Detailing a multi building (campus) project

[MikeJarosz]

My little project is 1.6 million sqft over I think it's about 16 buildings that will be delivered in multiple bid/build packages.

Sounds like fast track. Make SURE everyone understands this, so that you aren't hit with change orders later. When you add work in multiple packages, you are not correcting deficiencies from the previous issue, but a lot of contractors see it that way.

Example: If you don't know what the exterior looks like yet, you might discover you need embeds long after the structure has gone out. Contractors love to get you into that situation! Revit can't help you there.

[david_peterson]

Sounds like fast track. Make SURE everyone understands this, so that you aren't hit with change orders later. When you add work in multiple packages, you are not correcting deficiencies from the previous issue, but a lot of contractors see it that way.

Example: If you don't know what the exterior looks like yet, you might discover you need embeds long after the structure has gone out. Contractors love to get you into that situation! Revit can't help you there.

You are correct, but the client knows that already.
It's one of those "We need it built yesterday, and we don't care about change orders or things that got missed". They know there's going to be additional work.
As for fast track, this is more like "going plaid" or "ludicrous speed". But they don't need the whole thing done ASAP. There's a large portion that will be sent out about 18mths from now. They need to get the some parts done in order to meet approvals and commissioning. As for embeds, it's a steel structure; they can weld what ever they want. A coordinating CM will also be on board before the other CM's hire GC's, so everyone is going to be on the same page. It's going to be very well understood that somethings will be missing and changing as the building goes thru the construction cycle. The majority is due to finish construction by the end of 2014 with the entire campus being done end of 2015. But on the upside, I've got job security until then.

[LP Design]

Revit can't help you there.

No, but one thing Revit CAN do is simplify drawing sets for bid packages. By saving sheet-sets and filtering sheet lists by a "bid package" parameter it becomes much easier to assemble each set of drawings. Better than combining sheets one-by-one using Adobe...

this is more like "going plaid" or "ludicrous speed".

+10,000 points. I lol'd.

[david_peterson]

The other thing that it allows me to do is to set objects to a particular "Phase" or "Package". This way I can use my view filter to screen anything that isn't a part of that package; no matter if it's existing or future. That's kind of key when it comes to bids. But the nice part is, since I'm doing it in revit, I'm going to have very little sympathy later on when one of my Archies or MEP consultants tells me "Hey that doesn't fit, can you move that", I can tell them "No, you should have thought about it or given me information prior to my package going out. I guess you'll have to figure it out now". How I love to see them squirm. If it don't fit, not my problem, steel is in place and concrete is cast.

[Duncan Lithgow]

The first package may be the foundation of say 3 of the buildings, but those are going to separate contractors on separate contracts, so I would issue 3 unique packages. Then about 6-8 weeks later we'll issue another foundation package for 3 more of the buildings and so on....... followed by the super structure packages and finally we have the balance (ie everything else)
And you mention you have 5yrs to draw it? I have to start putting out packages in 4 mths and I couldn't tell you where the exterior wall is yet.

Okay, interesting. Is that what they call fast track? When the rest of the building is not yet designed as the structure starts going up. Anyway, the big difference between what you describe and what I have is that we deliver all the drawings for two groups of buildings in July - you're splitting things up into different aspects of the project: foundations, sub-structure, façades etc (sorry if my terminology is wrong). So of course it makes no sense for you to have a central project with all details inside.

On the other hand I assume that your details for the sub-structure will often be the same across several buildings. Would there be a benefit in collecting those in a centralised project - if not why not?

[david_peterson]

Ok so I guess I need to explain myself a little better.
I will have one revit file that has 13 semi-connected (separated by expansion joints and fire-walls) and all the detail associated with them. That revit fill will contain somewhere around 20 different, unique sets of drawings - nothing from one drawing set will be used in another drawing set. While I'm sure I'll have many of the same details across several drawings sets, we set them up so each drawing set can stand by it's own. I hand the contractor 1 set of drawings for structural and everything he needs is there. So while I will have about 7 sheets of details that are going to be identical, (in my case) those sheets get copied to each drawing set. So yes, I may have 20 copies of the same sheet by the time I'm done. Along with those I'll have 20-30 more detail sheets per drawing set that will have very similar details, but not exact due to order of construction. So I may have the exact same detail for 3 different conditions/phases. One that should show the the foundation wall for package 1 solid and the columns for package 2 and 3 screened (screened because they are not in that GC's contract). That same detail would show up in package 2. In package 2 that detail would show the foundation wall from package 1 screened (it's existing and not in that GC's contract) and it would show the steel column from package 2 as solid/bold line work and the steel column from the adjacent building (which is in package 3) as screened (again because it's not in that GC's contract. Package 3 would show that same detail with the foundation wall from package 1 and steel column from package 2 screened (again, existing and not in that GC's contract) and the steel column for package 3 as solid/bold linework. This isn't idea, but it's what needs to be done. I may end up with that same detail in a 4th contract where the slab on grade is the only thing in that contract. So that's where my nightmare is.
While the details are the same, I don't want to give a contractor a detail he isn't supposed to use or doesn't exist in that contract. Also the other thing I run into is while Package 1 is in construction, Package 2 is in Bid, and Package 3 is being finished. So if I was using common details, I'd have to issue 3 changes anyway. 1 Construction Bulletin for Package 1, an Addenda for Package 2 and Package 3 would just be changed in the revit file. Also you may run into that point in time where you can't change what's been issued for package 2 (because it's being reviewed or it's the last day of a bid) and you need to issue something to the contractor working on package 1 while the concrete truck is standing by. So while it may make your life easier to have a "combined detail set" for CD's when it comes time to actually build it you may want to pull your hair out.
By doing a project with the approach I'm using, you end up doing more work up front, it might help ease the confusion in the end by not having them combined. Our archies on another project had a section for an egress stair that they were using for 6 stairs in 3 different buildings. 2 of the stairs fit, the others didn't. Why, because they didn't want to create unique sections for each one.
It's a 2 way street. You can make the case for doing it with a combined set and you can make the case for the individual set.
My detailing approach will be to use mostly 2d details so I can copy them easily with the "Duplicate with Detailing" tool. So once I get my detail done and it's been back checked, the odds of it changing are slim. And once it's been issued with the first package that goes from slim to none. Then I can copy to the next package and so on. So while I'm going to have some what duplicate details, I'm not going to have to do twice the work.
Hope this make some better sense.

[Duncan Lithgow]

Thanks David - that did explain a few things. I can very clearly see that this is all about how the project is organised generally rather than what I think might be optimal use of Revit. I will pass some of your comments on to the people with the most insight into what details they'll need and how many of them can reasonably be shared. Remember we have no phases - the whole documentation set goes out once to just three main contractors, and gets build form earth works to door handles from that documentation set. (As an aside it's amusing to note that our project head says we are delivering a 'complete and error-free project' - despite the fact that most of the team have never done another project in Revit - sigh!)

I just need to check this point: you are doing all details in a separate project file which has the buildings linked in? You are then organising them according to building. So despite the fact that each details set is building specific you still see an advantage in doing them all in one project file? That sounds very close to what I'm planning and Scott was saying I shouldn't do. Collecting them in one project file is where I'm meeting some resistance from the office - so I need to understand the pros and cons.

And how do you deal with placing Callouts correctly out in each building model?

[david_peterson]

You're close and in your case if it were me, I'd hand over the complete set and let the Construction Manager (CM) figure out what belongs to what.
In my case (and this may change in the future), I'm doing all 1mil sqft in one model. All elements, details, plans, sections, elevations..... in one big revit file, NOT linked. That's how I'm getting around detail call-outs. So I don't need to worry about call-outs, they are unique to each deliverable (drawing set). So my sheets will have a building number, phase number and sheet number; that's the info that I'll be using to organize it. But in a sense I'm doing about 20 different projects in one. No separate models. I've picked a good place to cut off the other 600,000 sqft into a different revit file. So the majority of the work will be done in one model.

[MikeJarosz]

I hope you have a team working with you! 1 mil+ SF is a lot of building.

When we did the World Trade Center in Revit 6.0, we had about 10 on the Revit team (if you don't count Phil Read, Matt Jezyk et. al.).

[kmarquis]

Can't you just have a host file where all the models are linked in and do all your annotations and details in that file? I suppose you wouldn't have as much control with graphics but it seems more straight forward. I think about this topic all the time and how I would set up the files. I wish Autodesk gave you the capability to show callouts and section tags from linked files. That would solve a lot of problems. Then the Interior model team can do their details in their file and the exterior team can do their own details as well and bring them together for a complete set.

One idea I had which purist might be against is to do standard details that you don't want changed in Autocad and linked in from a common file location. I guess then you might have some inconsistency with graphics.