Revit and IES

[ejburrell67787]

I did some research yesterday before seeing this thread!! So far as I can see in the UK, you could look at Green Building Studio which at a price will give you some basic initial data for early design.
Beyond that Ecotect may or may not have the ability to read some basic building data from various cad packages. They have something in the works, or it may already be available for use with Archicad. Not sure if they can read gbxml data from Revit - their web site is unclear. Pete Baxter at Autodesk "Euro Sales Manager" ? has written a number of "papers" on the subject but I'm again not sure if there are any real tools for use with Revit.
It may be just an expression of direction that Revit may take.
There is a trial download of Ecotect available, you might want to have a look at it its a very comprehensive package - £700 - with its own sketch -up like modelling tools!!
R

Hi Rhys,

Another person in the office here uses Ecotech already and we have had the creator of it in to give us a demonstration of it. It does look excellent, however, we have questions about it actual usefulness to us as Architects. A lot of the environmental stuff on it that we would use for architectural design analysis we can do intuitively (even better assisted by Revit shadows etc) and the more detailed analysis we would rather collaborate with the M&E engineer on anyway since they will be doing the actual loads and calcs etc...!

You can export gbXML from Revit and import it into Ecotech (geometry only, mixed results reported, not yet tried it myself...), this is the path from ArchiCad to Ecotech also, and although there are claims of a more direct (even bi-directional maybe) link between them I have yet to see or hear any evidence of this!

Hope you're keeping on top of everything!

Cheers, Elrond

[kyle.bernhardt]

Pete Baxter at Autodesk "Euro Sales Manager" ? has written a number of "papers" on the subject but I'm again not sure if there are any real tools for use with Revit.
It may be just an expression of direction that Revit may take.
R

The most recent version of the IES <VE> has been developed to work with Revit-based gbXML files. As part of our development of the Revit MEP -> IES <VE> link this year, we also worked together to ensure proper transfer of gbXML data. The same algorithms are used when converting a Revit Building Model to a gbXML model as inside of our direct link.

Additionally, the upcoming release of the <VE> will have a new Sustainability Toolkit feature, which will allow you to deliver Load and LEED Day Lighting analyses with a easy interface. That workflow should lend itself nicely to doing some early-stage iterative design. You can get a free trial from IES to check out the <VE> on their website at www.iesve.com.

Cheers,
Kyle B

[ejburrell67787]

The most recent version of the IES <VE> has been developed to work with Revit-based gbXML files. As part of our development of the Revit MEP -> IES <VE> link this year, we also worked together to ensure proper transfer of gbXML data. The same algorithms are used when converting a Revit Building Model to a gbXML model as inside of our direct link.

Additionally, the upcoming release of the <VE> will have a new Sustainability Toolkit feature, which will allow you to deliver Load and LEED Day Lighting analyses with a easy interface. That workflow should lend itself nicely to doing some early-stage iterative design. You can get a free trial from IES to check out the <VE> on their website at www.iesve.com.

Cheers,
Kyle B

Hi Kyle, Thanks for the info. Glad to hear Revit Building/Architecture will also go into IES. I can't see anywhere on the link to download a trial of IES - do I need to email them for a copy? Any idea when the BREEAM analysis is expected? LEED isn't much use to us in the UK...

Would be nice to have some analysis software that is easy and intuitive to use at design stage AND is the same software that our consultants use for the actual analysis / calcs!

Cheers, Elrond

[kyle.bernhardt]

You have to request a trial via the link on the main page (see attached). I'm not sure on the BREEAM question.

Cheers,
Kyle B

[ejburrell67787]

You have to request a trial via the link on the main page (see attached). I'm not sure on the BREEAM question.

Cheers,
Kyle B

Oh I see cheers, I just went to the Revit page and didn't visit the main IES page!

[joshua]

My opinions, I do preliminary energy analysis on a regular basis.
On GBS
Greenbuildingstudio is specifically meant for early design analysis, if you are trying to use it for compliance at the end of design it is useless. I use it to give scalable estimates of savings for the client, ie this scheme will save you 15% on your ongoing energy costs verses that other scheme. GBS is still very young and has some great features coming soon. All of the comments of "at a price" are befuddling to me, the first 5 runs are free, you can then take the results and use them in other software for real compliance calcs (and energy + is free!)

Ecotect is a robust tool for all around analysis of sustainable design (verses GBS's current focus on thermal and electrical loads, shading and insolation aren't useable...for now). But as an architect I am loathe to purchase another piece of software just for preliminary analysis (I have no intention of supplanting my MEP consultants any time in the future).
I have never used IES's VE, and for the same reason I don't use Ecotect, I will probably never use it.
Energy considerations in early design of the building are owned by the architect and Revit needs to reflect this, I want to be able to tell my client (and even potential clients) that the design I show them in concept design wont be drastically changed due to not being able to meet energy code. It is bad form when you have to either ax the window wall or pay for premium glass when you get the energy calcs back in mid dd from your consultant. It reflects poorly on me as a designer. What I really want is to do all this work I currently do in other software within Revit ARCHITECTURE itself. Using information culled from the Revit model in other programs is workable, but not what I want.
j

[jwilhelm]

I like to think of an architectural design problem as a bunch of inter-related "models".
geometric model, a structural model, a lighting model, a thermal mdoel, an acoustic model etc, etc. A change to any one of these models affect one or more of the others. Ideally in a "parametric" modeling invironement, at the earliest stages of a design one would want to be able to visualize in real time, for example the affect of a change in geometry or orientation to the thermal model or structural model, the idea being that by doing so you can optimize the model(s) as best fits the situation early in the process. From my perspective, this capability must exist inside Revit for it to be useful. Exporting to other applications has always been and will always be a more touble than its worth.
If Revit is ever going to be a useful "design" environement, these things should exist within revit, in my humble opinion.

[ron.sanpedro]

Kyle,
is there any difference between what is exported via direct RevitMEP to IES VE and RevitArchitecture to gbXML to IES VE? Also, I understand how you model in Revit affects how you analyze in IES VE. Is there any kind of White Paper on the topic? We will probably be using IES in various ways on every single project in the office, so knowing how to model for downstream IES use will be very important.

Thanks!
Gordon

[ejburrell67787]

Kyle,
is there any difference between what is exported via direct RevitMEP to IES VE and RevitArchitecture to gbXML to IES VE? Also, I understand how you model in Revit affects how you analyze in IES VE. Is there any kind of White Paper on the topic? We will probably be using IES in various ways on every single project in the office, so knowing how to model for downstream IES use will be very important.

Thanks!
Gordon

I don't think there is any difference in terms of the building geometry, I think it is with light and electrical fittings and the like that you need to put the right info into the right places in Revit MEP to get the right info back out in IES <VE>. At the moment the link between Revit MEP and IES <VE> looks to simply be an API that seems to automate the whole export / import process for you.

Once the IES "sustainable toolkit" is built into Revit MEP then I think certain analysis is effectively done native in Revit MEP... although I am less clear about this as the whole "sustainability toolkit" business doesn't seem very clear anywhere I've looked so far...

[kyle.bernhardt]

Elrond,

I think you may be a bit mistaken as to what the current link to the <VE> does in Revit MEP. The Building Geometry as well as various parameters are brought directly into the <VE>. Things like Light Fixtures are not currently involved in the process. There is obviously value to items like that, and it would be logical for them to be the "next step" for further development of the link. No promises though .

Essentially what we're doing now is converting the building model geometry as it exists in Revit, into an Energy Analysis Model that makes sense to the <VE> as well as other analysis programs that handle gbXML files.

As for the Sustainability Toolkits, basically they are just "One Button" versions of the Analysis Modules in the <VE>. The modules allow you to dig down to the "Nth" degree for an analysis, as well as extract all different sorts of useful information. This, of course, comes with a price of time, complexity, and training requirements. The Toolkits make a set of assumptions that are common across all "runs" of the analysis. They are not intended for an exact result based upon lots of setup, just a way to get comparative information between different designs.

Gordon,
The resulting geometries in the <VE> between gbXML and the Direct Link aren't really going to differ. In both cases the geometries will be based on the Room geometries in the model, as well as shading surfaces (Room Bounding Elements that don't bound rooms, think of a roof overhang). The main difference is that there are additional Room parameters that are passed through the Direct Link than gbXML. In Revit MEP we expose a group of Parameters called "Energy Analysis", which are not visible in Revit Architecture. These have to do with the Heating/Cooling system in that room. These parameters serve as inputs to the analysis. In the RAC/gbXML workflow you'd have to define those in the <VE>. That's really the only difference.

As for documentation, funny you mention a White Paper. I actually took the initiative to develop a paper specifically on the topic with both the Revit MEP and IES <VE> Product Teams. We've collaborated on the document to produce what I consider required reading for anybody getting involved with producing Energy Analysis Models from Revit. Expect to see it within the next week or so. I'll be sure to post about it here.

Cheers,
Kyle B