Site Tools

[Steve Cashman]

I just want to place my vote for how important this is to our firm. A building and site are designed together. I need intuitive site design tools that allow me to design and communicate what I want to our civil engineers. I can't even remember how long ago I posted site tool wish list items, but it's disappointing that Revit has not progressed in that area.

Please, Autodesk, invest in the site tools and bring them up to the quality of the remainder of the program. BIM does not end at the exterior face of the building.

Falling Water would have been very difficult for FLW to design properly with Revit's site tools. He could have created an exciting BIM of the house's design, but he would have needed a work-around or many frustrating days to create the house on the site.

[Chad Smith]

Two very valid points - Autodesk READ.

A building and site are designed together.

I would even extend this to read; "A building which includes it's STRUCTURE, MEP and site are designed together." This is not a sequential process of Design -> Structure -> MEP.

I agree we shouldn't have tools to do major civil work, but much like structural and mechanical, an architect needs to be able to place a glulam beam with chamfered ends, and exposed HVAC ducts, as "design intent", then have the Structural and MEP professionals correctly size and detail.

This is what I have been telling Autodesk since this split-program mess started.
We need the ability to account for things like ducts and curved beams at the initial design phase, whether they be right or wrong, and then pass them to the engineers to add, remove or correct. Autodesk just don't get it.

I too hope we will see some improvements to the Site tools in the next release.

[clog boy]

I expect Revit to HELP me design great stuff, even if great stuff remains a small percentage of what actually gets built. Then again, if great stuff was easier, it might also be less rare. How cool would that be?

Gordon

That's the whole point.
You see people do incredible things with Photoshop. That program has great potential. It should be the same with Revit. Revit has very great potential too, but has only been around this century. I think the toolbox is expanded and enhanced at the customer's request, but Autodesk is only putting an effort into it (I think) if it benefits 8.000 out of 10.000 customers.
So it's only a matter of time for each sensible company (like Autodesk) to adapt to the market, if they want to survive. Many architectural companies put everything at stake to adapt to this whole new way of thinking, so it's only fair to expect the same in return.

I hate to mention Allplan in relation to this argument, but that program contains a thousand seperate tools and toolbars. 90% of the program has initially been written at a specific customer's request, and all those little chunks and bits have been developed to become a complete and intuitive program. Then again, Alplan has been around for about as long or longer than AutoCAD.

[comhasse]

Hi everybody,

I just went to a presentation of "Elitecad" yesterday, a Swiss BIM solution marketed only in Europe that's been around for about as long as Revit. From what i understand they have a user base of about 5'000 installed seats. I can't really compare it with Revit just from the presentation but some things look really sweet.

The site module seems to be pretty much what we're looking for here. Site's are entered similar to Revits' but then you get splinebased contours that you can manipulate at will. Slopes, roads, excavation are naturally included. Check out the link: http://www.elitecad.co.uk/produkte/a...endemodul2.php.

The pricing for the basic package plus the site module is about the same as Revit. I think this is definitely something for the Autodesk people to look at!

[BillyGrey]

Hi everybody,

I can't really compare it with Revit just from the presentation but some things look really sweet.
*snip*
The pricing for the basic package plus the site module is about the same as Revit. I think this is definitely something for the Autodesk people to look at!

Thank You Michael!

You are correct, that program looks really sweet, and appears on the surface to embrace nearly everything that many of us ol'timey Revit pragmatists have been wishing upon for years.

Wow, nurbs, advanced modeling capabilities, site tools, quantity computations, a real rendering engine, framing plans, good grief, I can hardly wait until my demo arrives!!!

Point is, it is only a matter of time before more of these types of packages start hitting the market. Autodesk best start making sure they are ahead of the curve when this happens in earnest. In the mean time, if 1/2 of what this other package promises is true, then Revit may already be in second place.

What a great time to be involved :^ )

[clog boy]

I also attended an EliteCAD presentation while working at an inhouse service desk for a big architect bureau. EliteCAD works closely with it's customers to develop the product, it actually has more programmers than sales representatives.
The drawback is that they only work on your wishlist if you're a paying customer, they don't make changes just to get you to buy the program. But at least they do have some kind of personal wishlist processing.

You're right Billy, Autodesk better be on the tip of their toes if they want to stay in lead. It's too late for us to change now but one year from now, it might've been a tie.

[zenomail105021]

Who ever heard of good architecture ignoring the site and environment in which it is placed! Is there a possibility that the Revit people already acknowledge that as other players enter this BIM game that they will inevitably be behind the curve? This BIM thing lends itself to creative insight and programming in the creative nature of the architecture it reflects and a big staid organization like Autodesk trying to be everthing just cannot be in that game; don't care how much money they have. I mean, just look at the Revit UI and the byzantine clicks and picks as a reflection of the mindset of the people who keep churning it out. Acknowledging their inability or unwillingness to keep up, maybe they plan to tread water just to keep whatever profit center they can maintain with the least cost. (Reasonable business decision but Caveat Emptor) Their actions might support this supposition considering the grudging and in many ways sloppy and patchwork like improvements that are finally made (of course, all this might be because the fundamental program won't allow for any other strategy which still leaves us users in the same boat). I would never go back to ADT, BIM is for me, but geez this is pretty late in the game for no real site tools. There's a market here and I'll predict in the next 5 years some boutique companies (that's plural), like EliteCAD maybe, come in and blow Revit right out of the water. Is the handwriting on the wall. I don't know. But, I do acknowledge that right now, today, Revit is probably the best choice at least for me. Revit really needs some serious competition and I hope it gets it for its own good and mine. Hey, Revit is a good program but it needs to move on ..... fast!

Bill Maddox
Maddox Builders, Inc.

[twiceroadsfool]

It might just be me... But heres a thought-

There are actually a few posts in this entire thread that dictate what kind of different site tools are needed, and HOW WE'D WANT THEM TO WORK. LITERALLY. DO you want to push/pull terrain? Have it automatically demo once you mark the site "existing" and then modify it? (Id like to see models work that way in general...

Imagine this: You build the model, and at a certain point, mark it "Point Existing." So now, instead of demoing, you just click a wall and hit delete, and it KNOWS you mean demo, lol. It would be a PITA when you actually meant delete, but oh well...)

Anyway, this thread is 8 pages long now, and ive only seen a handful of posts on what we actually want the tools to be. Maybe if we all got on board, and talked about what we'd actually like to see (like that 3d sketchup looking labs video on youtube), wed get farther than 7 pages of critcism aimed at a company that develops our tool? Just a thought.

[cdatechguy]

Being this is a Revit Wishlist, I don't know how many people have used Civil 3D. Civ3D has a road creation features where you can create your curbs, sidewalks and lanes as modules instead of drawing the 2D line equivalent as in the LDD/Civl Desktop days. It would be nice if Revit has something similiar to this instead of the use of profiles and sweeps which reminds me of the old LDD/Civil method.

[zenomail105021]

Must we always lead the Factory by the hand? Do we have to tell them everthing? Can't they figure most of it out themselves? Users can offer fine tuning maybe. They have to take the initiative. Part of the problem with big, big companies is they begin to lose their creativity and imagination and interest. I really think this is what is happening. Can't they look around, do a little research maybe, find out what's out there, what's best, most efficient and user friendly, perhaps even break a little sweat trying to do a good honest job, and JUST DO IT! If they can't figure it out themselves (and it ain't that hard!) then plagarize, anything, but get us some site tools that are worth having. Sorry, I guess I sound a little hard, but what can you do. Markets pretty dead here so guess I'm not busy enough. But, I really would like some decent site tools.

Bill Maddox
Maddox Builders, Inc.