Dimension in Paper Space or Model?

[Misteracad]

...If you go by the rule that I was taught in tech school in the early eighties, a dimension should only appear once in a set of construction drawings, and it should appear where it is MOST relevant -- that is, don't dimension the bathroom on the site plan and don't dimension the lot setback on the reflected ceiling plan...

AGREED!!!!! If more people would follow that rule, there would be less grief in the CAD world today LOL But alas, educational facilities don't want to teach "old school" methods (aka board drafting), despite how important the basics are even in today's electronic age.

I know this is a bit off topic, but IMO should be reiterated...over and over and over...do not duplicate! Dimensions are a touchy subject for me and one I spend a lot of time on when teaching. Knowing how to create dimensions CORRECTLY in CAD (setting variables etc.) are a topic in and of itself, but knowing how to place dimensions PROPERLY are yet another topic and one most newbies never learn

[Borgster]

I guess I should chime in since I started this holy war. At this point, I have decided that the only things in paperspace will be the viewport, border and general drawing notes.

[BlackBox]

If I catch someone annotating in paper space in our office I delete the drawing and they will re-do it.

That's just @#$%ing funny... Model Space Nazi: "No [Paper Space] for you!"

I know this is a bit off topic, but IMO should be reiterated...over and over and over...do not duplicate!

Respectfully, who does that (duplicate dimensions)!?

This is a training issue... As Sun Tzu says (and I paraphrase):

"If the [instructions] are unclear, then it is the fault of the [CAD Manager], but if the [instructions] are clear, then it is the fault of the [CAD User]."

I guess I should chime in since I started this holy war. At this point, I have decided that the only things in paperspace will be the viewport, border and general drawing notes.

Beware, young padawan:

"A [CAD User's] strength flows from [annotating in Model Space]. But beware of [Paper Space]. Anger...fear...aggression. The [Paper Space] side of [annotation] are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a [submittal]. If once you start down the [Paper Space] path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."

[Misteracad]

... Model Space Nazi: "No [Paper Space] for you!"

That's CLASSIC!!! Thanks for making my day

Respectfully, who does that (duplicate dimensions)!?

This is a training issue...

I wholeheartedly agree that it is a training issue, but you'd be amazed at what I've seen. Both in the teaching world as well as the working world, users tend to over-dimension. It comes back to my tag line below..."Just because you can doesn't mean you should!!!"

I like to tell users what I learned very early in my career...MINIMUM ESSENTIAL DESIGN. Those words were imprinted at the top of the standard Title Block used by a very large company where I first worked after school. Every dwg that was produced, delivered, revised, etc. contained that statement for all to see, and it still holds true today IMO

[BlackBox]

It comes back to my tag line below..."Just because you can doesn't mean you should!!!"

I like to tell users what I learned very early in my career...MINIMUM ESSENTIAL DESIGN. Those words were imprinted at the top of the standard Title Block used by a very large company where I first worked after school. Every dwg that was produced, delivered, revised, etc. contained that statement for all to see, and it still holds true today IMO

Ironic, isn't it?

... That the words "Minimum Essential Design" were brought to fruition by duplicating that imprint "at the top of the standard Title Block [on] every dwg that was produced, delivered, revised, etc."

Thanks for making my day

No, no... it is you, Sir, that has made mine.

Cheers!

[jaberwok]

Without question... ALL annotations, dimensions, notes, text, etc. annotative and in Model Space.
If I catch someone annotating in paper space in our office I delete the drawing and they will re-do it.

In paper space only the title block & viewports are allowed

Just because it's right for you, in your company, in your industry, does NOT make it the only "right". Watch out if/when you change jobs - you might find that someone erases all your work.

[BeKirra]

I guess I should chime in since I started this holy war.

Holy war? It's a bit funny.

At this point, I have decided that the only things in paperspace will be the viewport, border and general drawing notes.

Finally you make a right decision.

Just because it's right for you, in your company, in your industry, does NOT make it the only "right". Watch out if/when you change jobs - you might find that someone erases all your work.

This would be a "war" really.
Let's keep the discussion in the right way, not a war.

One more question from the real world:
What if your colleague or someone else in other firm relocates the objects been dimensioned in P/S?
This kind of people would be your client, consultant, architect, structural engineer, or your CAD manager. You may loose you job if he/she is your manager or CAD manager, surely.

[cadtag]

Ironic, isn't it?

... That the words "Minimum Essential Design" were brought to fruition by duplicating that imprint "at the top of the standard Title Block [on] every dwg that was produced, delivered, revised, etc."

ah young kids, never had to work with an orange pre-printed border from K&E. Ordering the titleblock mylars with stock/standard info/disclaimers was the simplest and most efficient way to do it, just like puting c3d labels in modelspace is today. You really did not want the drafties whipping out the leroy set and adding that to every border, anymore than you wanted them drawing in the company logo freehand on every sheet.

One of the fun things was getting the old single-pen HI plotter to plot the drawings in that border, and fill out the title block info. A steady hand required.... and eternal optimism that the pen wouldn't run out of ink before the plot finished racheting back and forth.

One more question from the real world:
What if your colleague or someone else in other firm relocates the objects been dimensioned in P/S?
This kind of people would be your client, consultant, architect, structural engineer, or your CAD manager. You may loose you job if he/she is your manager or CAD manager, surely.

That's a fair question, and here's my take on a fair answer.

If someone in another firm edits a drawing that I'm responsible for, and that my principals are signing, they've overstepped the bounds of ethical behavior, and opening themselves up to a whole can of whupass called legal liability. Now, if they are using my drawing as a base, and for some bizarre reason decided that they wanted to duplicate a dimension that my organization is responsible for, they are taking a risk and assuming liability that they should not. Electrical designers do not dimension doors or windows, anymore than landscape architects calculate HVAC loads, and there are good reasons for it. See Misteracads' earlier post.

However, if a colleague in my organization relocates a previously drawn and dimensioned object, he would need a valid reason to do that. Regardless of whether the dimensions for that object are in model or paper space or a different dwg file, they need to be cleaned up/relocated/adjusted to match the new locations and relationships. Presuming his reason is valid, great. If his reason is invalid, then that's a different issue that needs to be resolved. After all , the 'whateveritis' is probably referenced into multiple sheets, and now all those sheets have to be reviewed either to accommodate the new location of the thing, or to ensure that it should or should not be displayed.

Regardless of whether he signs my paycheck, or I sign his, whether we're in the same office or three time zones apart, changing the design information and physical location of construction elements is a coordination issue, and dimensioning is the least of it.

[BeKirra]

If someone in another firm edits a drawing that I'm responsible for...

I have seen that people from other firms complains about this a lots of time when my colleague does this.

...
However, if a colleague in my organization relocates a previously drawn and dimensioned object, he would need a valid reason to do that...

Well, if you are just the drafter, your CAD manager/engineer does have the right/authority to modify your drawing without your consent.
If this is happen, you can easily guess what will be happen when you are back in next morning.

Back to the topic, and this is why we do need a drafting standard to allow people works smoothly and less confusion.

[BlackBox]

ah young kids, never had to work with an orange pre-printed border from K&E. Ordering the titleblock mylars with stock/standard info/disclaimers was the simplest and most efficient way to do it, just like puting c3d labels in modelspace is today. You really did not want the drafties whipping out the leroy set and adding that to every border, anymore than you wanted them drawing in the company logo freehand on every sheet.

One of the fun things was getting the old single-pen HI plotter to plot the drawings in that border, and fill out the title block info. A steady hand required.... and eternal optimism that the pen wouldn't run out of ink before the plot finished racheting back and forth.

That is funny; by comparison, I'm a youngin' in deed.

My earliest memories of formal drafting / modeling was working with NURBS Surfaces using Alias|Wavefront's Maya... *before* it was bought out by Autodesk in 2005. LoL