Worksets users please respond.

[sbrown]

I am at my wits end with worksets in our office. Does anyone think worksets actually work well? Our we the only firm that has problems daily or close to it using worksets.

Revit support is great and helps but we are loosing hours and hours of work every week related to bugs in worksets. I probably spend 4 hours a week just recreating central files and local files for projects that have gone south, then uploading files to buzzsaw for revit to fix.

Even when worksets are working we have problems, they completely ruin the workflow that revit has in a single user environment. When working in revit you quickly move around your building working on plans, sections. elevations and details all at the same time, as soon as you activate worksets, you can no longer flow.

I need reassurance from users out there that they have confidence in worksets. Currently I believe they are a failure.

I'm reluctant to make this post because I love using revit but currently we are loosing more time and money than we are making due to worksets.

First we thought we were using them wrong, then revit development team found and error and fixed it in the latest release, well now we are crashing again. And this current project is only myself and one other user.

I retain 90% of the model and worksets, the other user only is working on the trash enclosure. So there shouldn't be any overlap, but there is.

Now I've got a new user on a diff. worksets job who is just doing details, but he is copy/pasting them from one project to another(just drafting views) but when he pastes revit tells him he has to make workset 1 editable, but he can't because thats not his workset. So now detailing is even harder in worksets(I guess the paste makes the items a group and groups need to be on worksets, I won't even go into how groups and worksets can reak havoc on your project)

I really think revit needs to re-evaluate how multi-users can work on a project.

I do thank revit support for all their help but I can't spend a day a week hunting down bugs and problems with revit.

Sorry for the Rant. Please give me some hope and tips if your firm is using them successfully.

[irwin]

With regard to the problem pasting, please note that it suffices to have any user-created workset editable at the time you paste; it needn't be workset 1. For example, he could create his own workset and keep that one editable when he pastes. That way it won't conflict with other users.

[christopher.zoog51272]

scott, we have also had some issues but by and large we have been able to use them with some success. It's too much to get into now, as I'm heading out for vacation, but i promise to post more when i get back. I'm about to rethink our strategy, as we may add more seats soon. I think now might be a good time to share ideas. see ya in a week :twisted:

[Wes Macaulay]

Most firms using Revit here in Vancouver are using worksets with no major issues. One firm I've been working with is even using worksets to share the model between users and disciplines... so far, so good. Worksets, up to this point in time for me and the people I'm training, are a bit of a hassle, but work fine.

Sometimes people have to create a new workset on the fly if they can't get at one of them - then later they delete the temporary workset.

Our worst case scenario is when someone goes home, forgets to save to central and/or forgets to release their worksets. Then you gotta change your worksets username to the person who's still got the worksets out, open the central file and release them.

One thing I'm telling people now is that if they have no worksets signed out, and they're more than a few hours behind with their local file (that is, if others have been working and saving to central while you've been doing something else), that rather than doing a Reload Latest, they should just copy the central file and paste it to their local hard drive and rename it as their local file. If your local file is at all out of date, this is a much better way to get their local file updated.

Worksets are working out here in Vancouver, but Revit should look at another way of divvying up the database. Again, TeamWork by ArchiCAD is a good example. It works really well in this regard! Still, don't give up on worksets; they help the database's performance.

It's hard to say what your problem may stem from. Check your LAN bandwidth - make it as fast as possible. To prevent packet collisions, make sure you're using a switch rather than a hub. Consider a server with dual NICs and blazing fast hard drives. Network write errors cause the majority of DWG and RVT file corruptions in my opinion (other than e-mail corruption).

Keep us posted!

[sbrown]

Its not that they don't work, its what they do to your work flow. As well as for some reason our company gets a "can't save to central" almost weekly, causing data loss, time loss and all around frustration. We have lost countless hours, saving to central, reloading latest worksets, creating new central files, creating new local files, sending files to revit, trying workarounds, deciding to cut our losses and lose data. Its just awful.

We really thought we were doing something wrong, but we aren't revit has reviewed our data countless times and can't tell us anything to change.

We do our save to centrals at least twice a day, I do it more like 4 times and after any big change. and every time I click that save to central button my heart sinks, cause I'm affraid its gonna give me an error and I'll be out of work for the next 2-4 hours trying to figure out how to merge our data.

Those of you in Vancouver with success what type of projects, and how are the worksets broken down.

Thanks.

[rreissig1788]

See other "crash" forum regarding our experiences with Revit and the central file crashing.

We have actually been saving SEVERAL times a day to central, so as to continually update the team of changes being made. I am talking 8-12 times during a regular 8 hour work day.

Regarding worksets, we have found that creating more worksets, rather than fewer appears to be working best for workflow. Unfortunately, we have an almost 100% complete model that we are having to backtrack and pick out stuff to breakout into worksets, rather than drawing that way in the first place.

200,000 square feet and 4 levels of a 7,000 seat arena have been quite the challenge to say the least, however, we are experimenting as we go.

[ajayholland]

Unfortunately, we have an almost 100% complete model that we are having to backtrack and pick out stuff to breakout into worksets, rather than drawing that way in the first place.

This past weekend, I had the opportunity to re-visit a project that I originally produced in version 4.5 more than one year ago. At that time, I had used worksets to separate the various major elements of the hotel/conference center expansion project.

I spent a few hours trying to divide the model into separate files for file linking, but I eventually gave up. It was just too complicated, partly due to my formerly undisciplined use of the program.

This may seem obvious, but in my single-user application of worksets, I've not had any difficulty, but I realize how critical this is to the successful use of the program in a multi-user environment.

From those currently mired in this dilemma, I'm curious regarding how many users you may have simultaneously involved in a single project?

A. Jay Holland

[rreissig1788]

From those currently mired in this dilemma, I'm curious regarding how many users you may have simultaneously involved in a single project?


We have 4 people working on the model/drawings including the project designer.

[pseletsky1770]

Irwin, ChrisZ:

Vacation time's over and it's now time for a reply:

Worksets functioning properly are the whole enchilada -- the difference between Revit being an outstanding standalone product, with a wonderful user interface, versus a truly collaborative BIM product that can be used in a multiple-office practice and across engineering disciplines.

In short, this is not an issue that will go away gently into the night, and all the rantin' and ravin' about klunky features in ArchiCAD 'don't mean a thing if (Revit) ain't got that (collaborative) swing.'

What's it gonna be Irwin?

[sbrown]

AMEN pcel,

The revit team has been in contact with me frequently about our issues with worksets and they are working on them to make them more flexible in 6.0. From what I've been told it sounds like workset functionality will be better.

Some pointers.

1. Use more worksets than fewer.
2. Start with worksets enabled and build your model on the proper worksets adding worksets as you find areas you may want a team member to work on
3. Door and windows can be on sep worksets allowing one users to manipulate them without having the wall workset editable.

4. Throw away your local file every day or often. Some users create a new local file every morning. Revit considers the local file a "throw away" file.

5. Plan, plan, plan try to decide who is going to do what and when.(this is the hardest part for us)

[Steve_Stafford]

I agree Scott...all solid "Best Practice" material in your list. I've recently adopted the throw-away practice too. (thanks, Jim Balding!)

[christopher.zoog51272]

Ok, I’ll throw my 2 cents in. Have we used worksets with some success? yes. Am I very happy with worksets? No. We have experienced the same crashes others have, and we often have to through away local files if they were more than a day behind. They seem go stale quickly and just can’t catch up..

However, my biggest beef with worksets is having to manage them. I can’t stand having to be ever vigilant with that workset drop down list. It reeks of layers in autocad. Workset management is as bad as the layer management was. Sometimes it’s worse, having things on the wrong layer is not nearly as bad as having something put on the wrong workset not knowing it. I happily left layers behind and I don’t want them creeping back into my workflow!!! To make matters even worse, there is very little in the way of tools available for managing worksets. In autocad there were several tool dedicated to help manage a layer system. With worksets, the only way you can tell what an object is on what workset is by picking it and hitting “properties” and least in autocad layers were different colors, so you could see at a glance. So your only choice is be VERY mindful of that dialogue box as you are modeling. Personally, that something I can handle without much fuss, but my other users aren’t as anal as I am, and I find myself pulling out the whip more than I want to. There is nothing more annoying that trying to do something to an object that was placed on the wrong workset and not having that workset available to you. This is the “crippling” of workflow I believe Scott was referring to.

So, if worksets are to be managed, we need better tools to manage them. Here are some wishes I have:

[list=1:a70d7d34f4]
[*:a70d7d34f4]Allow us to VISUALLY see at a glace what objects are on what worksets. I would like to see a button like the “thin lines” button that would toggle on worksets by color.

[*:a70d7d34f4]Objects that are copied or mirrored should maintain their prior workset, rather than being place on the current one. Better yet, give us the option.

[*:a70d7d34f4]Some sort of automatic workset system, that can be user defined. For example all exterior walls would know to go on a workset called, exterior shell

[*:a70d7d34f4]Better management of groups and worksets together

[*:a70d7d34f4]More flexibility in what worksets actually need to be editable to perform a certain task. This would help with the “you can’t move that footing that because somehow it has become to closely related to the toilet on the 4th floor men’s washroom, and you don’t have that workset open” errors.[/list:o:a70d7d34f4]

Ok, all of that said, worksets is what we have to work with now. So lets get together and talk about HOW each of implements them. I’d like to talk about what worksets you use and how they work for you. Personally I’m in the process of revamping our workset practices, so this discussion would be a great help. I think would could all learn a lot if we put our heads together.

Z.

[irwin]

I would like to assure all of you that we at Autodesk recognize that Worksets functionality is absolutley critical. Continuing to improve Worksets is the highest priority for the development team.

Those of you who were using Worksets in version 4.5 and earlier might recall that the biggest customer complaint at the time was performance, so in developing version 5.0 that was our primary focus. With the release of 5.0 performance improved to the point that many customers considered other Workset issues to be higher priority. Consequently while we continue to work on further performance improvements we are also devoting considerable effort to minimizing the workflow disruptions that some people have encountered. And, of course, any reliability issue trumps everything else as soon as it arises.

The feedback in this discussion forum is helpful, and we appreciate it.

[PeterJ]

I have been experimenting with larger projects with working with single user worksets, just to ease locking of elements and reduce the load if I work on something on the laptop.

In the context of my approach items 3 and 4 of Chris Zoog's list above would be essential. Revit's authors claim to attempt to mirror traditional workflow and mirror construction practice too yet if I draw a wall when I am in my windows and doors workset it defaults to the current workset. Considering the way one jumps around in projects it would be much beter to have a template which pushed all external wall types into the wall workset and all partitions into an appropriate set and so on. I feel that much less time would be spent tweaking things if we used this approach as few items need to be in unusual worksets in my experience.

P

[bclarch]

Perhaps a column could be added to the Visibility Graphics window that would allow you to assign a default workset for each item to be drawn on. The instance parameter box could also have a "default workset override" line that would allow the user to create an instance of an item on any workset that they select.

[Phil Palmer]

I would also love the opportunity to just Relinquish a workset 'on the fly' with some sort of Quick save to central for that particular workset rather than relinquishing ALL user defined worksets.

Default Worksets based upon object types - as the External wall example is a great idea.

Its very difficult to keep worksets nice and structured when you are diving in and out of various areas/levels etc within the model.

It often happens that I will go into a project and find roof top plantroom walls on maybe a basement workset as the user hasn't remembered to change active worksets.

A system we have used in the past (Sonata) would only lock users at 'Object' level (named MPA - Multi project access)
It worked really well for us and we never experienced any of these workset issues we face on a regular basis.

[gregcashen]

I recall an issue that was brought up a while back which had to do with having windows in a wall/exterior workset and not being able to edit them. I am having a similar experience right now and cannot figure out how to move my windows around without generating a list of 21 constraint errors. I have tried to disjoin and move, mirror, change the head height, etc. I have literally tried everything I can think of to move some windows and it won't let me anymore...at least without having to remove 21 constraints, after which it pops up another error dialog that 13 dimension references have become invalid. It's telling me, for instance, that a wall cannot remain joined to the roof if I move a window...WTF!?!? What does that have to do with anything? I am regretting my decision to use worksets on this project, but as we all know, it is a one-way thing and there is no way to go back now! Any ideas?

[sbrown]

Welcome to the joys of worksets. From my experience worksets actually reveals other bugs. This sounds like one of those cases. You can delete all worksets but one and merge all data to one workset then you dont really have worksets anymore. But that wouldn't solve this problem. This in all likelyhood has to do with relationships that got messed up somehow. Send it in with the various element id's that are causing the problems.

[Phil Read]

Greg -

Don't listen to Scott. ;) The process of enabling on the elemental level is the best practice - but you may need to temporarily enable an entire Workset(s) to make the changes in this situation.

Worksets allow terrific flexibility from visibility overrides to being able to open and close Worksets selectively. Please don't collapse your project into a single Workset (for some really good reasons). See this through and then insist Scott buy your beer at AU before you devulge your tips/tricks. :)

My .02

-Phil

[sbrown]

I assumed you have allready tried making all worksets editable to make your change and this didn't work.

I agree with Phil DONT collapse your project, I was saying if you read the full post that this would most likely not even solve his problem that worksets in my experience reveal other bugs that you wouldn't have found otherwise.

I use worksets from day one on almost every project I work on and wouldn't not use them. They are much better since 6.0. I have found new users aren't experiencing as many issues with them as we did previously.

So Greg, I'll be happy to buy you a beer and encourage you in your use of worksets. However I feel your pain too. When they fail you its the worst.

[cphubb]

We have used worksets also on large projects and have learned many things (the hard way). My main complaint with worksets is the inability to effectively collapse them into a single user project when needed. Our projects are usually worked on by 1 person at a time when in schematic and part/all of design development. When the major detailing starts we enable worksets and cut the project up into many (10+) worksets and proceed with CD. When the project goes into CA again there is only 1 person at at time working on the project. Often that person gets lazy and forgets to properly close the worksets or even worse works directly in the central file because "its just a little change." When the worksets are left open directly in the central file it creates all kinds of problems when other people open the file. It would be easier if we could disable the worksets when we are finished with them and have the model go back to single user mode. I have tried to delete the worksets (with all open) but that causes many problems and you still have all of the view and setting worksets to contend with.

Our next problem is with the new borrow feature. When I first heard about it I thought "great, we can finally move objects created on the wrong workset or fix interferences with doors and windows etc."
But in practice they have been a PITA. Users click on something and Revit asks to borrow. Of course they say yes. When they save to central if they do not click the right buttons they leave the borrowed objects open and cause problems for the next user who checks out that workset. The feature is nice in theory but in practice is just one more thing to manage which counters Revit's best feature (less things to manage). Now if they would only add layers and colors I could just jump out my window.
I am waiting for the day when Revit becomes its own client - server system and every object / project relates to each other.

Sorry for the Rant

Chris

[gregcashen]

I assumed you have allready tried making all worksets editable to make your change and this didn't work.

Of course!


I agree with Phil DONT collapse your project, I was saying if you read the full post that this would most likely not even solve his problem that worksets in my experience reveal other bugs that you wouldn't have found otherwise.

I didn't. I followed the element IDs that the first of 5 error dialogs popped up and after removing 4 alignments, re-editting a wall profile and twaeking some in place geometry, I was able to get it sorted back the way it was. But it took enough time that if it happened again, I could more easily make a business case for exporting the project to DWG and finishing it up in ACAD!


I use worksets from day one on almost every project I work on and wouldn't not use them. They are much better since 6.0. I have found new users aren't experiencing as many issues with them as we did previously.

I DO like worksets, I just wish this behavior was better understood and that there was a better way to back up to a previous version of a project.


So Greg, I'll be happy to buy you a beer and encourage you in your use of worksets. However I feel your pain too. When they fail you its the worst.

No need. I already drink too much, and this problem didn't help THAT problem, if you know what I mean! Cheers :beer: