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Thread: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

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    Active Member nelson's Avatar
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    Default Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    For the last several years we have experimented with different ways to share the Civil 3D Parts Catalog across our offices. At one point we had everyone pointed back to the main office for the cad support files. While this worked great to keep everyone in sync, the performance of their cad systems took a dive. We use Steelhead appliances on all ends and thought that the cache would work but it didn't do a good enough job at this. So back to separate drives again.

    Currently we have all offices using a local network drive (S:\CAD\....) to host CAD support files and daily we have a script comparing file dates to the Mother Ship. This is working great for normal AutoCAD type items, but I ran into a problem with Civil 3d's Part Catalog. I have to manually mount the regional office drive and refresh the parts in order for them to use the catalog again. So modified files have to be manually moved and refreshed by mounting those drives.

    I don't see much on the blogs or help files about managing the C3D's Parts Catalog. I can't be the only one having this problem, am I?

    Does anyone know what file is being created that somehow is tying the Parts Catalog to the url address of the dfs share instead of a simple drive letter and folders? XML? Perhaps just a simple update of this file through scripting would solve the problem.

    Looking forward to your ideas and comments on how you approached this problem.

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    Administrator BlackBox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    This is a topic of great interest to me, as we too are experiencing some difficulties with the Civil 3D Pipes (more accurately Parts) Catalog (PC).

    There are several flaws with Civil 3D's PC, but to your question of how to synchronize the PC's across multiple offices, if your IT group does not already have a better option for you, I would think a simple XCOPY would suffice, pseudo code:

    Code:
    XCOPY "\\ServerName1\ShareName1\CAD\*.*" "\\ServerName2\ShareName2\CAD" /D /E /H /R /Y
    You can work with your IT group to add a simple batch process to run each night at midnight (or whenever is ideal for your company), so that once the initial replication is pushed, only updated files are copied which should keep the network traffic to a minimum. Just be sure to pay attention for when you're removing data, that this same data is removed in the replicated locations.

    As one of multiple laptop users myself, we're also experimenting with Offline Files.

    [vent]

    Separately, what’s missing from Civil 3D is a useable Civil Pipe Infrastructure aspect, something which nearly every Civil engineering project incorporates.

    Were we to have a robust catalog of pipes, and structures, they would be used for every project, however the difficulty at present is how to acquire such a catalog?

    The Civil 3D part builder is inadequate for our needs, and there is no built-in option to merge, or transfer parts between two catalogs.

    Instead, the user must know which drawings, and XML files needs to be copied to and from where (within the pipes catalogs), and then must know exactly which chapters to edit within the .APC (read .XML) file. Not to mention verifying that the .NET rules are fully functional, and if not to decompile, modify, and recompile the .NET rules.

    I’ve already conceptualized, and started coding a .NET application to host a Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF, XAML) User Control within an AutoCAD Tool Palette, which employs an Abstract Factory Pattern, allowing me to extract, or write the applicable XML section and entries between two .APC files… a sort of pseudo Parts Catalog Editor, similar to the CUI Editor’s Transfer Tab, with the ability to Edit the Chapter names, etc..

    As a workaround for the inadequate PC, and built-in parametric modeling functionality included with C3D, we're doing our buried utilities with AMEP, and XREFs. Cumbersome, but easier for the moment.

    [/vent]

    Not exactly helpful to you, I know, but you're not alone!
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    Active Member nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    We are using a simple XCOPY to sync the drives, but the problem is that the PC stores the location of the DFS somewhere internally in the *.apc or *.xml and then the new location files are 'out of date' and are not visible until the PC is refreshed using the new location. I don't know where that change is being held because I don't see it in the files. That's what I'm hoping you all can help me figure out. From what I can see the only one is the *.htm file pulling the URL for the catalog location.

    Sounds like you are going way past just keeping the files in sync, I'm not devoting that much of my time to correct the mistakes by Autodesk. Chances are they'll change it in the next two release cycles anyways. Hopefully they plan on converting the PC into something more along the lines of the pressure pipes, but again I haven't put much effort into that yet so don't know how bad that might be.

    I DO NOT allow users to go into the PC to make the edits. If they insist on making the changes themselves, I will officially make them the new holder of the catalog. I know no one would want to hold that title.

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    Administrator BlackBox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    We are using a simple XCOPY to sync the drives, but the problem is that the PC stores the location of the DFS somewhere internally in the *.apc or *.xml and then the new location files are 'out of date' and are not visible until the PC is refreshed using the new location. I don't know where that change is being held because I don't see it in the files. That's what I'm hoping you all can help me figure out. From what I can see the only one is the *.htm file pulling the URL for the catalog location.
    If you're storing the PC on the network, then that means (at minimum) you've copied the PC installed OOTB:

    Code:
    C:\ProgramData\Autodesk\C3D 20##\enu\Pipes Catalog
    ... To a network location, and subsequently used _AeccSetNetworkCatalog to specify the new location on the network. Did you have any problems with the resultant PC? Using XCOPY, provided the permissions are the same at the destination location, should not in any way change this functionality as I understand it.

    I must be overlooking something; if the source and destination directory structures (drive letter, etc.) are the same, there shouldn't be any issues, given that the files uses relative paths AFAIK.

    For example, from "US Imperial Pipes.htm" :

    Code:
    // ********************** BEGIN CATALOG CONFIG **************************************************************
    // To configure your catalog, edit the following 2 vars
    //
    var strCatalog                = "US Imperial Pipes.apc"
    var strCatalogDomain    = "Pipe_Domain"                    
    //
    // *********************** END CATALOG CONFIG ***************************************************************
    Perhaps this thread will help to clarify, since you specifically mention DFS:

    http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/AutoCA...1/td-p/3458248

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Sounds like you are going way past just keeping the files in sync, I'm not devoting that much of my time to correct the mistakes by Autodesk. Chances are they'll change it in the next two release cycles anyways.
    I'm trying to, yes; success of my effort is yet to be seen however. LoL

    This is not an internal effort, I actually started working with Autodesk Feedback following the 'Jaws' Beta. Following a long conference call with their development, and project management team, this concept was passed up the chain. They seemed interested in the idea; enough that, at Autodesk's request, we may be hosting a small Autodesk team at my office shortly as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I DO NOT allow users to go into the PC to make the edits. If they insist on making the changes themselves, I will officially make them the new holder of the catalog. I know no one would want to hold that title.
    I'm the only one modifying the PC that resides on the network, but I tend to encourage customization more than some others.

    Often times, I find others' ideas to be enlightening, and ultimately this encouragement leads to a better, more cohesive team, than those which do not. I find that users are more likely to adhere to a standard that they feel some level of ownership for, rather than something forced upon them. Just my limited experience.
    "How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

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    Active Member nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    Quote Originally Posted by RenderMan View Post
    ...if the source and destination directory structures (drive letter, etc.) are the same, there shouldn't be any issues, given that the files uses relative paths
    I have read the DFS disclaimer before, and this isn't a file access issue, but more of a file location issue. We haven't had any problems with DFS except where programs look at the UNC location for files. (Revit)

    The drives in all offices are the same drive letter, so the PC can't be using just relative paths, the only difference is the physical server location. Something the in Part Catalog is storing the UNC location of the files? The other thought I had is the Part Catalog creates a unique name for a parts in the AeccuiGuidList.txt file (ex. 30921980-2D9B-493A-88C5-6D10AEA8B835;AeccCircularConcretePipe_Imperial). Could that process of creating the UID be causing this problem?

    I do agree with your comment
    Quote Originally Posted by RenderMan View Post
    I'm the only one modifying the PC that resides on the network, but I tend to encourage customization
    But when all people want is "MAKE IT WORK" I can't have users playing or testing with Part Builder. I'm sure if there was more documentation and training on this subject users would like to play around in there. But for the majority of users, they just want a functional part that displays and labels correctly. I for one welcome any advancement to the Part Builder, or perhaps a revamp of the thought process behind it. Parametric Modeling is great when it works. Now to just make the whole process simpler.

    I wish you the best in what your trying to do. Perhaps you can find and address the DFS\UNC\Relative Path issue?

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    Administrator BlackBox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    This is one of the reasons we started using AutoCAD MEP as a workaround, given that it not only has a much more robust PC OOTB, but even the part modeling functionality is superior to that of C3D.

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post

    I wish you the best in what your trying to do. Perhaps you can find and address the DFS\UNC\Relative Path issue?
    That is kind of you to say, but I must confess... I thought what I was attempting was (far?) above my pay grade! LoL

    More testing is needed (at least for me) to develop a better understanding of the internal workings of the Part Builder (which I believe generates the unique part names, etc.), and how that all gets tied into the PC's APC, XML, etc..

    I have copied a modified PC between servers to another group, without these issues, but that may simply be that they're not using it as it was originally intended for testing purposes (not released for production). Perhaps I do not have the understanding of sharing PC's that I thought I did.
    "How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    FWIW -

    From the AutoCAD Civil 3D Best Practices Guide:

    Quote Originally Posted by AutoCAD Civil 3D Best Practices Guide
    Quote Originally Posted by Pipe Networks, How the Parts Catalog Works

    Multi-User Environment

    In a multi-user work environment with multiple parts catalogs, it is easy to create unwanted changes in drawings if your parts catalogs do not have consistent contents and standard locations. Unwanted changes can occur because each drawing references the parts catalog at the location specified on the computer on which it was created. If the drawing is opened on a different computer, where it cannot find a catalog at the same location, it points to the default location, or whatever is defined on the second computer.

    Unwanted changes can occur to parts in the drawing if the following conditions are met:

    • The user of the second computer edits the pipe network with an operation that references the parts catalog.
    • The referenced part has specifications in the current catalog that differ from those in the original catalog.


    Under these conditions, the part specifications from the current catalog are applied to the part in the drawing.

    Operations that reference the catalog—and can introduce unwanted changes—include adding a part to the network or moving a part. Other operations, such as editing a label, do not reference the catalog.
    Quote Originally Posted by How the Parts Catalog Works, Parts Catalog Management Practices


    Parts Catalog Management Practices

    To prevent errors in multi-user environments, use the following practices for managing pipe network part catalogs:

    • When changes to a parts catalog are expected, designate a single person (the ‘catalog manager’) to be responsible for changing and maintaining the master parts catalog.
    • When the master catalog changes, the catalog manager distributes the updated catalog to all users or offices.
    • Users send all new or modified parts to the catalog manager for addition to the master catalog. Among the team, agree on a standard process for doing this. For example, users could send to the catalog manager an entire catalog folder, or just the affected files (DWG, XML, and BMP) for a single part.
    • If all users store their parts catalogs locally on their computers, the catalogs should be in the same location, preferably the default C: drive path used by AutoCAD Civil 3D.
    • If a number of users are on the same network, a single pipes catalog can be stored in a central network location. In this case, it is important for users to avoid changing the shared catalog, as they could interfere with the work of other users. Instead, the catalog manager should be responsible for making all changes and notifying the users.
    • When a new or modified part is required, always use Part Builder to make the edits. Manual edits to an .xml file can produce unwanted results.
    • When modifying a default part, save it with a new name so that it can be easily distinguished from the original part.
    • When sharing a drawing with another user, prevent unwanted part changes by setting the pipe network catalog to the same location, such as a shared network drive, or the default C: drive. If two separate catalogs are involved, verify that their contents are identical.
    • AutoCAD Civil 3D uses the US Imperial Pipe Catalog and US Imperial Structure Catalog, by default. When creating a pipe network, if you are working with metric drawings, change the Pipe Catalog to metric. Click Home tab Create Design panel Set Pipe Network Catalog. In the Pipe Network Catalog Settings dialog box, select US Metric Pipes and US Metric Structures for the Pipe Catalog and Structure Catalog fields, respectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by How the Parts Catalog Works, Problematic Scenarios, Parts Catalogs on Different Networks

    Parts Catalogs on Different Networks


    1. User A is using AutoCAD Civil 3D with the pipe network catalog path set to a network location, such as N:\Autodesk\Civil3D <version>\Pipes Catalog\.
    2. User A creates a new part and uses the part in Drawing 1.
    3. User B, in another office, edits Drawing 1 on his computer, which has the pipe network catalog path set to a different network location, such as J:\Autodesk\Civil\Pipes Catalog\. Drawing 1 searches for the pipes catalog on the N: drive but does not find it. Therefore, AutoCAD Civil 3D substitutes the most similar part from the catalog on the J: drive and uses it instead.


    Solution:
    User A sends the new part to the catalog manager, who distributes it to User B and others to maintain consistent catalogs. Users of networked catalogs in different offices should agree to use the same drive letter and path for their parts catalogs. If this is done, drawings can be shared reliably and it is easier to maintain standard catalogs.
    "How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

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    Active Member nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    Thanks for that reminder. This is the way that I have setup the sharing of the PC. Each office using the same drive letter (S:\CAD\...) and file structure. It's just that the PC is not using a relative path as expected and is grabbing the unc path of the server name location. When an update is needed I transfer the files to the regional offices, but then have to mount that office's drive as my own and refresh the catalog in order for that office to see the changes or work with the PC.

    While this is all doable, it's just a pain and is a bit misleading when the pc is pointed to a drive letter. Took me a while to figure out when the regional office were loosing the PC every night the sync happened.
    Last edited by nelson; 2012-06-28 at 06:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    Autodesk has a ways to go still on the PC in general; usability issues like this, need to be first on the list.
    "How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

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    Active Member nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sharing Civil 3D Part Catalogs across WAN Environment

    Just a follow up on this. Came across this thread again in a search for more information on sharing content.

    Initially I wanted to point to central network location, but this causes issues with C3D when not connected with a VPN or other network disconnects (constant blinking cursor). We are now hosting support files on each computer but not the \enu location like the install sets up. I can point the catalog there, but until recently I thought the rules were pointed there also. I found a variable in the Registry that points C3D for pipe rules (AECCCONTENT_DIR). Up until now I thought that we all were getting rules from the network location, but I stand corrected. Going to try this now to see if this takes care of our Rules not found error in drawings.

    Check back in another year or two.

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