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Thread: Nested Families, switching nested components...

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    Default Nested Families, switching nested components...

    So,

    I've searched through the forums and keep finding phrases that sort of hint at the topic, but don't explain it directly...

    Let's say I take a Door Frame family, and nest a door panel family into it, and load it into the project. Some posts suggest that I could find some option in this nested family and switch the panel family that's loaded with a different panel family that is loaded. However, I'm not finding any such option, and think perhaps I've mis-read the posts...

    What I'm really looking to do is to start with a frame family (based on a door family) and be able to switch the door panel from frame to frame as an instance parameter. Ultimately, I'd like to be able to do the same with the frame, but one thing at a time. If I can pull one off, I can do it with the other later. Is something like this possible?

    Thanks!

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    All AUGI, all the time robert.manna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    Yes, it is possible.

    Quick answer; when editing the family, selected your nested object, at the top the "label" drop down should appear that you also use on dimensions & arrays. Select this and add a parameter. Now the type of the object will be controled by a parameter, available once the family is loaded into a project.

    More to come, wanted to get your questions answered first.

    ok, the more: This is what I would like to do to our door library. Not sold on the frame thing though, I think you're better off have a set of family frames that you can switch any panel into that you desire.

    If the nested family is shared, scheduling a door is going to get, unique..., you probably won't be able to directly generate a door schedule graphic like what you're used to, though there are work arounds.

    Furthmore, if the nested family is shared, you can't link its parameters. Which means, that someone could put a 4' wide panel/leaf into a 3' wide frame.

    Tagging with shared nested families could get interesting too, which one do you tag....?

    I'm hoping in the 1st quarter of next year to make all the panels in our door families as nested objects. However I intend to maintain all the pertient door info that goes into a schedule in the "frame" family. And I don't plan on changing how users interact with doors on a day to day basis, even with the change in the family(s). Instead, I'm assuming that further Revit development will address my concerns and apparent inconsistencies, such that IMHO opinion this feature set is a little more user friendly, and less prone to potential error.

    However, I am applying this feature set to our basic casework library, so that end users can easily pick and choose or create new door types for casework, yet operate off the same basic "casework shell" for floor or wall mounted cabinets. This limits the number of basic casework families we need for cabinetry, while allowing easy customization from job to job.

    HTH,
    -R





    -R
    Last edited by robert.manna; 2006-10-19 at 03:30 PM.

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    Count (Formula) dbaldacchino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    When I started building door/frame families about 8 months ago, I wanted to do exactly what you're describing. But I soon found out that this method lends itself to a lot more maintenance baggage. Once you make a change to a door panel for instance, you have to load that panel back into each family that uses that panel. It would be nice if the family could use panels loaded inside the project, so that you'd do it once in the project file or template file. This is actually possible by making the nested families shared, but as Robert points out, it becomes a nightmare to do schedules as the frame and door panel get scheduled separately.

    Seeing that it was getting more convoluted than originally thought, I decided not to do this. We basically have flush doors or doors with glass in them. So I built the flush first and from that I built another one with glass in it, fully parameterized with error checking etc. So all doors with a single lite in them (narrow lite, half glass, full glass etc) can be modelled with this panel by changing the dimensional parameters. If we have a door with a circular opening, then it's a custom panel and family that I'll build. Now, since the physical aspects of the door and frame don't change much (if it's a 2" frame, it doesn't matter if it's aluminum or metal), then I can use the same frame regardless of material. We have separate 2D details for jambs for instance, so whether the modeled frame in a 1/8" plan shows exactly what the frame looks like or not is quite irrelevant. BUT, I just have text, shared, type parameters that designate the frame material, door material etc. For rendering purposes, I made the door material a type parameter (if we have interior doors, we typically select a laminate and use it throughout), but the color of the door frame might be different, so I set that as an instance parameter for rendering purposes.

    So basically what I'm trying to say in quite a long post, first understand HOW do you see yourself using something, what is important for representation and what you want to schedule, what is the KISS way of achieving the result you want and then don't be afraid to re-visit your earlier decisions as they'll change as you discover how things really work.

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    All AUGI, all the time robert.manna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    Since David and I seem to be on the same track, as I think my doors look a lot like his... We have a "rendering material" parameter which is totally seperate from the "material" parameter that shows up in our default door schedule. If I were to re-build our doors, I would not make the leaf shared at this time. I would just do it hoping that in the future I could switch it, and make it work. Having the leaf as a nested family would simply make it easier for projects to customize doors as needed. We keep our central library locked down, so if our doors needed to be updated it would be a matter of updating the door families as needed, up-dating the master project template, then sending an annoucement that projects in production already can up-grade if they so choose, but unless the up-grade fixes a critical error, I wouldn't bother. We also version our families, in an attempt to make it easier to troubleshoot. Family problems.

    -R
    Last edited by robert.manna; 2006-10-19 at 09:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    I think I'm just beginning to head down the same road you've both already tread. Just looking for some guidance before I get too far along.

    Right now I've got a door panel with no glass and a door panel without glass, nested into a frame with a 3x3 equally spaced grid of glass. The doors have all their values set to instance and are linked to parameters within the frame family, and there are no "types" within these nested door families, since I don't need them. My next step was to add the door hardware, which I was going to create as a separate family (the way I did the glass in the door panel with glass) so I could nest this into each door panel, which are are nested into the frames, which is where all the geometry is driven.

    Nesting concept:

    Main Family -Based on frame type (steel, wood), sidelights, transoms - parameters here drive everything below

    Tier One (Nested Inside "Main Family"): Door (Flush No Glazing, Flush W/Glazing, Raised Panel, etc)

    Tier Two (Nested Inside "Tier One" Families): Glazing Fam, Hardware Fam

    I've read and re-read both your posts, but I'm not sure if what I'm describing is the way you would do things based on your experience or not. I've posted one of the frame families I've created with the door panels nested, and the glazing nested inside that. Would either of you mind taking a look and telling me what I'm not seeing? Thanks in advance.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    All AUGI, all the time robert.manna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    I haven't had a chance to look at it, but what is your logic behind nesting the glazing? I would treat it as three families.. Frame, Leaf (or panel, whatever you want to call it), and Hardware. Leaf would contain everything relavant to the leaf, etc....

    Cheers,
    -R

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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    I was originally thinking I would use a single flush door then have the glazing as a nested family that could be toggled off, rather than having two flush doors, one without glazing and one with glazing. I was also thinking I would use that as a base for paneled residential doors, and just toggle voids off or on for different paneled doors. As I started building the library based on this thinking I found it was too much in one family. That's why I'm rethinking how I started.

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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    Two comments on comments made in this thread:

    Nested panels do not have to be shared unless you wish to schedule them in addition to the door assembly itself. Assuming you can accept it, panels could be made of the generic model category instead of sharing the door category. I don't like this approach because you have two separate cateogies to manage visibility and that's confusing. I try to keep the panels as "doors" but don't share them.

    Nested AND shared panels can link their parameters to the host, the nested panel just can't use Type parameters. It really doesn't matter if the panels are using instance parameters, the host takes over that role when they are nested.

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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    The problem with turning the glazing off is that we cannot currently turn off voids. The only thing you can do is make them "move" outside the door panel (adding dimension parameters). I felt that was getting complicated and I decided to have a flush panel and a panel with glass.

    Nesting is a great way to manage your family and helps you break them down to manegable parts. The great advantage is that you can re-use them in other families, saving you time and energy. For instance a flush panel can be re-used in toilet stall families, etc.

    I don't know if I would build a family for hardware. We have not done this yet, but if I had to, I would think that parameters could handle all the info you need. These don't typically show in the drawings. In fact I have some door levers that I can turn on in my doors when we're exporting out to render in 3dsMax. Overall I think your approach is good (sounds very similar to ours). It really depends how you schedule doors....that drives your decision to assign type or instance parameters.

    I have not built door families as complex as this (with frames containing glass). I prefer the flexibility of curtainwalls so I use them as my frame, then I change the panel to a generic wall and insert a frameless door family (single flush or with glass, or double flush or with glass). You could use a curtainwall door, but I prefer to type in the door width and height (you can capture information given to you by a client at a meeting easier this way, rather than having to edit the curtain grid in 3D so the door adjusts). Anyway, I think you're on the right track.

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    Default Re: Nested Families, switching nested components...

    I'm not sure if I was clear in my earlier post when I talked about making the door panel family shared....by making it shared, you have the advantage of being able to select this shared family within the project when swopping your door panel within your host door family. In other words, instead of being able to select only nested families within the host family, you can select from other shared families within the project.

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