Testing: Revit + Viz + Vray

[christopher.zoog51272]

I've been testing Revit, Viz and Vray today, to see how well the play together. So far I am very happy. Vray is an incredible fast rendering engine. Note the time on this: 2 minutes 12.7 seconds! Even with all that water!

I'm still fumbling around a bit in viz, applying materials is much tougher then Revit/ar3, but the results are stunning.

Modeling is completely Revit.

anyway.. keep an eye out for more

[stuntmonkee]

Not familiar with V-ray but looks great. How does it work as far as applying materials, and are there possibilities of linking.

Have you tried linking a dwg file to viz and when you export from Revit you just keep the same file name? Does V-Ray work similar? I need to look in to this V-Ray.

You know, now that i think of it, is V-Ray a plug in for viz?

[hand471037]

Chris, do you know any programing stuffs? I'm starting to work with learning Perl to make a tool that will convert a DXF out of Revit (using the embeded x-data that contains the Accurender material ID) into Radiance files that 'know' what the materials were within Revit.

Could you do something with scripting in Viz or AutoCAD to expose the x-data and 'reset' all the surfaces to be on layers tied to their Accurender material ID's? Then you could simply export to DWG, open in Viz, run the tool, and then everything would be on a layer named by it's Accurender Material ID, making it trivial to redefine the materials...

I mean, just with the minimal research I've done so far with using DXF and Perl to do this, it doesn't seem too hard, the info is in there! It's more my very limited knowlege of Perl than anything that's keeping it from happening. ;-)

[beegee]

Well you certainly won't be concerned about dry rot with that building, Chris :)

Nice rendering coming along - looking forward to seeing the finished result.

[ivsim]

Not familiar with V-ray but looks great. How does it work as far as applying materials, and are there possibilities of linking.

Have you tried linking a dwg file to viz and when you export from Revit you just keep the same file name? Does V-Ray work similar? I need to look in to this V-Ray.

You know, now that i think of it, is V-Ray a plug in for viz?

V-ray is a plug-in, originally designed for 3DS max,but works equally well on a VIZ platform,...Actually, it's just a rendering engine, like Mentalray or FinalRender, with the difference that it's efficient, very fast and inexpensive,...you know,.....one of those small pieces of software that pull the strings of such heavy monsters like 3DS max or viz. So all you need to do is place your building in max and have it rendered with V-ray. There are some special V-ray materials but not many, so it'll take you a day or two to learn but it's not necessary to apply them every time you decide to v-ray your view...I think that it is a wonderful combination Revit+Viz(Max)+Vray. Unfortunetely, Vray does not work with VIZ Render.....if you take any interest, http://www.vrayrender.com/.....I wouldn't dare post a picture as the above url contains plenty of marvellous renderings.

In my view, Vray is the best software out of all these simulating diffuse light (radiosity) softwares now on the market and if you ask me I would not wish to have Accurender with Revit, V-ray would be a much better choice.......

....and last but not least, it supports distributed rendering and it's a matter of a few clicks to have it initiated and see the results in a poster size.

[stuntmonkee]

V-ray is a plug-in, originally designed for 3DS max,but works equally well on a VIZ platform,...Actually, it's just a rendering engine, like Mentalray or FinalRender, with the difference that it's efficient, very fast and inexpensive,...you know,.....one of those small pieces of software that pull the strings of such heavy monsters like 3DS max or viz. So all you need to do is place your building in max and have it rendered with V-ray. There are some special V-ray materials but not many, so it'll take you a day or two to learn but it's not necessary to apply them every time you decide to v-ray your view...I think that it is a wonderful combination Revit+Viz(Max)+Vray. Unfortunetely, Vray does not work with VIZ Render.....if you take any interest, http://www.vrayrender.com/.....I wouldn't dare post a picture as the above url contains plenty of marvellous renderings.

In my view, Vray is the best software out of all these simulating diffuse light (radiosity) softwares now on the market and if you ask me I would not wish to have Accurender with Revit, V-ray would be a much better choice.......

....and last but not least, it supports distributed rendering and it's a matter of a few clicks to have it initiated and see the results in a poster size.


These are the kind of images that make me feel like the stuff I do is done with crayons, and then touched up with a camera and flashlight. All very impressive. The Alien even made my desktop.

Anyway, I know you don't have to re-apply every time you render. What I'm referring to is if I change an object. With the Revit/accurender combo, materials move with your objects, and are automatically assigned when you add new objects. It just stinks to loose all of that when you have to use an outside rendering program, but it sounds like some of the more Savoy people out there are working on that issue.

My problem is that I'm looking the battle here to use Revit, because it doesn't produce the same images that Viz can put out. There is still a good chance that I will be able to use Revit as a modeling tool, so that is good, but from a time stand point it would be so beneficial to be able to not have to export and re map materials.

Just doin my part to keep the wish list alive!!!
Stunts

[christopher.zoog51272]

Chris, do you know any programing stuffs? I'm starting to work with learning Perl to make a tool that will convert a DXF out of Revit (using the embeded x-data that contains the Accurender material ID) into Radiance files that 'know' what the materials were within Revit.

Could you do something with scripting in Viz or AutoCAD to expose the x-data and 'reset' all the surfaces to be on layers tied to their Accurender material ID's? Then you could simply export to DWG, open in Viz, run the tool, and then everything would be on a layer named by it's Accurender Material ID, making it trivial to redefine the materials...

I mean, just with the minimal research I've done so far with using DXF and Perl to do this, it doesn't seem too hard, the info is in there! It's more my very limited knowlege of Perl than anything that's keeping it from happening. ;-)
Very interesting Jeffery, I have though about this, but my personal programing skills are poor. However, we have an excellent programer here in the office, that could do this. I brought this up to him today and he thinks he could do it, just needs some info. Do you have any links to white papers about the xdata in dwgs or of dwg in gerneral?

Thanks

-Z

[hand471037]

Zoog, I don't. :(

I've been reading things on the Autodesk site, there are some links, but I haven't found anything that's Revit-Xdata specific, just things about xdata in general. It appears that xdata is a way that any application, not just Revit, and append extra data to elements within a DWG/DXF. There is code out there to 'expose' this data using LISP or VBA within AutoCAD, and from looking at the DXF in plaintext and reading some info about DXF, it looks like there is a very consistent format for how the info is organized. This data can be anything, I believe that it's how Accurender and Softdesk and other add-ons function within DWG/DXF.

Within a Revit DXF, there is an 'Accurender Material ID' followed by a long number within the Xdata for every surface. This number I'm guessing would correspond to the ODBC exported data concerning Materials. Now seeing that I simply want things broken down into separate Radiance files, based upon this Material ID, which I will then be able to very quickly link to a common radiance material file (so that a certain accurender material is a certain Radiance material, with no remapping), my application is a little simpler. You've got UV space, and other issues to deal with in Viz, so your process won't be as automatic, but at least you might be able to get a DXF/DWG that's 'by material' rather than being 'by catagory'. But this is all assuming that Accurender Material ID's within the X-data are consistent, and not unique per project...

Could someone from the factory chime in with some info? Or send us a private message that we are wasting our time, because something's in the pipe for Revit 7? ;-)

[ivsim]

These are the kind of images that make me feel like the stuff I do is done with crayons, and then touched up with a camera and flashlight. All very impressive. The Alien even made my desktop.

Anyway, I know you don't have to re-apply every time you render. What I'm referring to is if I change an object. With the Revit/accurender combo, materials move with your objects, and are automatically assigned when you add new objects. It just stinks to loose all of that when you have to use an outside rendering program, but it sounds like some of the more Savoy people out there are working on that issue.

My problem is that I'm looking the battle here to use Revit, because it doesn't produce the same images that Viz can put out. There is still a good chance that I will be able to use Revit as a modeling tool, so that is good, but from a time stand point it would be so beneficial to be able to not have to export and re map materials.

Just doin my part to keep the wish list alive!!!
Stunts

Yeah, I think it's a small step to have it all in Revit: good modelling tool, materials mapped automatically and an effective rendering engine. When I think about this, now you have to buy a huge software like 3ds max or viz with all their modelling tools etc. only to use its rendering engine boosted by Vray. A big wish, you have, but...hardly unlikely at least for the time being.

And you don't have to be a wizzard in order to vray an outstanding image even with standard materials, the outstanding thing here are not some specific adjustments but the diffuse light which Vray so well simulates. It's what makes the images look real and attributes them a touch of space and that's what I am really so enthusiastic about :)!

[Andre Baros]

Great image. I would like to add something to the list of benefits of exporting to Max/Viz: Materials.

The control over materials, either parametric or bitmap is amazing.

Also, the whole export/import thing isn't so bad once you work out your export setting in Revit and I've even seen scripts for Max/Viz which will automatically assign material to imported models based on color or layer. It takes a lot of time the first few times but gets faster after that. Still, more control in this department is still a huge wishlist item.

[christopher.zoog51272]

Great image. I would like to add something to the list of benefits of exporting to Max/Viz: Materials.

The control over materials, either parametric or bitmap is amazing.

Also, the whole export/import thing isn't so bad once you work out your export setting in Revit and I've even seen scripts for Max/Viz which will automatically assign material to imported models based on color or layer. It takes a lot of time the first few times but gets faster after that. Still, more control in this department is still a huge wishlist item.
Cool, any idea where I might look for some of these scripts?

Anyway, here is another wip image, this is all part of the same project, it's a big job.

Again all modeling done in Revit, except for the trees, they're onyx-trees.

[Scott Hopkins]

Chris,

Nice looking grass in that image! I take it the grass is not a standard Accurender material?

[sfaust]

no kidding, that's tough to get good grass. Nice job. Love the KU colored (coincidental I'm sure) shutters, go hawks! ;)

Very nice rendering

[christopher.zoog51272]

thanks guys...


remember this was rendered in viz using Vray, not accurender. Vray has a nice displacement mod that actually lofts the grass blades for you, so to speak.

and the hawk's color were just a coincidence, I'm afraid.. (I'm a minute man. Go...Go U...Go U-Mass...Go UMass!)

[Andre Baros]

The script for assigning layers was on a cd which came with a book tutorials. I think it was Ted Boardman's book for Max 5 but I'll have to actually find my copy and check. Most of the stuff on there was available somewhere online as well and that was just a convenient location. At the time I didn't need it but now that I think about it I should dig it up and try it again.

[christopher.zoog51272]

thanks Andre!

anyway, like Jeffery, a coworker and I have spent some time dissecting the code in an exported Revit 3d DXF file.

All I can say is holy cow!! As far as we can tell, (again, not a fact, just a good guess) Revit already has system in place (embedded via xdata) to not only transfer material id and mapping, but also convert all Revit/ar3 Materials to Viz/Max materials and place them on the objects with proper UVW mapping!!!!! There is a huge chunk of xml code at the end of the file that gives viz the instructions to build standard viz materials from the ar3 data, nearly every parameter is covered.

So I guess in theory, the Revit team has done all the can right now. (way to go team!!!;)) It's up for the viz team build the plugin. However, this data has been in there since 6.0 (December '03) and it didn't make it into viz2005, so who knows how long it will take? Or I wonder if they are waiting for 3rd party to build it? Hell, given enough time we could probably do it.

In the mean time, we are working on a script that will read the xdata and change all Revit objects with the same material id to a single layer(or color) with that materials name. That way we just have to import and begin placing viz materials and uvw modifiers

So far we have been able to find the material id tag, now we are working on something to generate the layers.

I'll keep you posted.

-Z

[beegee]

So I guess in theory, the Revit team has done all the can right now. (way to go team!!!;)) It's up for the viz team build the plugin. However, this data has been in there since 6.0 (December '03)
Thats exactly what I had heard about this also.

[christopher.zoog51272]

Thats exactly what I had heard about this also. Come to think of it, Marty R. did say this at AU last year, didn't he...:Oops:

well, this year I'm going to find somebody at discreet/autodesk to bug about this ;)

[hand471037]

Cool to know about the XML info at the end, I hadn't gotten that deep into it. I just saw that there was xdata telling the surface what accurender material it was.

MY first 'stab' at a Revit-to-Radiance exporter is going to be the same as what you're talking about, Chris. Then I'll see if I can make it work with the materials too...

[jarod.tulanowski]

I read that Revit 7 has a plugin that allows you to link a revit model (rvt) , just like you can when you link a drawing (dwg). model into viz. I cant wait to dump the lack of bitmap accuracy that accurender has compared to viz/max, but still use the modeling power of revit compared to ADT

[hand471037]

Actually, it sounds like the plugin will allow you to link a *DWG* from Revit into Viz/Max, not the .RVT itself. However, unlike now, it will be aware of all the materials and lights and such, so you won't have to rework and remap things in Viz. So it won't be as automatic as the ADT & VIZ combo for it's not a 'live' link, but at least is something for now, and I expect that in the future we'll get tighter integration. Remember that the Viz-AutoCAD live link didn't really work that hot at first (at least in my experience)...

[jarod.tulanowski]

I agree totaly. thanks for the update. I guess only time (and testing) of revit7 will tell haha

[tbarnesarc]

Does anyone find it ironic that Archicad has this already set up two versions ago. I am not endorsing Archicad (been there done that), but works really well with Viz & Max. Sounds like the same basic programming theory as what you guys where talking about. My long term wish would be for Autodesk to make a Viz Render type thing for Revit similar what ADT already has. That is also ironic, that Autodesk isn't using their own software for rendering inside Revit. I understand why though because Revit hasn't been owned by Autodesk that long and Accurender was already there. Anyway I think we all wish for the day when we can make good renderings from a Revit Model!

[SkiSouth]

Anyway I think we all wish for the day when we can make good renderings from a Revit Model!

How many renderings have you tried with Revit, versus I assume you have Max or Viz?

[tbarnesarc]

How many renderings have you tried with Revit, versus I assume you have Max or Viz?
I have tried quite a few actually. Didn't get anything that I was happy with. I am just used to Max and Viz and have been using them for quite a few years and have taught it as well. I haven't seen anything that I am impressed with come out of Accurender inside Revit. I have seen renderings out of Flamingo (the Rhino equivalent) that I am impressed with though.

[Kroke]

Ok Zoog, what's your trick? =D

I played with a previous Revit model all day long today in MAX. I textured everything the way I want it and started the lighting setup. Seems the elight dome I recommended earlier wasn't such a great success this time.

Can you give some pointers on how you light your scene? Thanks, looks awesome!

[christopher.zoog51272]

Ok Zoog, what's your trick? =D
Vray, baby www.vrayrender.com (http://www.vrayrender.com/)

one direct light, with the Vray environment overidding the max environment, Vray handles the GI. That's all there was to it.

-Z

[Kroke]

Lol, ok...my roomie has this plugin, if not, I'll try the free version...thanks again mayuhn.

[Arnel Aguel]

Lol, ok...my roomie has this plugin, if not, I'll try the free version...thanks again mayuhn.

The Free version has some limitations it has no photon maps, Vray material and etc. but can also do some excellent renderings