for use in Revit, track who downloads what, and sell market data and adds to the lighting manufacturers, as well as render other folk's uploaded models for them as a 'render server service' for a subscription fee.

Now, who would use it other than Engineers and Lighting Designers? What Architect is going to sign off on the calcs that proved that the skylights worked? Aren't most going to simply pass that work along to someone else, a subcontractor, so that they don't have to assume the risk? And so it's easy to pass that bill from that consultant / sub onto the client, adding a 10% along the way?

Back to the framing plugin: I, for one, would be ecstatic if Marty did this, for I'd use it in a heartbeat. I'd model the walls, order the partitions, hand them off to the local contractor we work with for installation, make some more fancy bits off our own CNC table, and put it all together into a stunning interior or building for the same cost as normal boring work.

But then my proposal to talk about Revit and CNC at AU got turned down, probably due to the fact that most folks aren't doing what we are, nor are planning to any time soon. And I doubt that I could give Marty enough business alone to keep him afloat. ;-)

If I were Marty, I'd make the system in a way where it works with a Revit plug-in, but also works with a simple web-based ordering system so you get the best of both worlds. The design-build folks can order walls off the Revit model, the big construction firms can order them off their Revit, ArchiCAD, or Navvis models, and the small contractor can simply go to a web form and type in all the numbers and order them that way...

[marty_rozmanith]

Jeff,

Try this...

http://www.homestailor.com/catalog/open_house?house_id=6&view_id=Summary&house_full_name=Marlborough_DD1brick_KitC_CloB_MbrA_DorB_EntC_GarA

Oh yeah - BTW - its very beta...no wait...alpha

[JamesVan]

But then my proposal to talk about Revit and CNC at AU got turned down...

Jeff - Did you submit your ideas for AU Unplugged (http://au.autodesk.com/2007/blogs/view/AU_Unplugged_is_Ready/)?

[hand471037]

Jeff - Did you submit your ideas for AU Unplugged (http://au.autodesk.com/2007/blogs/view/AU_Unplugged_is_Ready/)?

Have to be going to AU in order to submit ideas for it.

I really like the concept of AU Unplugged, and now wish I had known about it sooner, for I turned down the two talks I was offered partially because I didn't want to just be giving the same sort of talk (at the same sort of conference) as I had for the last two years. AU is a great conference, mind you, it's just that I felt like doing something else this time. This would have been that something else I could have done. But then our project load became such that I didn't have the time to write the talks anyways, so that was that.

[steve922542]

I would definitely like to hear that talk Jeff. Revit is certainly not a 'screen to machine' program. It would be interesting to hear from those that are generating g-code from the output

-Steve Layne
Objective Design

[pauljordan]

Jeff,

Try this...

http://www.homestailor.com/catalog/open_house?house_id=6&view_id=Summary&house_full_name=Marlborough_DD1brick_KitC_CloB_MbrA_DorB_EntC_GarA

Oh yeah - BTW - its very beta...no wait...alpha

What exactly is it we're trying here Marty?? I don't see any kind of program or anything like that.

[luigi]

I would have signed up for those classes Jeff....



I would definitely like to hear that talk Jeff. Revit is certainly not a 'screen to machine' program. It would be interesting to hear from those that are generating g-code from the output

-Steve Layne
Objective Design

[hand471037]

What exactly is it we're trying here Marty?? I don't see any kind of program or anything like that.

It appears to me that as you change options on the house, all the views update to show those changes. I'm thinking that all these different versions of the house were done semi-automatically from a common base house via Revit's API, and that all these houses are done in such a way to 'plug in' to that automated framing technology that Marty's talking about.

So in other words it's a House Configurator. Pick your options, order the house, over the web. Pretty impressive overall, even if it's just a website we're looking at.

Marty please chime in and say if I'm off base here.

[Jim Merritt]

I would not only use a free framing plug-in for Revit, I would pay for it!

I direct the engineering for a high end custom modular home manufacturer. We need to generate floor, ceiling, roof, and wall framing panels for everything in the house. I've done this automation my self a number of times using AutoCAD, though not through to CAM machines.

We are going to either pay someone to write this software for us or develop it in house ourselves. Another option we are exploring is exporting Revit objects to a program for AutoCAD that currently automates framing.

My experience with Architects and Designers is that they do not have the expertise to create a model that is actually build-able themselves. Every house we get from Architects to convert over to a build-able project has a number of problems we must work out before constructing it. Also most Architects I work with don't have the time to learn all these details, and just to finish the current project, hand it off, and move on to the next project. This is how they make their money.

My experience with framing automation software is that none of it is sophisticated enough to just do some configuration, push a button, and you have optimized cut lists of materials to feed into a machine. I've spent a lot of time over the last number of months researching what framing automation software is currently out there on any platform. There are many programs out there. I do know one company that is actively working on framing for Revit, though their opinion is that the Revit API is not sophisticated enough to fully automate framing. They don't think it will be sophisticated enough for a number of years. I think their first "basic" wall framing will not be available until after Revit 2009 is out, with more API enhancements.

Marty, if you develop this software, make sure you disclaimer your products to death that the software does not take the structural integrity of the building into account. By this, what I mean is if an Architect builds a model with a nice open vault, will your framer do a lateral analysis of the wall and put in vertical or horizontal wind beams to resist the wind loading? When you frame a gable perpendicular to a main roof, will the program insure proper support down through the building under the valley rafters? Or if there is a span opening, will it put the necessary columns down through to the foundation? What if the house is going to Southern California and you need to take seismic loading into consideration? My point is that there is a huge liability in framing correctly.

The closest you could probably come to having structurally sound framing is to develop what we use in the modular industry, and that is a "Systems Structural Package". We have a 500+ page book of nothing but structural calculations for walls, floors, roofs, and ceilings that spell out what material sizes to use for various height/width/snow-load spans. If the conditions are outside of the calculations, it would be flagged to go to a structural engineer to run some calculations on it.

Regards,
--Jim

[gwnelson]

I would not only use a free framing plug-in for Revit, I would pay for it!

Just out of curiosity, Jim, what other free stuff would you be willing to pay for?

I'm looking to raise some cash quick.

;)