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Thread: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

  1. #11
    100 Club StDoodle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Munford View Post
    @StDoodle

    So would you say that you want to feel confident that the drawings you are reviewing have already been coordinated and verified before you receive them (or at least have it noted when a site survey is still to be carried out).
    My dread is the infamous "verify in field." It never says who should verify, and as a manufacturer, that's never supposed to be us. Honestly, a good 30% of my markup review headaches would probably be gone if, every time such a note was added, it said who is responsible and had an indication of when they planned to do so (or were required to). That would give me a much better idea of whether or not it should be examined further at this time (if markups indicate we'll only get such field-verification a week before ship date, effort needs to be made to supply a product that could be field-cut to work in a variety of conditions; if this isn't possible, it'd be nice to know so we can push for more information or find a different way to deal with things).

    Also, I've seen, in he past five years, maybe two sets of markup drawings where it was immediately obvious which level / company had done them. If everyone could either initial their notes, use a distinct color scheme, whatever, that would greatly simplify many things.
    2012-02-24: Finally got around to installing my home copy of AutoCAD... no longer relying on my horrible memory for "how-to" advice!

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    Certified AUGI Addict jaberwok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by StDoodle View Post
    My dread is the infamous "verify in field." It never says who should verify, and as a manufacturer, that's never supposed to be us. Honestly, a good 30% of my markup review headaches would probably be gone if, every time such a note was added, it said who is responsible and had an indication of when they planned to do so (or were required to). That would give me a much better idea of whether or not it should be examined further at this time (if markups indicate we'll only get such field-verification a week before ship date, effort needs to be made to supply a product that could be field-cut to work in a variety of conditions; if this isn't possible, it'd be nice to know so we can push for more information or find a different way to deal with things).

    Also, I've seen, in he past five years, maybe two sets of markup drawings where it was immediately obvious which level / company had done them. If everyone could either initial their notes, use a distinct color scheme, whatever, that would greatly simplify many things.
    Ah, the infamous "Cut to fit on site and weld" -type note.
    John B

    "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    As CAD Admin, I dread:
    - sets of XREF'd drawings that are delivered in a single folder (yes, we understand how XREFs work and so should you...)
    - files that have logos/other items as raster images (and none are provided)
    - fonts were used by a third party, and the providing company has no idea where they came from
    - rogue data such as AutoPLANT (one of the worst offenders, nearly impossible to remove) or AEC (kind of resigned to that stuff)
    - multiple title blocks on frozen layers (especially when the drawing is going to be automatically processed)
    - dozens of drawings in a single file, or 30 foot long continuous "roll" drawings
    - other engineering companies who refuse to turn over design information to the client for us to use, forcing us to do all the work *again*.

    Like the others, I do like:
    - good layer structure
    - properties BYLAYER (!!!)
    - following client standards where published
    - using appropriate content e.g. using Excel for spreadsheets and Word for text documents

    In terms of content, I expect a few errors and ommissions - humans are involved and chances are something else will need to be added anyways. But I don't expect it to be more than ~10%. Even with a large number of changes after two cycles (original check, corrections + additions) at 10% there should be no errors in finished product while not wasting excessive time on checking.
    If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.
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    100 Club Paul Munford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Thanks very much for your responses!

    My dread is the infamous "verify in field." It never says who should verify
    @StDoodle
    Very good point. I think that we can all be a little tentative of making commitments on drawings, or asking for an action to take place. I know that this sort of information should be recorded in meeting notes - but who ever reads them!

    Just to let you know - I will be compiling your advice into a blog post, which you can see here:
    http://cadsetterout.com/personal-pos...view-drawings/

    Do you have a particular process for marking up submittal sets of shop drawings? How do you prefer to deliver your comments BACK to the contractor/subcontractor/supplier?

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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Munford View Post
    I know that this sort of information should be recorded in meeting notes - but who ever reads them!
    Part of the reason is that you need to have access to such things in order to read them; I've seen such made available for maybe two projects in the six or so years I've been in this specific field (cast stone shop drawings).
    2012-02-24: Finally got around to installing my home copy of AutoCAD... no longer relying on my horrible memory for "how-to" advice!

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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    The first thing I look at is if the drawing is visually balanced, white space sort of evenly spread around. Then I look at readability, with AutoCAD, Inventor, etc it is real easy for the drafter to put too much information on a single view, it'll look fine zoomed in but once it's printed out it's just a mess. Then I check completeness of information, are all the needed dims on there. Then I check accuracy in Inventor etc this is more an issue of making sure somebody didn't dimension to the wrong thing. For AutoCAD that's pretty much it.

    For Inventor I will then go an check the model to see if good practices have been followed; is it constrained, is it built to tru size or did they round to 2 decimels, did they use th hole command of extrude, did they pattern holes, are there a bunch of unfolf/fold commands, etc.

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    Super Moderator CAtDiva's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by StDoodle View Post
    My dread is the infamous "verify in field." It never says who should verify, and as a manufacturer, that's never supposed to be us. Honestly, a good 30% of my markup review headaches would probably be gone if, every time such a note was added, it said who is responsible and had an indication of when they planned to do so (or were required to). That would give me a much better idea of whether or not it should be examined further at this time (if markups indicate we'll only get such field-verification a week before ship date, effort needs to be made to supply a product that could be field-cut to work in a variety of conditions; if this isn't possible, it'd be nice to know so we can push for more information or find a different way to deal with things).

    Also, I've seen, in he past five years, maybe two sets of markup drawings where it was immediately obvious which level / company had done them. If everyone could either initial their notes, use a distinct color scheme, whatever, that would greatly simplify many things.
    When something needs to be verified in the field, it is the responsibility of field personnel to make that verification. As the architect, our responsibility is generally limited to design intent - we are not responsible for going out onto the jobsite to physically (particularly as our clients often don't want to pay for CA services in the first place). I agree that it's also not necessarily the manufacturer's responsibility (unless they are also the installing subcontractor). So the GC needs to make sure the verification is done - whether they delegate that on to someone else is out of the architect/engineer's hands.

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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    I think one of my biggest pet peeves is getting shop drawings that are based on a Design Development (65-70%) complete set. We're glad to provide them to contractor's for estimating purposes, but they are still draft drawings and often things change during that last stage of Construction Document development. I am often tempted (I think I might have actually done it once or twice) to simply return a set of shop drawings with only the note: "revise to coordinate with documents issued for construction".

    I have a friend that does woodwork shop drawings and he happened to be contracted for one of my projects. I got to see his first round of drawings and observed that he was working off the RFP drawings, not even our 65% set, much less ". The next round were marginally better, but the manufacturer had instructed him to do certain things according to their typical practices rather than the details or specifications we included. As this was a government project, they had to revise the shop drawings again to comply with the government requirements (on which we based our details & specs). His contract was hourly (or at least per round of revisions), so he got paid for each of those revisions. Mostly I learned to appreciate that the folks on the drawing end aren't always passed the information they need to comply with the construction documents.

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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAtDiva View Post
    Mostly I learned to appreciate that the folks on the drawing end aren't always passed the information they need to comply with the construction documents.
    I find that a lot on my end as well. I reject as-built submissions because they don't comply, then the CAD manager or lead monkey calls me up all ticked off, and then we come to the conclusion that their project management team never passed along the standards and specifications (includes material and performance expectations we have to have here, but, also electronic doc requirements) that came with the contract they signed.

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    Default Re: Do you review drawings? what does a good set of drawings look like to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAtDiva View Post
    When something needs to be verified in the field...
    To be clear, I'm not complaining that the "verify" note gets added; I'm complaining that no-one in the chain between my office and the architect's office takes care of it as they should.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAtDiva View Post
    I think one of my biggest pet peeves is getting shop drawings that are based on a Design Development (65-70%) complete set.
    Here's the problem -- and this ties into the above as well. I'm not supposed to go over anyone's head. I deal with our client, the masonry contractor (occasionally, this is also the gc, but not often). I'm only supposed to talk to anyone further up the chain if they either contact me directly, or I'm directed to by our client. Our reference drawings are passed to us from the client, unless they're available online (and on one of a few standard sites that we know about; it doesn't help to have drawings online if we never know they are and where). I'm happy to get most of the sheets I need, and ecstatic if they've been printed to scale. Getting even pdf's is often a pipe dream. It shouldn't be this way, but sadly, it is.

    Honestly, if the culture of "you don't need that, those aren't yours" could be overcome, I think the average project cost would drop noticeably; how much work is re-done by all of the various subs because they aren't given access to even pdf's, let alone CAD?

    To tie back into the OP's post, one great thing architects could get into the habit of would be to always post electronic versions of their drawings online, and to always give the url to said drawings as part of their markup / review of subcontractor drawings.
    2012-02-24: Finally got around to installing my home copy of AutoCAD... no longer relying on my horrible memory for "how-to" advice!

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