ACA vs Revit

[backtothefuture4]

I'm ready to begin learning a BIM software.

Can anyone refer me to public information about AutoDesk's plans for ACA, I've heard they are going to phase it out.

Thank you

[bbeck]

I'm not to sure about Autodesk phasing out ACA. However, they have now bundled
Architectural Desktop with Revit Architecture Suite. This could be interpreted as a sign that they want to make it easier for ACA users to get exposure to Revit without forcing anyone down a particular path at this time.

[backtothefuture4]

I'm not to sure about Autodesk phasing out ACA. However, they have now bundled
Architectural Desktop with Revit Architecture Suite. This could be interpreted as a sign that they want to make it easier for ACA users to get exposure to Revit without forcing anyone down a particular path at this time.

Thank you for the reply

[david.kingham]

From what I have seen/heard they will not be phasing out ACA anytime soon, there is still a huge amount of seats of it in use and it will continue, they would be ignorant to stop supporting it.
There are still areas in the industry it works better than Revit for now. It really depends on the type of work you do. But overall most people will recommend Revit long before they recomended ACA (myself included)

[Revit3D.com]

I had a conversation with an Autodesk employee recently and they called ACA 2.5D. It's just not quite the same as Revit and 3D. If you're really talking about BIM, I can't see how'd you have the choice of ACA versus Revit because you have the combination of Revit Architecture, Revit Structure, Revit MEP and ALL of the peripheral software and analysis tools. I think if IPD starts to get adopted sooner than later, you won't even have a choice.

Also, Autodoesk is out there marketing to government, owners, developers and contractors about BIM. The fact that they don't go out and brag about ACA is pretty indicative of their marketing strategy. They're only keeping ACA alive because of the laggards. Perhaps if ACA data could import right into Revit, then maybe it'd be a consideration. Nah, what am I saying, it's AutoCAD Heavy.

Lastly, does ACA truly "model"? Building + Information + Modeling. Are you really building and how much information does ACA have? 2.5D vs 3D, 4D and 5D!


From what I have seen/heard they will not be phasing out ACA anytime soon, there is still a huge amount of seats of it in use and it will continue, they would be ignorant to stop supporting it.
There are still areas in the industry it works better than Revit for now. It really depends on the type of work you do. But overall most people will recommend Revit long before they recomended ACA (myself included)

[Beancud]

I had a conversation with an Autodesk employee recently and they called ACA 2.5D. It's just not quite the same as Revit and 3D. If you're really talking about BIM, I can't see how'd you have the choice of ACA versus Revit because you have the combination of Revit Architecture, Revit Structure, Revit MEP and ALL of the peripheral software and analysis tools. I think if IPD starts to get adopted sooner than later, you won't even have a choice.

Also, Autodoesk is out there marketing to government, owners, developers and contractors about BIM. The fact that they don't go out and brag about ACA is pretty indicative of their marketing strategy. They're only keeping ACA alive because of the laggards. Perhaps if ACA data could import right into Revit, then maybe it'd be a consideration. Nah, what am I saying, it's AutoCAD Heavy.

Lastly, does ACA truly "model"? Building + Information + Modeling. Are you really building and how much information does ACA have? 2.5D vs 3D, 4D and 5D!

^you sir got it bang on the head!

I wish Autodesk is more harsh on the laggards.

[dbaldacchino]

Plus there is no third party development options within Revit.

You're kidding, right?

[Revit3D.com]

Of course he's kidding. OK everyone, let's agree to disagree. Their will always be a few people with specialized work who will need 2D and 2.5D tools. For those of you in that situation I say 'AutoCAD Revit Architecture Suite 2009.1". It includes AutoCAD, AutoCAD Architecture and Revit Architecture. Revit MEP Suites includes AutoCAD MEP and AutoCAD Architecture. There, problem solved and the big bad Autodesk company has given you the ability to deal with mutiple workfows and software options. Yes, the terrible monopoly is forcing you to have a suite of software options. Now you have to pay for training to learn these new products.

Did you read the brand new 48 page BIM report that shows firms getting 500% ROI from switching to Revit. The battle is over. Revit, BIM and IPD are making A/E firms profit for the first time in 25 years. McGraw-Hill BIM Report Link (http://bimboom.blogspot.com/2008/12/smartmarket-report-on-building.html).

Here's a link for products (http://partnerproducts.autodesk.com/compatiblewith/revit1.asp) compatible with Revit. There are over 50 and the list grows every day. Name one bidirectional structural anaylsis tool for ACA.

Autodesk is continuing to develop ACA, but they keep buying analyisis companies and partnering only with BIM compatible products.


You're kidding, right?

Now for the fun part. ACA is not BIM and will never be BIM. ACA is a linear workflow. The work and errors get passed from person to person along the design chain with NO interoperability. Sorry, you lose this battle every time. It is archaic to think that it imbraces Integrated Project Delivery and I personally believe that you are impedind the Design to Build workflow. Fight your fight and watch the world change around you. I don't want you to move to Revit because I think it's better. I want you to consider the possibilities that you may be wrong and may be excluded from future work because you refuse to accept alternatives. Why are you using ACA anyhow? Why aren't you still using pencil and paper? Someone forced you to switch to digital drafting at some point over the last 25 years and it's not in your best interest to shun new technology.

Revit, with all of it's 3rd party developers, analysis and design tools, visualization options, LEED design linking, estimating capabilities, Facilty Management tie ins all give you more flexibility and capabilites. There's no way to compare line, circles, arcs and polylines to a relational database that can be shared live across the internet with multiple people simultaneously working on a project, in a room. XRefs versus Workset sharing? You must be joking.

Autodesk has invested hundreds of millions of dollars now into BIM products. They're not undermining their own products, their expanding all of them to try to have interoperablity. They're still spending development money on you and your friends that refuse to embrace BIM.

I will agree with you that with some discipline specific fields, Revit is not yet strong enough to contend with, but with the API, third party development, internal development, it will overtake all areas.

It's not a matter of if you move to Revit, it's only a matter of when. You must download it and start practicing with it. I beg you to only because the AEC industry is demanding it. I want you to have a job and make more money. It sounds like in your field, there's a different workflow. Maybe you learn to use Revit within your field, find workarounds for Revit and outshine your peers and become a BIM Consultant.

We love you and we care about your future. We want you to be happy and enjoy your work. We know it's battle fought firm by firm and person by person. We only have these forum discussions to help you and I personally appreciate your stubborness and will fight the battle every time because we all win as a result.


In terms of interoperability and direct integration in a multi-discipline environment ACA far exceeds any comparable capability within Revit. In terms of BIM - taken as a process that encompasses the whole design procedure from conceptual to facility management the plethora of Autocad based options provide much more flexibility and capabilities.

It is obviously in Autodesks interest to undermine their own product ACA to persuade potential customers to adopt or move to the Revit camp. Working solely in Revit restricts the user to the Revit way of doing things there are no alternatives.

Don't get me wrong - it is a good suite of programs - but in my line of work I prefer to be able to offer a choice of programs for the various discipline specific applications.

[jaberwok]

I had a conversation with an Autodesk employee recently and they called ACA 2.5D.


which was disingenuous. AutoCAD R10 was called 2.5D because it had no real 3D objects just 2D objects given depth/thickness.

[dbaldacchino]

But hold on a second, you're talking about two completely separate issues here.

Revit is purpose-built for buildings. Autocad is not. It can be customized for a wide range of industries, while Revit is purpose-built for buildings. There are already a lot of 3rd part applications sprouting out there to automate certain functions in Revit. If that's not 3rd party development, then I don't know what is. Autocad requires a ton of 3rd party apps because it's just an infrastructure/platform which you have to customize to your very specific needs if you want to be profitable and productive.

Here's an example:

www.strucsoftsolutions.com (http://www.strucsoftsolutions.com)

[david.kingham]

The tone of this thread is really going downhill. I have kindly asked Greg to control himself (you might love Revit a bit too much Greg :) ) I would advise everyone else to do the same. Lets keep this professional.

Each program has it's good and bad points and as I said has it's use in certain fields, I would disagree with you Greg that ACA is not a BIM product. If it is used properly (which most people don't) it can actually be much more powerful than Revit. It's not just lines and arcs, it's objects just like Revit and you can embed all the data you want just like Revit. The products are becoming very similar. No reason to bash ACA in an attempt to make Revit look better.

[RobertB]

... Lastly, does ACA truly "model"? Building + Information + Modeling. Are you really building and how much information does ACA have? 2.5D vs 3D, 4D and 5D!Sigh. This fervor for one piece of software other another to provide BIM conceals some serious issues on the non-architectural side of things.

Electrically, Revit MEP, flat out, does not cut the mustard. Remember, Building + Information + Modeling. Since you cannot tell a conduit (which doesn't even exist) how many wires are contained in it, it isn't really BIM. Since you cannot create electrical loads with correct demand factors, it isn't really BIM. Since the contractors cannot rely on the model due to the need to kludge so many things, is it really BIM?

I think not.

No firm should ignore BIM, but we must not get lost in the hype that Revit=BIM. BIM can be accomplished in many different software applications and should not be locked into one platform by the architect. Yes, life is more simple for the team when everyone is using Revit-based software. But Revit makes life harder for the electrical engineer. I have not lost hope that things will improve but our architectural clients need to recognize that the software (Revit) is not really for electrical design. Yes, we can make pretty little models in Revit MEP. But that is only part of the BIM equation.

[backtothefuture4]

Of course he's kidding. OK everyone, let's agree to disagree. Their will always be a few people with specialized work who will need 2D and 2.5D tools. For those of you in that situation I say 'AutoCAD Revit Architecture Suite 2009.1". It includes AutoCAD, AutoCAD Architecture and Revit Architecture. Revit MEP Suites includes AutoCAD MEP and AutoCAD Architecture. There, problem solved and the big bad Autodesk company has given you the ability to deal with mutiple workfows and software options. Yes, the terrible monopoly is forcing you to have a suite of software options. Now you have to pay for training to learn these new products.

Did you read the brand new 48 page BIM report that shows firms getting 500% ROI from switching to Revit. The battle is over. Revit, BIM and IPD are making A/E firms profit for the first time in 25 years. McGraw-Hill BIM Report Link (http://bimboom.blogspot.com/2008/12/smartmarket-report-on-building.html).

Here's a link for products (http://partnerproducts.autodesk.com/compatiblewith/revit1.asp) compatible with Revit. There are over 50 and the list grows every day. Name one bidirectional structural anaylsis tool for ACA.

Autodesk is continuing to develop ACA, but they keep buying analyisis companies and partnering only with BIM compatible products.



Now for the fun part. ACA is not BIM and will never be BIM. ACA is a linear workflow. The work and errors get passed from person to person along the design chain with NO interoperability. Sorry, you lose this battle every time. It is archaic to think that it imbraces Integrated Project Delivery and I personally believe that you are impedind the Design to Build workflow. Fight your fight and watch the world change around you. I don't want you to move to Revit because I think it's better. I want you to consider the possibilities that you may be wrong and may be excluded from future work because you refuse to accept alternatives. Why are you using ACA anyhow? Why aren't you still using pencil and paper? Someone forced you to switch to digital drafting at some point over the last 25 years and it's not in your best interest to shun new technology.

Revit, with all of it's 3rd party developers, analysis and design tools, visualization options, LEED design linking, estimating capabilities, Facilty Management tie ins all give you more flexibility and capabilites. There's no way to compare line, circles, arcs and polylines to a relational database that can be shared live across the internet with multiple people simultaneously working on a project, in a room. XRefs versus Workset sharing? You must be joking.

Autodesk has invested hundreds of millions of dollars now into BIM products. They're not undermining their own products, their expanding all of them to try to have interoperablity. They're still spending development money on you and your friends that refuse to embrace BIM.

I will agree with you that with some discipline specific fields, Revit is not yet strong enough to contend with, but with the API, third party development, internal development, it will overtake all areas.

It's not a matter of if you move to Revit, it's only a matter of when. You must download it and start practicing with it. I beg you to only because the AEC industry is demanding it. I want you to have a job and make more money. It sounds like in your field, there's a different workflow. Maybe you learn to use Revit within your field, find workarounds for Revit and outshine your peers and become a BIM Consultant.

We love you and we care about your future. We want you to be happy and enjoy your work. We know it's battle fought firm by firm and person by person. We only have these forum discussions to help you and I personally appreciate your stubborness and will fight the battle every time because we all win as a result.

Thank you very much, you have pushed me a little closer to taking a Revit class even though my firm is committed (currently) to ACA. I've been using AutoCAD almost 20 years, it's never been a very good architectural program.

[backtothefuture4]

Below is a reply from a community college about taking an ACA class.

We do not teach ACA simply because there is not an industry demand. AutoDESK almost dropped Architectural Desktop a few years ago, but had enough of an uproar that they kept it around. REVIT is the replacement software – doing very similar things.

I know of only 1 or 2 firms in town that have used it. One has since switched to another software. I do not know of any other places in town. Seiler Instruments does have training workshops on it at various times. You could check their webpage. Just Google Seiler.

Hope this helps.

Mary

Humm?

[jaberwok]

Below is a reply from a community college about taking an ACA class.

We do not teach ACA simply because there is not an industry demand. AutoDESK almost dropped Architectural Desktop a few years ago, but had enough of an uproar that they kept it around. REVIT is the replacement software – doing very similar things.

I know of only 1 or 2 firms in town that have used it. One has since switched to another software. I do not know of any other places in town. Seiler Instruments does have training workshops on it at various times. You could check their webpage. Just Google Seiler.

Hope this helps.

Mary


To paraphrase - "no one teaches ACA because there is no demand and everyone should be using Revit; but no one is using Revit and one company who tried it changed to something else."

:screwy:

[backtothefuture4]

That's not quite right!.

I am not going to prolong this debate by going into detail - but I would say before users make a final decision, do proper informed research by carefully reading the information on the Autodesk website and perhaps even dropping them an email directly with any queries - you will find them very informative and without bias.

It was copied from her email reply.

[Brian Myers]

I know of only 1 or 2 firms in town that have used it. One has since switched to another software. I do not know of any other places in town. Seiler Instruments does have training workshops on it at various times. You could check their webpage. Just Google Seiler.


Since you are mentioning Seiler, you most likely are either in St Louis, Chicago, or KC. There are many firms in all those cities currently using Revit. Arcturis, Christner, Forum Studio, HOK, The Lawrence Group, Oculus, Ross & Baruzzini and many more I know currently use Revit on some (and in many cases, all) projects and that's just in St Louis. It's growing in use fast. :beer:

[H-Angus]

With all this Revit Vs ACA debate which has raged on since the dawn of time, well for a while anyway, in this and countless other threads, why do people insist on pointing out the bad points of whichever piece of software they do not use, instead of highlighting the good points of the software they do use, how it's been implemented, how it has made you more productive, etc.

We use both products depending on the job at hand and they both have their limitations, neither is all singing and all dancing in every situation.

Well that's my tuppence anyway :)

[backtothefuture4]

With all this Revit Vs ACA debate which has raged on since the dawn of time, well for a while anyway, in this and countless other threads, why do people insist on pointing out the bad points of whichever piece of software they do not use, instead of highlighting the good points of the software they do use, how it's been implemented, how it has made you more productive, etc.

We use both products depending on the job at hand and they both have their limitations, neither is all singing and all dancing in every situation.

Well that's my tuppence anyway :)

Unfortunately we only use ACA at our firm and don't use it much in a 3D way, I have not tried to learn how to model with ACA becaused there was talk about discontinued development, Recently I've bit the bullet and tried to find a night school class on ACA, but I have not found one, Revit is offered.

Our IT guy doe not support using Revit even on a limited basis, so it hard for me to ask our firm to pitch-in on the class. I feel I've been stuck in a rut for many years with AutoCAD/ACA and feel the need to move to the next level. I may end up taking the class on my own, work wise I don't know what to do.

Signed Confused

[H-Angus]

Unfortunately we only use ACA at our firm and don't use it much in a 3D way, I have not tried to learn how to model with ACA becaused there was talk about discontinued development, Recently I've bit the bullet and tried to find a night school class on ACA, but I have not found one, Revit is offered.

Our IT guy doe not support using Revit even on a limited basis, so it hard for me to ask our firm to pitch-in on the class. I feel I've been stuck in a rut for many years with AutoCAD/ACA and feel the need to move to the next level. I may end up taking the class on my own, work wise I don't know what to do.

Signed Confused

Well the fact that Revit and ACA are now available together for a similar subscription cost to what they were individually may be something you can take to your IT guy to persuade them to at least have a look at Revit, although I can understand the reluctance to switch over, a wholesale switch to another piece of software can be costly in the short term until you get up to speed.
You could also download the Trial version of Revit from the Autodesk website (which comes with a quickstart type tutorial) just to get a bit more insight for yourself.

As far as training and courses go I'm not sure what is offered by Colleges etc in your area but the Approved Autodesk Resellers should offer courses and the AUGI run events may interest you (CAD Camps).

Also have a look at the ATP Courses and AU Handouts available here (http://www.augi.com/education/default.asp) which may be of use to you, as far as ACA goes the ATP129 will probably be worth a look, it takes you through a full project from start to finish using video tutorials (although the ATP team are still in the process of uploading the videos they should be available soon).

[backtothefuture4]

Well the fact that Revit and ACA are now available together for a similar subscription cost to what they were individually may be something you can take to your IT guy to persuade them to at least have a look at Revit, although I can understand the reluctance to switch over, a wholesale switch to another piece of software can be costly in the short term until you get up to speed.
You could also download the Trial version of Revit from the Autodesk website (which comes with a quickstart type tutorial) just to get a bit more insight for yourself.

As far as training and courses go I'm not sure what is offered by Colleges etc in your area but the Approved Autodesk Resellers should offer courses and the AUGI run events may interest you (CAD Camps).

Also have a look at the ATP Courses and AU Handouts available here (http://www.augi.com/education/default.asp) which may be of use to you, as far as ACA goes the ATP129 will probably be worth a look, it takes you through a full project from start to finish using video tutorials (although the ATP team are still in the process of uploading the videos they should be available soon).

Thanks for your help, I'll give them a look.

[Revit3D.com]

It's funny you mention Ross & Barruzzini. We're doing all of their training now. Locally for their Miami office and via live webcast for St. Louis. Unfortunately, they were not very happy with their local training options and we were thrilled to step in and help them along.
Check out their blog, http://revit.rossbar.com. Part of your success with Revit is the quality of training and support you get. It's a big problem in a lot of areas and is just going to get worse as Autodesk rolls out more and more BIM products.

Since David said I was a little to harsh in a previous post, Backtothefuture4, you can sit in on our Revit class via live remote webcast. It's the second Monday-Wednesday of the month. I"ll guarantee you our teachers can get you up and running on Revit. If someone switched to another product, I'm sure it was bad training. Our main Revit teacher is ranked number 2 nationally right now, so what do you have to lose.

Revit is the new CAD - Coordination, Analysis and Design!



Since you are mentioning Seiler, you most likely are either in St Louis, Chicago, or KC. There are many firms in all those cities currently using Revit. Arcturis, Christner, Forum Studio, HOK, The Lawrence Group, Oculus, Ross & Baruzzini and many more I know currently use Revit on some (and in many cases, all) projects and that's just in St Louis. It's growing in use fast. :beer:

[Brian Myers]

It's funny you mention Ross & Barruzzin.

I don't know about funny, if you read their first post they mention Seiler and praise the training on Revit Architecture... I was Seiler's trainer. :roll: I had been training for a while then but was only just starting to learn Revit MEP so we didn't offer that service. Later I began teaching all three Revit flavors and I got a lot of praise for my abilities. I also refined my Revit Architecture presentations/training over time. I remember them and they are good people.

But I've trained several hundred individuals on Revit before moving on to my current role as a BIM manager in STL. :beer:

[Revit3D.com]

Dilbet, my apologies. It was the Revit MEP training from another company that they were very unhappy with. Didn't mean to imply it was Seiler. That's what we helped them with.


I don't know about funny, if you read their first post they mention Seiler and praise the training on Revit Architecture... I was Seiler's trainer. :roll: I had been training for a while then but was only just starting to learn Revit MEP so we didn't offer that service. Later I began teaching all three Revit flavors and I got a lot of praise for my abilities. I also refined my Revit Architecture presentations/training over time. I remember them and they are good people.

But I've trained several hundred individuals on Revit before moving on to my current role as a BIM manager in STL. :beer:

[michael.12445]

Kind of an interesting discussion...our firm is moving, albeit very haltingly, towards BIM, and our tool of choice for doing so is Revit Architecture. ACA was never really under consideration. I think the principal who initiated this move was more impressed by Revit as a "pure" approach to BIM, rather than something built on top of AutoCAD. I supported his choice for my own reasons - I think I had a few too many run-ins with rogue ARX objects over the years, so I distrust anything built using that mechanism.

[leothebuilder]

I believe both Revit and ACA are aspiring BIM programs. Neither have reached BIM status as far as I am concerned. Revit forces you to create a 3d model whilst ACA allows you to "cheat" a lot more easily. But because of the fact that Revit creates a 3d model does not mean BIM per se. ACA more often does not get used properly to it's fullest capability. I have seen people use it to place walls, doors and windows and do the rest in 2d linework. I think ACA's scheduling capabilities are awsome.
BIM won't go away and is here to stay. We must all jump on board or get left behind. Which platform is the best will remain open for discussion. Remember five or six years ago, the word BIM wasn't even thought of. Just think of what we will see five or six years from today.

Leo

[cphubb]

This thread should be stopped before any more damage s done.

Guys BIM is not about software and it is not about ACA vs. Revit vs. Archicad. The faster we stop this redicululas argument the faster we can all move to BIM.

I agree that neither Revit or ACA are BIM. They are tools that allow us to do BIM. Just like a hammer is not a building, it allows us to create buildings. The tool you choose does not define whether or not you are doing BIM the final outcome defines BIM.

In 1995 I did a research project in college where we create a full 3D building is Generic Autocad and use the xData to make the model more intelligent. We were then able to use that data and some good lisp programming to create working drawings from the model and generate data for the contractor to build the project. This took lots of time, effort and research and in a non-academic envorinment cost way more than any fee could cover for the house that was eventually constructed. But I contend that what I produced was BIM at least at some level. Revit and ACA make what I did easier and cheaper, they do not have the lock on the BIM market.

To further illustrate my point I would like to point everybody at a couple of different pieces of data. Contractors are noting that designers are using 1/3 of the capabilities of BIM, primarily to produce documents, and those are not necessarly coordinated. Plus this has allowed the contractors to coin the term VDC because in their opinion designers are failing at BIM so they are attempting to dumb it down and promote VDC as the TRUE process for virtual building.

Now I am not trying to start a new argument about BIM vs. VDC because I think they are synonymous but all of the arguments above fall flat when trying to describe true BIM.

Thanks

[dbaldacchino]

Funny, but I forgot what the acronym "VDC" stands for and I can't pull an explanation in Google!

[H-Angus]

Funny, but I forgot what the acronym "VDC" stands for and I can't pull an explanation in Google!

Virtual Design Construction I think :beer:

vur-choo-uhl di-zahyn & kuh n-struhk-shun :razz:

[cphubb]

Virtual Design and Construction

[dbaldacchino]

haha thanks guys, brain-freeze :)

[pheadpro]

I must take issue with some of your characterization concerning those ACA users and BIM. I am a department representative on our company CAD Standard Committee; I have 20 years of experience in Architecture and have used every version of AutoCAD since 2.5 to my current use of AutoDesk Architecture 2009. Our CAD Manager is a member of the National BIM standards committee this year and what we have noticed is that no one has a good practical application definition of BIM. So far, the email discussions we have received consist of various professionals at different levels and in different disciplines arguing about the definition of BIM. Some want to float around up in the clouds making lovely fluffy statements about how BIM will 'redefine the industry' and 'the paradigm shift of design'... blah blah.. While others are wringing their hands about convincing more people to embrace BIM. A few have actually tried to dissect BIM and expound on its meaning.
However, Not One has broached the subject of the real world Nuts-N-Bolts application of how do you take all the skill sets in AutoCAD other any other design package that have been developed over years & years of work, as well as the customizations in menus, blocks, styles, & office standards, and transition all of this into an entirely different style of design interface (without the entire company ending up in a padded cell).
I have seen several books over the years like “Microstation for AutoCAD Users” and similar tutorials. In my exploration of Revit up to this point (and I have been learning it for about 2 years now on my own), I have not seen much solid information in the configuration help that bridges the gap between AutoCAD and Revit. It seems that no one wants to accept the challenge of telling all the AutoCAD users, ‘this is how you take your configs in AutoCAD and here is where to find the same stuff in Revit’. Until someone steps up with this kind of information, there will be a lot of skeptical users out here that will resist Revit.
The other thing that the Revit-vangislist need to do, is to expand the presentation of Revit to include engineers and the subjects that mean things to them. Revit and Building Information Modeling is great, but without the Civil engineers backing the effort up, it will only go so far. They really don’t care how wonderful the building management information is; they want to know can that same power be applied to land development. Industrial, Electrical, Mechanical, Plumbing and all other types of engineers need to be included as well. They will want base line real world data to prove the benefit of Revit and BIM. They will require case studies that detail the application of this data that they can analyze and question. It will require some real proof to win over this group, but if you want to compress the time frame of adoption, get the engineers onboard.

[cphubb]

I must take issue with some of your characterization concerning those ACA users and BIM. I am a department representative on our company CAD Standard Committee; I have 20 years of experience in Architecture and have used every version of AutoCAD since 2.5 to my current use of AutoDesk Architecture 2009. Our CAD Manager is a member of the National BIM standards committee this year and what we have noticed is that no one has a good practical application definition of BIM. So far, the email discussions we have received consist of various professionals at different levels and in different disciplines arguing about the definition of BIM. Some want to float around up in the clouds making lovely fluffy statements about how BIM will 'redefine the industry' and 'the paradigm shift of design'... blah blah.. While others are wringing their hands about convincing more people to embrace BIM. A few have actually tried to dissect BIM and expound on its meaning.
However, Not One has broached the subject of the real world Nuts-N-Bolts application of how do you take all the skill sets in AutoCAD other any other design package that have been developed over years & years of work, as well as the customizations in menus, blocks, styles, & office standards, and transition all of this into an entirely different style of design interface (without the entire company ending up in a padded cell).
I have seen several books over the years like “Microstation for AutoCAD Users” and similar tutorials. In my exploration of Revit up to this point (and I have been learning it for about 2 years now on my own), I have not seen much solid information in the configuration help that bridges the gap between AutoCAD and Revit. It seems that no one wants to accept the challenge of telling all the AutoCAD users, ‘this is how you take your configs in AutoCAD and here is where to find the same stuff in Revit’. Until someone steps up with this kind of information, there will be a lot of skeptical users out here that will resist Revit.
The other thing that the Revit-vangislist need to do, is to expand the presentation of Revit to include engineers and the subjects that mean things to them. Revit and Building Information Modeling is great, but without the Civil engineers backing the effort up, it will only go so far. They really don’t care how wonderful the building management information is; they want to know can that same power be applied to land development. Industrial, Electrical, Mechanical, Plumbing and all other types of engineers need to be included as well. They will want base line real world data to prove the benefit of Revit and BIM. They will require case studies that detail the application of this data that they can analyze and question. It will require some real proof to win over this group, but if you want to compress the time frame of adoption, get the engineers onboard.

Again I want to point out everyone is missing the point. BIM can be done with Autocad, it is just more difficult.
The other thing that the Revit-vangislist need to do, is to expand the presentation of Revit to include engineers and the subjects that mean things to them Do you think this is not happening? We are using multiple consultants in BIM MEP, sructural and civil. Not all of them use Revit, but all understand BIM.


They will want base line real world data to prove the benefit of Revit and BIM. They will require case studies that detail the application of this data that they can analyze and question. There is quite a bit of this already. Most engineers are ready to start using BIM if for no other reason than their architect required it.

I just want to reiterate that this kind of argument does disservice to the whole concept of BIM and shows how we get caught up in arguments that make no sense. This is not about Revit or Autocad or Microstaton or ACA. It is about a fundimental change in the way buildings will be designed and constructed. People can embrace that and move forward or stand stubbornly and become an anachronism

[pheadpro]

Hi cphubb,

I got carried away with my rant before reading your post. You make very good arguements for the broader subject of BIM as a process not a specific tool.
Thank you for raising the level of the discussion. You are correct that this is not an AutoCAD vs Microstation issue or any other program flavor. It is about taking what we do in design and moving it forward to a much more useful form.
The issue of getting engineers onboard does have some progress; you are again correct that there are many pursuing this goal. I am actually an architect in an engineering company (I'm doing my best to corrupt them, hee, hee :-) ). We are using Civil 3D, AutoCAD Architecture, and CADWorx. We are very interested and involved in helping to promote, define, and learn what BIM means and how to 'do it' so to speak.
Thanks for shining the light on this discussion. I hope to learn more from you as we continue.

[misterarvin]

I have only been using Revit for a couple of weeks (in a Drafting class for college) but I find it to be very user friendly.

If your CAD literate, then i believe Revit is your friend!

I'm new in the Autodesk world too, and I enjoy this program.

goodluck!

[Heng562]

I'm currently using Revit and I'm learning alot of new functions that [simplify] the building process.

[Rob_Miller]

I'm the CAD Manager for a small Engineering firm and have faced the difficulties of dealing with Architects that are using Revit. What makes it so frustrating is that Autodesk hasn't put out a MEP solution that is even remotely viable. So we are faced with the task of moving forward with AutoCAD MEP (which, if used correctly can be a much more powerful tool than Revit MEP) while trying to extract information out of a Revit model.

I personally feel that the whole Revit "Rah-Rah" could be detrimental to the AEC industry ... instead we should be placing our thumbs on the necks of Autodesk, Bentley, and Graphicsoft to start to better talk with each other or adhere to the IFC guidelines. Most of our project headaches have been spawned from the exporting process from Revit.

Having seen ACA used to a level above just taking advantage of the 2D walls, I can assure you that ACA is every bit of BIM as Revit. Revit builds the model a little easier, but can't touch the flexibility of ACA. All and all, I believe we could have a very powerful tool if Autodesk would ever decide to do this whole software debate right ... combine the ease of use of Revit for design build with power of the AutoCAD platform.

I know that many would be excited about the thought of one great tool over that of two incomplete tools ... but the realities are that it would be easier to pull ACA and ACM up to the level of ARA and ARM.

Also, our firm has been fed the line of using Revit because our current projects are being done in Revit. But the fact is that an Engineering firm needs to be able to be more flexible than an Architectural firm. It's not uncommon for us to have jobs being worked on in Microstation, AutoCAD, Revit, and ArchiCAD. Revit doesn't solve the compatibility issue with the other possible BIM software.

[cphubb]

I'll have to disagree with a couple of points. First Revit MEP is usable and is being used effectively by a number of firms large and small. Yes it has a way to go to catch ACAD MEP but the current version is useable.

Second, ACA is light years behind ACAD MEP in terms of data storage and interoperability. The amount of work to get ACA where Revit is now is huge not to mention the whole Object Enabler nightmare and the fact that ACA is still stuck in CAD and therefore will not move forward as a unified model.

I agree that all consultants (structural MEP etc) will need to be more flexible than architects and will have to use the platform that their clients are using. I also argee that interoperability across multiple plaftorms is critical to BIM succeeding. However tyring to make AutoDesk and Bentley listen is like talking to a 2 year old. Not much love there.

[Rob_Miller]

I'll have to disagree with a couple of points. First Revit MEP is usable and is being used effectively by a number of firms large and small. Yes it has a way to go to catch ACAD MEP but the current version is useable.

Second, ACA is light years behind ACAD MEP in terms of data storage and interoperability. The amount of work to get ACA where Revit is now is huge not to mention the whole Object Enabler nightmare and the fact that ACA is still stuck in CAD and therefore will not move forward as a unified model.

I agree that all consultants (structural MEP etc) will need to be more flexible than architects and will have to use the platform that their clients are using. I also argee that interoperability across multiple plaftorms is critical to BIM succeeding. However trying to make AutoDesk and Bentley listen is like talking to a 2 year old. Not much love there.

Sure there are MEP firms that are using Revit MEP, but how many of them are relying on AutoCAD or AutoCAD MEP to handle certain key functions of their deliverable? Revit MEP as a two year old program has too many holes in it right now to be able to not also use one or two other programs to complete a whole MEP job. The program is usable, but it's not viable from the stand point that it can't be used for some basic functions of a job (already been mentioned about how conduit isn't even an option in Revit). Even Autodesk recognizes the deficiencies of Revit when it comes to creating construction documents.

I still believe that ACA is closer to ARA than ARA is to ACA in capabilities. Revit is a Mac, while AutoCAD is a PC. Some don't like Revit because it's not flexible enough, while others dislike AutoCAD because it's too flexible. I just hope Autodesk understands that both can be right and will work on making them talk to each other.

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, don't Object Enablers only come into play if you are trying to open an ACA drawing and you don't have a vertical package? If so, a Revit file would face the same issue for a user without Revit (I don't believe there is a viewer for Revit files).

Data storage in ACA is really no different than AutoCAD MEP ... property data sets can be applied to any type of object. Is that a capability in Revit? Once a property set has been defined and applied to an object, as long as you take the time to learn how they work it not too difficult to pull information to schedule.

As far as Bentley and Autodesk goes ... our money is what they both are looking to earn. In the end they can only succeed as long as we continue to purchase and use their software. Effectively they work for us ... plus they have begun to talk with each other more than in the past. I believe the European market has it right, in so much that they are pushing the IFC format. It's time for us in the States to do the same, instead of getting caught up in the software debate as BIM is a concept not a software.

Hopefully, I don't come across wrong ... cheers.

[mitch.cornelius]

Maybe I'll chime in.


Sure there are MEP firms that are using Revit MEP, but how many of them are relying on AutoCAD or AutoCAD MEP to handle certain key functions of their deliverable? Revit MEP as a two year old program has too many holes in it right now to be able to not also use one or two other programs to complete a whole MEP job. The program is usable, but it's not viable from the stand point that it can't be used for some basic functions of a job (already been mentioned about how conduit isn't even an option in Revit). Even Autodesk recognizes the deficiencies of Revit when it comes to creating construction documents.
I do see several companies working on projects in RME from start to finish and any architects or engineers that I have spoken with about Revit agree that Construction Documentation is where Revit really shines.



I still believe that ACA is closer to ARA than ARA is to ACA in capabilities. Revit is a Mac, while AutoCAD is a PC. Some don't like Revit because it's not flexible enough, while others dislike AutoCAD because it's too flexible. I just hope Autodesk understands that both can be right and will work on making them talk to each other.Agreed. The interoperability thing kills me...how can we expect Bentley and Autodesk and ArchiCAD to work together if their own programs don't really work with themselves?


Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, don't Object Enablers only come into play if you are trying to open an ACA drawing and you don't have a vertical package? If so, a Revit file would face the same issue for a user without Revit (I don't believe there is a viewer for Revit files).Object enablers are huge for working in other software packages besides AutoCAD. Any program that is trying to open a .dwg file from another program is going to require object enablers for it to work properly. The biggest issue for us is in NavisWorks.

There is a viewer for Revit (kind of). Just install Revit and wait for the 30 day trial to run out, it becomes a viewer.


Data storage in ACA is really no different than AutoCAD MEP ... property data sets can be applied to any type of object. Is that a capability in Revit? Once a property set has been defined and applied to an object, as long as you take the time to learn how they work it not too difficult to pull information to schedule.The extraction of that information is where Revit works the best. The database export from Revit allows for a lot of incredible functionality.


...instead of getting caught up in the software debate as BIM is a concept not a softwareAmen.

[msteven]

I think of Revit, Microstation, and other sim. programs as a step to the next level. Where ever that is. Just like AutoCAD was the next step to hand drafting. When AutoCAD was getting started, it was explained to me that AutoCAD was just a tool to help everyone draw more accurately and faster. But it was just another tool to get the drawings done faster. It also help a lot of firms keep the engineers and architects in the office more often, because the lines were drawn faster and that lead to more drawings to be created. The more drawings we created allowed the dectection of possible conflicts. So Revit, Microstation, ArchiCAD and other programs similar are the next step in the drawing creation process. To me BIM and VDC are just new terms in helping me create the drawings faster, accurately, detect conflicts and possibly do a building material take off. So BIM is another term used like CAD was a few years ago. I say a few years, because I am that old:)
I personnally like Revit more than ACA. I also see Autodesk playing the greed game. They will do everything they can to put more money in there pockets and if that means to extend the life of AutoCAD for another 20 years to make that extra multi-million dollars, then I am sure they will do that. So I think the winner is Autodesk in the ACA vs Revit.

[Beancud]

I think of Revit, Microstation, and other sim. programs as a step to the next level. Where ever that is. Just like AutoCAD was the next step to hand drafting. When AutoCAD was getting started, it was explained to me that AutoCAD was just a tool to help everyone draw more accurately and faster. But it was just another tool to get the drawings done faster. It also help a lot of firms keep the engineers and architects in the office more often, because the lines were drawn faster and that lead to more drawings to be created. The more drawings we created allowed the dectection of possible conflicts. So Revit, Microstation, ArchiCAD and other programs similar are the next step in the drawing creation process. To me BIM and VDC are just new terms in helping me create the drawings faster, accurately, detect conflicts and possibly do a building material take off. So BIM is another term used like CAD was a few years ago. I say a few years, because I am that old:)
I personnally like Revit more than ACA. I also see Autodesk playing the greed game. They will do everything they can to put more money in there pockets and if that means to extend the life of AutoCAD for another 20 years to make that extra multi-million dollars, then I am sure they will do that. So I think the winner is Autodesk in the ACA vs Revit.

Yes you are completely right. At the end of the day Autodesk wins.

Who knows, in 20 years time there will be super efficient intelligent Revit users using BIM, while single line users may still exist.