Assoc. drafting degree?

[robert.1.hall72202]

A probationary period? Are your refering to putting someone on trial for a few weeks?
It is easy to see why alot of designers get hired in off contract positions.

[glee.94356]

It's actually quite common. Sometimes somebody you feel was a good fit during a lengthy interview process comes in and either does not perform or rubs everybody the wrong way.
Everyone gives a good show during an interview, it's just part of the process. So having a new hire be on probation for a certain amount of time, let's both the firm and the newbie get a feel for each other. Sometimes either party finds it's not working out and walks. Sometimes it's a great fit from the start. Firms like this process because the newbie may not be on the benefits plan until after the probationary period. It allows either party to walk away with no hard feelings. Well sort of. No bonds are formed. Sometimes the newbie finds that once they start working and are pigeonholed doing handrail details, it's not their cup of tea. Not quite the design role they thought they were getting. So they walk. No extra paperwork needed.
Hiring temps on contract has been around for awhile. Most of the time, the intention is not to hire but to fill a position needed because of a new project or tight deadline. The idea is to get the job done. Occassionaly a temp/ contract hire perfroms above and beyond expectations and the firm realises that it would be a mistake to let them go. Normally temps/ contract hires are not the same as a full timer hired but still on probation. Some firms forgo a probation period and the new hire has full benefits from the get go. Some firms may not have a probation period but instill one because the new hire is an unknown factor. Looks good on paper but something about the person is not quite right, so they wait and see.
All common practice. More so in small or medium size firms where it's important for everyone to get along to a certain extent.

[mlayport]

OK ...This is my first post, my background is 6yr.s formal education (4yr.s H.S.with 2 yr.s A.A. degree in Mech. Drafting) and post training in process piping, ACAD, & 3D pipe drafting. Basically you’re looking at 30 yr.s "Theoretically" I should know what I'm talking about. You'll get to judge on this.
I fine myself on the fence here! "IF" someone comes out of school with an AA in drafting and doesn't have a good handle on AutoCAD wouldn't scare me too much! I would guess he/she would know how individual drawings are put together, how they relate to one another, and what objects lines, dimension lines, hidden line are and how they are properly represented! And what puts me on the fence is people are coming out of trade schools or a few courses at local Jr. colleges with AutoCAD under their belts and think they can perform effectively as a draftsman! These are the "money-see, monkey-do" draftsmen. These are the people the engineers go to with markups to be laid out into a drawing. Problem is engineers aren't draftsmen either! ...OR are they suppose to be! They normally get ONE semester of drafting, so they can "read" a drawing. Kind of like knowing how to drive a car and be expected to re-build the engine! This problem seems to be the standard, at least form my end ...other disciplines too, I'll bet! You could teach an ill prepared AutoCAD user inside of 2 months to operate in a given company. But you couldn't make a draftsman in that period of time! So give me the "draftsman" anytime! ...You can keep the "computer jockeys"! …Mark

[glee.94356]

A person with an Autocad course under their belt does not a draftsman make. A draftsman with some autocad trainning will eventually become effective with cad. I gather that's the gist of what you are saying.
No argument here on my part.
I believe from my experience that the role of draftsman tends to have a higher level of use in MEP and other engineering disciplines.
Whereas in architecture, the architects are also the draftsman. What we design, we need to be able to draft. Be it in CAD or by hand. Some of the discussion points in this thread does somewhat revolve around the architectural field and the problems we have with intergrating design and CAD or BIM. For the most part architects still practicing without CAD knowledge tend to be either principals, senior CAdmin, project managers or senior designers. Any newbie graduating better pray they have some kind of CAD trainning. Plus it's faster to just draw the detail in CAD than sketching it in red on paper and handing it to a junior architect or intern architect ( I have a problem with calling non license architects, intern architects. NCARB should come up with a better term.)
MEP has different challenges because their designs are handed off to a third party to be drafted.
It therefore falls on this drafter to ensure that the intent of the design is properly translated. So I do agree with you. Having a trainned draftsman who knows about lineweights and assembly or construction methods is important. In today's world, that draftsman does needs to know some kind of CAD.
However the importance of good CAD skills and knowing the basics of CAD drafting standards for coordination across the disciplines should always be high on the priority list.
Hours can be wasted because somebody decides to change the world UCS, insertion point, etc. Not to mention the problems during construction because of misalignment problems or if details were drawn inaccurately.
This has been discussed in the MEP coordination thread. I have no idea how to link to it. I know there are tips. Will get around to reading it properly one day and then I will edit this. : )

[Brian Myers]

A person with an Autocad course under their belt does not a draftsman make. A draftsman with some autocad trainning will eventually become effective with cad. I gather that's the gist of what you are saying.

I believe from my experience that the role of draftsman tends to have a higher level of use in MEP and other engineering disciplines.
Whereas in architecture, the architects are also the draftsman.

Which leads to the next thing we all seem to be dancing around but not exactly addressing... the need for an Associates Degree in Drafting. Currently I do believe that there is a place for the Associates or Tech degree (and yes, a good entry level drafter should have the basic skills), but do you think such a degree will still be useful 10 years from now?

I should start with the background into my own education. I started with a 2 year vocational degree and worked 3 years as a CAD draftsman before going to college. Over the course of the next 5 years I received both my Associates and Bachelors degrees (Architecture). In my day (1989 on up....) being a "CAD Draftsman" was looked at with respect! We were respected for our CAD Knowledge and people were amazed at our skill. Today, it seems as if Designers in all fields are sitting down and doing more of their own work, often in CAD, and they talk badly about many of the candidates walking in the door (no longer "amazed" by their computer work). The complex design models these Senior Designers will create (in a true Modeling Environment) will eventually reach a level where the design itself will convey what/how things are to be built without the need for a draftsman (but perhaps with a Junior Designer to expedite the process). What happens to the "CAD Draftsman" with just a certificate or Associates degree? Will we still need them?

Personally, I know of a respected member of our local community (and very active AUGI member) that says he quit his job as the head of a local community college design/drafting program because he no longer sees the long term purpose of such education. With cheap overseas drafting talent and a change in the fabric of design I can understand the logic involved.

If my kids would take the same path I took to get my start in the field, I'm not sure they would even get a job unless they were really special and found their niche in the right industry. So not only are the programs effecting the way we learn and do design, they will ultimately effect the very thought process behind which employees we will wish to hire (based on qualifications) and which openings we have for them to fill.

This also will effect which programs these young designers will be taught in school. Drafting as we know it may eventually cease to be taught as the principles of design modeling will take over in which Information Models will be constructed, not drafted, eliminating the need for "drafters" all together.

[jaberwok]

I'd like to link Gerard's and Brian's comments.

#The times, they are a-changing#

When I entered engineering (1960s) one started with an apprenticeship - 4 years for any kind of technician but 5 years for a draughtsman. So that's 4 years to learn a trade and a further year to learn how to convey the necessary information to others.
This just doesn't happen any more.
Now one gets a degree in whatever discipline and, if relevant, that degree course will include some CAD. But does it include how to be a draughtsman? I believe that it doesn't.

Conditions have changed and will continue to change. 20 years ago a few draughtsmen taught themselves CAD; then teaching CAD became an important operation; now it's a small part of something else. Perhaps in another 20 years it will no longer be important enough to be worth discussing.
Consider word processing - how many people these days receive professional training? How many simply absorb it in passing?

[robert.1.hall72202]

I agree with not being good at the actual drafting regardless of any knowledge of AutoCad.
Drafting is a skill upon itself. One doesn't gain the knowledge of detailing prints from any course taken in college. Companies are forced to train the employees and provide a
detailed written standard on what is expected on drawings.

[glee.94356]

I was a draftsman right out of high school. Attended a vocational college (around 87-88 but not in this country) Back then we drafted working drawings using technical pens (initially using those old fashion nibs with the screw adjustment, I forget now the name for it) on mylar. We had to be fast but accurate or you were out the door. I did a number of freelance jobs though I did not graduate ( I was working and making money, back then I was young and didn't see the need). Designers and architects were really particular about which pen thickness you used to denote a wall or anything else. You could not just willy nilly draw anything you wanted. I picked up a mouse to learn Autocad R10 around that time because somebody felt I had the ability though I never used it. Came to America(got tired of drating for other people) and finally graduated(after an overly long time) with an architecture degree.
All through college, I would tear my hair out because it seemed that everyone else around me had very rudimentary knowledge of line weights (including some lecturers). When I started working I had these senior architects telling me how to draft. In my mind, they sure in heck were not draftsmen. I adjusted to their system but at least I knew the importance of lineweights.
I do believe that drafting has lost it's importance as subsequent generations of grads (be it professional degree holders or vocational or tech) have sort of lost those techniques. If you have never had to fiddle with that screw to get your lineweights just right, you don't remember the pain and it's not burned in your brain ( I still have a set that was given to me recently by one of my old bosses). Actually because of my background, I still see good penmanship as an art form. In some parts of the world even architects still rely on draftsmen who technically hold professional diplomas. Just one step shy of a full degree.
Right now we still plot to paper. In 10 years everything will be different. Will we still plot to paper? If we still do, drafting still has relevance. If it's some kind of virtual model that ties into the AEC system and the contractors software, then maybe not. But as long as the paperless working environment has not come to pass yet (actually I think we use more paper now than before), we still need good draftsmen. Or should I be saying draftsperson. Actually I used to spell it as "draughtsman".
Regardless, even with BIM, you still need to plot. You still need to set your lineweights though with 400dpi plotters, people don't seem to care because you can read everything. Which was not the point but the hierachy of defining the importance of materials or elements. Being able to see a detail and it's components is not the same as being able to "read" a detail.
For the time being, a vocational drafting degree or diploma still has relevance. Yes, many new grads now graduate knowing cad. But knowing CAD does not mean you know how to draft. In addition it depends on who's teaching the cad class and what their background is. Certain engineering disciplines draw certain elements with just a simple hierachy or no hierachy of lineweights. A architecture student attending that class because it's the only one offered will think they know what cad is after taking the class and be blown away when they see the number of layers etc, needed for architectural drafting in cad. Heck, there's vast differences between structural drafting and civil engineering drafting.
If BIM or some new form of design communication is further developed that the construction process is fully tied into it, the days of the draftsman is numbered. Heck the days of the designer/ engineer/ architect who only drafts or details will be numbered.
If the new BIM model conveys all the information you need as the lead designer puts it together and all the disciplines are tied into the model in realtime (assuming we ever get real broadband 3G or higher and not pay a ransom for it) and contractors can pull the materials off it and bid on the job then build from it, without once having to look at a sheet of drawings, then many of us need to check our retirement plans.
We're not quite there yet. But maybe in 10 years or less, who knows. Many in the BIM forums will say they are there now. Though as long as there's still paper, .....not.
The AEC world continues to evolve, who's to say what will really come to pass.
So for now, check the work being plotted out, train your drafters, implement good CAD standards that are simple and straight forward, implement quality control at all levels, check the work again and when you are done, check it again.

[Brian Myers]

I agree with not being good at the actual drafting regardless of any knowledge of AutoCad.
Drafting is a skill upon itself. One doesn't gain the knowledge of detailing prints from any course taken in college. Companies are forced to train the employees and provide a
detailed written standard on what is expected on drawings.

Plus, companies and the educational system have not adapted to the new way students are utilized within a company. It used to be that drafters would trace or modify existing details by drawing them out onto the set. Today all those basic details are already done as blocks which eliminates a key component in the early education of a "drafter". Now they are thrown into the full CD process with only a very limited education (often with just one semester/project in school of education in a particular area) and then we wonder why they are not more capable. This will only get worse as BIM is further emplimented until the day occurs where the program is capable of figuring out most of the structural issues on its own... but will our young designers be able to spot the areas that the computer wasn't quite able to get right or where it's not actually done in the field the way the computer thinks?

[dangrivakis]

I need to add to this thread myself. I have a background where I have worked now for 4 years in industry and hold my associates in CAD. The school that I went to did a good job of preparing me for the kind of work that I have been involved in. My course work was focused around a mechanical/electro mechanical core so The drafting and design courses were geared around this emphasis. Autocad was taught in the intro to cad classes and then we got into more advanced applications. With exposure to Autocad, Solidworks, Mechanical Desktop, Power PCB and viewlogic, and ADT I felt I came away with a good foundation and knowledge base of program tools. Among knowing these tools it gives me confidence to learn new programs as I am in industry and I will say that at times I have had to just for specfic purposes of interfacing with other users in the design process. Along with drafting I have learned fundementals in my associates degree that relate directly to design. Key functions of how to relate with project management and engineers as well as knowing how to read a spec and look up parts. Additional course work included electro-mechanical design, Capstone Design, Printed Circuit board design and mechanical components/design which was worked in with mechanical drafting courses. My proffessors were practioners in the field prior to their teaching days and meet regularly with an advisory board from industry. But there are some excellent questions being raised and I submit an article to read from a website that one of our instructors told us to look at a few years back:

http://www.memagazine.org/medes02/cadjock/cadjock.html

Based on this article one of the points I notice is that the drafter/cad guy needs to evolve. As software evolves we will need to see a change in the style of teaching so that drafting and design are meshed together and that when a student comes out of any one of a number of these programs they are ready to work in the design team. The vertical nature of the programs in use today makes this even more important.

Drafters need to become designers:
It can not be stressed enough. Especially today to stay in the game you need to build upon the base set of skills that are developed in the classroom. While the degree is a good way to get the foot in the door that is all it is. You get in the door and then it is upto the individual to advance. This is done through learning on the job, asking questions, reading on topics relative to your industry, further academic coursework and progress to a higher degree, ect... The drafter needs to pick a focus and direction. CAD management is one way to go or the other would be to progress as a designer and then into an engineer. I have had co-workers whom have done that start on the production floor manufacturing and move up the ranks and are mechanical engineers now. The choice is ours as designers where we end up. It is true the more you know the more you grow.