Copy/Monitor architect's MEP elements - will our model be sluggish?

[matt__w]

The topic of copy/monitoring the architect's lights, fixtures, etc... came up today. I told them we can do it if we need to - we haven't done it on a job yet. I'm a little hesitant to do this because I'm afraid having everything C/M'd (which is what the project manager will want to do) is going to just bog down and slow down OUR model. Is there any truth or documentation to support this?

Thanks in advance!
Matt

[KGC]

I am not sure of how C/M affects model performance.

I am running into an issue where we originally C/M every wall for the structural model. Problem is, that the team was never shown how to review/fix/comment this changes. So several months later i get brought on, and there are hundreds of coordination issues.

In my opinion a lot of this is a communication issue. Yes i think some of the walls should be monitored but not every single wall.

We also just went through all the models, stopped the monitoring and re-associated everything for a fresh start.

I'm still not sure of the best process for this yet....

[timsea81]

Never tried it but was advised against it by the guy who came into our office to teach us Revit when we first got the program.

[matt__w]

Could you clarify?? Were you told to not use C/M for MEP objects ONLY or just in general? I would think, at the very least, you'd use it to copy/monitor levels, no?

Just curious.
Matt

[KGC]

I most def use it to copy levels and grids and monitor those. I think it depends on the project though as to how far you want to use it.

[daniel.morrison]

There is no reason for you to have to copy monitor architect's lights - you are the engineers that should be selecting said lights. Are you sure the lights you C/M will have all the correct information and parameters to match your model? It would be better for the architect to C/M your light (thus ensuring they have the correct fitting/ approx layout) and then you can Monitor only their position. Either that or you need to send your family to the architect first, and trust them to layout the lights in the correct manner.

We are trying to get the Architect to copy monitor our items if C/M is needed at all. MEP are the ones who will be changing lights/ diffusers etc for engineering reasons, moving them to match the ceiling layout is comparitively a very minor issue. Trouble is getting the architects to realise they are not the be all and end all any more can be quite difficult, but for the enlightened architects out there we now only have an argument to C/M their bathroom fixtures (toilets etc) as in that case there is a lot more input from the architects and not as much engineering involved.

Overall, C/M'ing of the amount of lights in even a medium sized project will slow down the job when opening and when updating links as it will need to check each of these links, it shouldn't slow down your model whilst working on it though. The biggest problem I can see is the amount of times you may run a lighting calc and decide you need 1 extra light in a room - you and the architect will have to do another C/M every time this occurs, and in that case it would be more efficient if they were the ones establishing the connection from your new fitting, rather than you C/M'ing from them. You both need to decide if the benifits of C/M'in are worth this hassle.

Hope this makes sense.

[Misteracad]

Matt, what version of Revit MEP are you using? If it is 2011, I would think that you would want to use the Batch Copy tool, and C/M the architect's lights that way. Per Daniel's comments, you should be dictating what light to use of course, but you can use the Type Mapping feature within the Batch Copy tool to select the correct fixtures for your model. That way the architect's model controls the LOCATION of the lights, but it is YOUR light fixture that is placed in the MEP model, thus giving you the ability to connect to it.

Going forward you could then use Visibility Graphics to turn off the architect's version in your views so there are no duplicates showing in your Views. However, after receiving an updated architectural model, you should get into a habit of turning on the Reveal Hidden Elements icon on the View Control Bar to display the hidden fixutures. That way you can verify that the fixtures placed in the MEP model are still in synch with the architect's model. Of course the Coordination Review tool will serve this purpose as well.

On a related note, contrary to what Daniel said...

<snip> It would be better for the architect to C/M your light (thus ensuring they have the correct fitting/ approx layout) and then you can Monitor only their position.<snip>

<snip>We are trying to get the Architect to copy monitor our items if C/M is needed at all.<snip>

...there is no Batch Copy function in Revit Architecture, so therefore it is NOT possible for the architect to C/M MEP objects. If the architect really wants your Families, they would need to "steal" them out of the MEP model, or you could be nice and send them along under separate cover

As far as performance implications, I haven't heard of anything significant, but one should logically expect there to be some degradation in speed. To be honest, it's the lesser of two evils. If you DON'T C/M the architect's fixtures, then you are stuck finding a workaround like Copying/Pasting the fixtures manually like we had to do in 2010 and prior versions. However, then there is no link, and any movement of the fixture location would have to be maintained by the user. Good luck keeping up with that lol!

All in all I can't imagine NOT using the Batch Copy tool for coordination with the architect's model. This was a major plus for the 2011 product, and one you should be taking advantage of...assuming you have it lol

[RevitNinja]

I recently worked with a team that was the first to try C/M with light fixtures (in my organization). When I first heard about this functionality, I was really excited because I thought that this was essentially a way for us to "convert" ceiling based fixtures to face-based fixtures...and it is...sort of...

The first time we tried it with the batch copy option, it worked fine until we actually had to edit one of the fixtures to add electrical data. The fixture looked fine in the model from all views, but in the family editor, it appeared to be "detached" from the theoretical face that is present in face-based families. I had to adjust a dimension to get the fixture to adhere to the surface, because after the batch copy process, it was about 8 feet away from it. Revit recognized that it had been converted to face-based, but something screwy happened during the conversion.

The second time we did it, we decided to use the mapping feature. We already had light fixtures that we use on all our projects. These are all face-based and contain our shared parameters. We plugged them in as substitutes for the architect's and then ran the C/M. We quickly found out that the architect's fixtures were all modeled differently in terms of where the base point was located. In Revit's effort to drop our families' base point on top of the architectural fixtures' base point, we ended up with fixtures that needed to be moved in one direction or another in order to match the exact location. Of course, because of the Monitor function, Revit screamed at us whenever we moved a fixture and presented the "Coordination Alert."

So we tried to use the "Stop Monitoring" button that appears when a fixture is selected. I figured this would work well for fixtures that needed to be moved manually. I was wrong there too. When you stop monitoring a face-based fixture, guess what...it loses its association to its host.

Luckily there were not many fixtures that had to be moved, otherwise this would have been a nightmare.

I also think that while this functionality will improve the workflow between architects and engineers using Revit, it does need to be tweaked on the development side. I would love to see a regular batch copy operation that doesn't freak out when you turn off the monitor part.

[Misteracad]

Good point Ninja! The base point of both the architect's fixtures and the mapped MEP fixtures must be the same...doh! Considering that this feature was brand new in 2011, one can only hope that it will be improved for 2012. Fingers crossed