Formula Parameters in Shared Families

[phizzman]

Hello,

I am trying to create some windows/doors with shared families and I have a question about how parameters that have formulas work when they are shared into another family. I have window sashes/door panels that are shared. Some of the sashes have muntins inside whose length/height is controlled by a parameter with a formula in it.

When I load the sashes into the window family and flex it, everything works great (sashes and muntins changes sizes, etc.) When I load the window family in a project and change the sash type, it works (sash size changes) but the muntins don't change their size when the window size changes. Revit 2008

Any ideas?

Thanks

[Andre Carvalho]

Well, reading your post, looks like you did everything right. Aren't you confusing shared with nested? I assume you linked the parameters from the nested families with parameters in the main window family too.

So it's hard to say where the problem is without taking a look on the family itself. Can you post it?

Andre Carvalho

[phizzman]

Andre,

I have attached the family. Try it this way. Insert into project, create an instance, and go to elevation view. Try switching the sashes from standard to victorian. You will see the muntins are not the right size. Now try switching one of the sashes to any one of the prairie panels and leave the other as victorian. The muntins in the victorian have now adjusted. I was trying to see what was in the prairie sashes that fixed the issue, but was not able to figure it out

Thanks

Dave

[Andre Carvalho]

Dave,

Attached you will find your window working. There were muntins unlocked on the Victorian family (if you compare with your original window family, you can see that your Victorian muntins from the upper sash aren't properly aligned with the ones from the bottom sash). Also, in the standard sash family (upper muntins), the array to generate the vertical muntins weren't aligned with the top and bottom of the panel's reference planes. Then, when trying to create 6 muntins for example, the first one was aligned, the second one was a little bellow, the third one a little bellow the second one, and so on... You can check that against your original family to understand what I'm saying.

Now the tricky point: You have to chose your muntins layout before inserting the window in the wall. You will notice that if you do that, the family will work as expected. If you insert your window with standard muntins and then decide to switch to Victorian muntins, it will show the muntins like if they were wrong. But they aren't. If you just flip the orientation of your window towards the interior and then flips back towards the exterior, it will show your muntins properly. That's why I said to define your muntins layout before inserting the window. It will then show the right layout from the start.

I can't figure out why the family is behaving like that. Maybe your family became too complex.

You tried to create a window family like "one size fits all", with all the possible options included. It works great but it is too heavy (almost a 2MB family). In my computer it takes about 3 minutes just to load it into the project. Then if you want to change the layout, it will take a few more.
When you do a family with families inside, they will all be loaded into your project when you load the parent family, even if you will not be using them. So why to load your project with Victorian or 12 lite and 9 lite if you'll be just using the 6 lite layout? Are you sure isn't it better to create less complex different windows families, and load into the project just the ones you will be using? Otherwise, if you have too many windows in your project you can easily "kill" it with too much information. The same thing that happens when we overmodel our projects...

Best regards,

Andre Carvalho

[phizzman]

Andre,

Thanks alot!! I fixed the upper sash family but had not reloaded it yet. I know exactly what you are saying with the size of the family, but I do have a method to my madness (maybe I am still wrong) I welcome your advice if I should do this differently.

My understanding is that when multiple Revit Family have the same families loaded in them that when inserted into a project each family essentially has its own copy (thereby increasing the overall project size and increaseing time for changes to family). For example, door families that are based on different frame types, each family having the same set of door panels loaded.

Based on that theory, I have setup door families (hinged single, double, sliding, pocket) that are separated into different families by frame type, each family has all 18 of our door panels loaded in as shared. And our template has all of these shared door panels loaded in as well. Pre-loading these panel families in the template greatly reduces the loading time of the door family. Each door family has a few sizes with the basic flush panel set for the panel type. I load all the shared panels in so type catalogs (with all panels, sizes, etc) will work. I set the families up this way becuase theoretically all the doors ever loaded should share the same set of panels.

My intent was to do something similar with the windows.

After we tackle this question, I have some ideas on mulled windows, too.

Thanks again

Dave

[Andre Carvalho]

Andre,

Thanks alot!! I fixed the upper sash family but had not reloaded it yet. I know exactly what you are saying with the size of the family, but I do have a method to my madness (maybe I am still wrong) I welcome your advice if I should do this differently.

My understanding is that when multiple Revit Family have the same families loaded in them that when inserted into a project each family essentially has its own copy (thereby increasing the overall project size and increaseing time for changes to family). For example, door families that are based on different frame types, each family having the same set of door panels loaded.

Based on that theory, I have setup door families (hinged single, double, sliding, pocket) that are separated into different families by frame type, each family has all 18 of our door panels loaded in as shared. And our template has all of these shared door panels loaded in as well. Pre-loading these panel families in the template greatly reduces the loading time of the door family. Each door family has a few sizes with the basic flush panel set for the panel type. I load all the shared panels in so type catalogs (with all panels, sizes, etc) will work. I set the families up this way becuase theoretically all the doors ever loaded should share the same set of panels.

My intent was to do something similar with the windows.

After we tackle this question, I have some ideas on mulled windows, too.

Thanks again

Dave

No. You are not wrong at all. I agree with you on that and I nest and share my families too. I also use type catalogs to load the one I want. You are doing it the right way. I was just concerned about the size your family is and suggesting you could get rid of the families that come with the parent family if you know you will be using just Victorian sash for instance for one specific project.

Or maybe it is just my computer that couldn't handle too many windows like that...

Cheers,

Andre Carvalho

[phizzman]

Andre,

That is not a bad idea. Now for mulled windows. I have noticed that when I nest multiple single window families into one to create a mulled unit. It really slows down the project (The current windows are setup much simpler with only one sash (not shared) and no frame type).

As I am working on these windows, I am trying to figure out the best way to create mulled families. I have 3 ideas:
1-Take this single window family, save as, and copy the live objects next to the existing
2 - In a new window family, share in the following (To create swappable pieces)
frame
sash family (dh vs casement vs slider)
sill/lintel

3-Share the whole single window family multiiple times (so users can create windows out of a variety of types) dh-dh-dh or csmt-dh-csmt for example.

Any ideas?

Dave

P.S. I think we both need to get a life

[Andre Carvalho]

Dave,

I think the option 1 would be easier, but would give you less flexibility. The option 3 would be a very complex window family and probably very heavy to handle too, but definitely would give you total flexibility. The 2nd option seems to be the "compromise" between the first and the third options.

Also, you have to think how would you like to schedule the window. As a whole assembly or each window from the mulled window?

I have seen people nesting two windows families in a new window family and modeling the frame. If you don't share the nested families, then you can schedule the assembly as a whole mulled window.

Also, I have seen people making the window's frame with parameters to each side, so they can turn ON and OFF the sides of the frames that would be overlapping when adding two windows families side by side. You can then have another family with the piece that will be in between both windows...

You are right. We should give the forum a time and go outside from time to time. But as a citizen I have to give a few hours from my time helping people, sharing what I know. I read a lot about Revit and that's the best place to do this voluntary work and share what i've learned. Doing that, I'm learning more and more too. On top of that, I like discussing about Revit.
I think we are both on the right path.

Cheers,

Andre Carvalho

[phizzman]

Andre,

I know what you mean. My company just recently put it in and now I pretty much don't stop trying to figure out how to do things in Revit. I feel like I am just getting to the point where I could actuallly help someone else out on the forums. Thanks again for your help.

Dave

[Andre Carvalho]

Andre,

I know what you mean. My company just recently put it in and now I pretty much don't stop trying to figure out how to do things in Revit. I feel like I am just getting to the point where I could actuallly help someone else out on the forums. Thanks again for your help.

Dave

Dave,

You will be more than welcome helping us to keep this forum running, sharing from time to time what you are learning with Revit.

Cheers,

Andre Carvalho