I HATE PADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jetisart]

No. The only depth the dirt has, is the thickness of the earth which is directly below it. A pad is the intersecting plane between earth and slab/floor. It is infinitely thin, and should only have a datum height referenced from a 'level', and not a Structure/thickness (...)

I couldn't agree more!
From the beginning of my love with REVIT till short time ago, I always struggled with PADS because I was taught so.

However, when my frustration reached the peak I switched entirely to toposurface manipulation, using only "Split", "Merge" and "Graded Region" tools. And let me tell you that I am much faster overall and by far less stressed without PADS, even if repositioning of the house on SITE (in any way) means re-creation of the whole CUT/FILL and battering arrangement again...

I am not coming back to the grim business of PADS, unless they are totally overhauled...


Now, for the short outline of my way of toposurface manipulation (perhaps it may prove useful for some new REVIT adventurers...):


1)Normally, you create a toposurface in the NEW phase (since most likely you work in the NEW phase anyway)

2)If so, after creation of the toposurface, change its phase to EXISTING (since it already exists on Site…) see picture 1a.

3)Using “Split Surface” tool, create your desired building PLATFORM (for not wanting to use the term “PAD”) of any desired shape see picture 1b.

4)Our new building Platform is defined but it still has the original slope. We have to change its grade to flat – using “Graded Region” tool. Note that since our toposurface is already in the previous phase (NEW is our current working phase, so Existing is previous to current…), we don’t need to worry about this anymore… see picture 1c.

5)For the purpose of this exercise, I assumed the CUT/FILL line to be at RL 12500.
The next step is to choose all the PLATFORM boundary points and change their elevation to 12500, effectively “levelling” our building PLATFORM see picture 1d.

6)Right now we should have situation shown on picture 2.

7)Repeating earlier “Split Surface” and “Graded Region” techniques, we create CUT/FILL embankments see pictures 3a, b, c.

The final results are shown on pictures 4a, b, and c.

Now, if for any reason we want to redo anything, there is a "Merge Surface" tool...

[fyarch]

Jerry

Thanks for your comprehensive explanation of how to handle topographic surfaces with the split and grading tools. I had seen those in the Design Bar, but had no idea what to do with them. It's an area that my training never reached, so it's great to have your input with the very helpful graphics - it's very much appreciated and nothing more than I'd expect from a fellow Aussie. By the way, I'm glad that you could stop if you wanted to.

I had used P*Ds because someone had mentioned them to me and it seemed like the only way I could have my building emerge from its buried state. For the most part it worked, but when that error message came up, it became a nightmare.

MY SOLUTION - After my tirade that drew out your very helpful explanation, as I usually do, I went back to my drawing and started to work with the P*Ds again and I found a system that actually worked, albeit a fairly round about way to do things. I had to find a view where I could select a P*D (pick a P*D - any P*D), then go into something like Ground Floor plan and in the Temporary Hide tab (bottom of screen), select Isolate Category, which left me only with the P*Ds on screen. Then I could zoom in and find the offending gaps between P*Ds and fix them up. It was important that the View Range was set to a sufficient depth, so I could see a P*D that was partially hidden under another floor.

I like the sound of your method much more - it's far more like what actually happens on site. I look forward to trying it out.

QUESTION - Are the outline of the fill banks you showed on your example, drawn by you, or do they automatically draw themselves, based on the site slopes and a standard batter slope? If the latter, can that slope be adjusted in angle if necessary? Presumably if a retaining wall is in the way of a sloping bank, it overrides the bank?

QUESTION - If a large portion of a site is to be brought down to a common level, is it necessary (best?) to split that area into separate areas, or just do everything on one big levelled area? For example, in my case there's a big main house, a separate guest house, a big driveway and parking area and garden areas with varying levels for ponds and a pool. Most of the disturbed site will be at one level, but the ponds and pool will be at different (lower) levels to the main level.

Frank Y

[Anthony.d]

Jerry

Thanks so much for the graphical explanation.

[sschwartz]

Oh. I thought you were talking about something else...

[jetisart]

(...)QUESTION - Are the outline of the fill banks you showed on your example, drawn by you, or do they automatically draw themselves, based on the site slopes and a standard batter slope? If the latter, can that slope be adjusted in angle if necessary? Presumably if a retaining wall is in the way of a sloping bank, it overrides the bank?(...)

He he he - as far as I know, nothing draws itsef... apart from the lines on my face - with age.

Nope! No such luck...

And while the procedure I use is childish simple, it could also be a bit tedious at times - if you have a complex contours or CUT/FILL situation to work with.

It involves drawing a section through your BUILDING PLATFORM and altering between Site view and your Section view.

Eventually, you come up with several cross points (between your Section line and a Reference Plane - in Site view) to define the outline of your battering...

I will use the same Site as in my earlier post and an example of situation common in our part of the World - "CUT" battering can be maximum at 45º (1:1 slope) while "FILL" battering can't be any steeper than 3:2 (for simplicity I assume no Driveway).

As previously, let's assume the "CUT/FILL" line (Building Platform) to be RL.12500 (see picture 1 below).

First, create a very shallow (view depth) Section through our Building Platform. It should be "shallow" to avoid any confussion in the Section View (see picture 2a).

It pays to close all the hidden windows except for Site Plan and just created Section View - having only these two opened allows us to quickly switch between them by pressing <Ctrl><Tab> keys.

In Section View we draw our required "Battering". For the easy angles (e.g. 45º, etc.) I simply draw from the end of my Building Platform a Reference Plane representing my desired slope battering. For more difficult angles (rather than calculating them) I quickly draw my slope ratio diagram, using Detail Lines (see pictures 2b and 3d).

Now, where these "Battering" lines cross Natural Ground Line we need to draw a vertical Reference Plane (so it's visible on the Site View) see picture 2b .

In the Site View we mark the points where our freshly created Reference Planes cross Section line (picture 2c). Bear in mind that because we can't snap to the Section line (pity), we have to eyeball the intersection as good as we can.

Follow these steps for all the relevant points of your CUT/FILL situation. In my example it was enough to create 8 (see picture 4a).

Use these markers when you draw the sketch of your shape of the "Split Surface" function (as explained in my earlier post).

(...) QUESTION - If a large portion of a site is to be brought down to a common level, is it necessary (best?) to split that area into separate areas, or just do everything on one big levelled area? For example, in my case there's a big main house, a separate guest house, a big driveway and parking area and garden areas with varying levels for ponds and a pool. Most of the disturbed site will be at one level, but the ponds and pool will be at different (lower) levels to the main level (...)

Well, in my part of the World this is usually part of the Local Government regulations - for example, some councils will not allow Cut/Fill to be greater than 1.5m each. This means that, on more difficult sites, we have to create massive retaining walls. But often the height of a retaining wall is also limited by regulations, so we sometimes "split" them into several lower retaining walls (one above the other), with certain width "shelves" between them, forming so called "retaining system". Such systems are also subject to the local regulations... etc, etc...

It's hard to say, as every site may require different approach - best to check with your local authorities what is allowed and how it can/should be constructed...

[rjcrowther]

I haven't bothered with site tools since my first project with Revit - seemed more of a nuisance than anything else. I think I will give this a go.

Thanks,
Rob

[Joef]

Thank you Jerry for this very informative tutorial. You have shined a light into the gloom that was "site tools".

Joe

[Andrew Dobson]

I have a simple solution:

The developers should take the pad command out of Revit, and change the behaviour of floor slabs such that if you place a slab below ground level, it will automatically cut the ground out. (i.e. the topo would automatically attach to the bottom of the slab)

This is how it would be built after all.

[jetisart]

(...) The developers should take the pad command out of Revit (...)

No, that wouldn't be good... You see, PADs have one important feature, that I use occassionally but NOT for the toposurface manipulation. They are hopeless if you want to finish your CUT/FILL and battering nicely but (in the very early stages) they are useful to determine the vertical positioning of building on Site (RL. of the Cut/Fill line).

Very often the desired RL. of the Building Platform is rather obvious and straight-forward but sometimes there are several ways to do it - all of them valid - depending on what you want to achieve. I found, that the ability to instanteniously change the elevation of the building on Site to analyse if there should be more Cut or more Fill (especially, while discussing these matters with a Client in front of your computer) can be very beneficial. You can't achieve that easily with Spilt Surface command (it takes too many steps for every change you want to make).

So, in short: if needed, I use PADs to quickly determine desired RL. of my Cut/Fill lines. Once satisfied, I delete them and in their place create Building Platforms (using methods earlier described).

(...) change the behaviour of floor slabs such that if you place a slab below ground level, it will automatically cut the ground out. (i.e. the topo would automatically attach to the bottom of the slab)

This is how it would be built after all (...)

Hmmmm... that wouldn't be good either... You see, if your Slab (Floor) would be altering the Toposurface automatically, it could be difficult to alter Phases of particular Toposurface parts (most likely Revit wouldn't let you to interfere with the automatic process), hence to quantify the volume of earth Cut/Filled. Right now, using my method to manipulate Toposurface, Revit can give you the exact quantities of your total earthworks for your schedules, if you so desire... If the process would be automatic, most likely we wouldn't have much say in it... I don't like this idea...

[Max Lloyd]

Very interesting thread and thanks to Jerry for putting in so much input and sharing your methods (the spirit of the forum lives!)

I too would love to see much better and simpler site tools though!

Regards,

Max.