ACA vs Revit

[david.kingham]

The tone of this thread is really going downhill. I have kindly asked Greg to control himself (you might love Revit a bit too much Greg ) I would advise everyone else to do the same. Lets keep this professional.

Each program has it's good and bad points and as I said has it's use in certain fields, I would disagree with you Greg that ACA is not a BIM product. If it is used properly (which most people don't) it can actually be much more powerful than Revit. It's not just lines and arcs, it's objects just like Revit and you can embed all the data you want just like Revit. The products are becoming very similar. No reason to bash ACA in an attempt to make Revit look better.

[RobertB]

... Lastly, does ACA truly "model"? Building + Information + Modeling. Are you really building and how much information does ACA have? 2.5D vs 3D, 4D and 5D!

Sigh. This fervor for one piece of software other another to provide BIM conceals some serious issues on the non-architectural side of things.

Electrically, Revit MEP, flat out, does not cut the mustard. Remember, Building + Information + Modeling. Since you cannot tell a conduit (which doesn't even exist) how many wires are contained in it, it isn't really BIM. Since you cannot create electrical loads with correct demand factors, it isn't really BIM. Since the contractors cannot rely on the model due to the need to kludge so many things, is it really BIM?

I think not.

No firm should ignore BIM, but we must not get lost in the hype that Revit=BIM. BIM can be accomplished in many different software applications and should not be locked into one platform by the architect. Yes, life is more simple for the team when everyone is using Revit-based software. But Revit makes life harder for the electrical engineer. I have not lost hope that things will improve but our architectural clients need to recognize that the software (Revit) is not really for electrical design. Yes, we can make pretty little models in Revit MEP. But that is only part of the BIM equation.

[backtothefuture4]

Of course he's kidding. OK everyone, let's agree to disagree. Their will always be a few people with specialized work who will need 2D and 2.5D tools. For those of you in that situation I say 'AutoCAD Revit Architecture Suite 2009.1". It includes AutoCAD, AutoCAD Architecture and Revit Architecture. Revit MEP Suites includes AutoCAD MEP and AutoCAD Architecture. There, problem solved and the big bad Autodesk company has given you the ability to deal with mutiple workfows and software options. Yes, the terrible monopoly is forcing you to have a suite of software options. Now you have to pay for training to learn these new products.

Did you read the brand new 48 page BIM report that shows firms getting 500% ROI from switching to Revit. The battle is over. Revit, BIM and IPD are making A/E firms profit for the first time in 25 years. McGraw-Hill BIM Report Link.

Here's a link for products compatible with Revit. There are over 50 and the list grows every day. Name one bidirectional structural anaylsis tool for ACA.

Autodesk is continuing to develop ACA, but they keep buying analyisis companies and partnering only with BIM compatible products.



Now for the fun part. ACA is not BIM and will never be BIM. ACA is a linear workflow. The work and errors get passed from person to person along the design chain with NO interoperability. Sorry, you lose this battle every time. It is archaic to think that it imbraces Integrated Project Delivery and I personally believe that you are impedind the Design to Build workflow. Fight your fight and watch the world change around you. I don't want you to move to Revit because I think it's better. I want you to consider the possibilities that you may be wrong and may be excluded from future work because you refuse to accept alternatives. Why are you using ACA anyhow? Why aren't you still using pencil and paper? Someone forced you to switch to digital drafting at some point over the last 25 years and it's not in your best interest to shun new technology.

Revit, with all of it's 3rd party developers, analysis and design tools, visualization options, LEED design linking, estimating capabilities, Facilty Management tie ins all give you more flexibility and capabilites. There's no way to compare line, circles, arcs and polylines to a relational database that can be shared live across the internet with multiple people simultaneously working on a project, in a room. XRefs versus Workset sharing? You must be joking.

Autodesk has invested hundreds of millions of dollars now into BIM products. They're not undermining their own products, their expanding all of them to try to have interoperablity. They're still spending development money on you and your friends that refuse to embrace BIM.

I will agree with you that with some discipline specific fields, Revit is not yet strong enough to contend with, but with the API, third party development, internal development, it will overtake all areas.

It's not a matter of if you move to Revit, it's only a matter of when. You must download it and start practicing with it. I beg you to only because the AEC industry is demanding it. I want you to have a job and make more money. It sounds like in your field, there's a different workflow. Maybe you learn to use Revit within your field, find workarounds for Revit and outshine your peers and become a BIM Consultant.

We love you and we care about your future. We want you to be happy and enjoy your work. We know it's battle fought firm by firm and person by person. We only have these forum discussions to help you and I personally appreciate your stubborness and will fight the battle every time because we all win as a result.

Thank you very much, you have pushed me a little closer to taking a Revit class even though my firm is committed (currently) to ACA. I've been using AutoCAD almost 20 years, it's never been a very good architectural program.

[backtothefuture4]

Below is a reply from a community college about taking an ACA class.

We do not teach ACA simply because there is not an industry demand. AutoDESK almost dropped Architectural Desktop a few years ago, but had enough of an uproar that they kept it around. REVIT is the replacement software – doing very similar things.

I know of only 1 or 2 firms in town that have used it. One has since switched to another software. I do not know of any other places in town. Seiler Instruments does have training workshops on it at various times. You could check their webpage. Just Google Seiler.

Hope this helps.

Mary

Humm?

[jaberwok]

Below is a reply from a community college about taking an ACA class.

We do not teach ACA simply because there is not an industry demand. AutoDESK almost dropped Architectural Desktop a few years ago, but had enough of an uproar that they kept it around. REVIT is the replacement software – doing very similar things.

I know of only 1 or 2 firms in town that have used it. One has since switched to another software. I do not know of any other places in town. Seiler Instruments does have training workshops on it at various times. You could check their webpage. Just Google Seiler.

Hope this helps.

Mary

To paraphrase - "no one teaches ACA because there is no demand and everyone should be using Revit; but no one is using Revit and one company who tried it changed to something else."

[backtothefuture4]

That's not quite right!.

I am not going to prolong this debate by going into detail - but I would say before users make a final decision, do proper informed research by carefully reading the information on the Autodesk website and perhaps even dropping them an email directly with any queries - you will find them very informative and without bias.

It was copied from her email reply.

[Brian Myers]

I know of only 1 or 2 firms in town that have used it. One has since switched to another software. I do not know of any other places in town. Seiler Instruments does have training workshops on it at various times. You could check their webpage. Just Google Seiler.

Since you are mentioning Seiler, you most likely are either in St Louis, Chicago, or KC. There are many firms in all those cities currently using Revit. Arcturis, Christner, Forum Studio, HOK, The Lawrence Group, Oculus, Ross & Baruzzini and many more I know currently use Revit on some (and in many cases, all) projects and that's just in St Louis. It's growing in use fast.

[H-Angus]

With all this Revit Vs ACA debate which has raged on since the dawn of time, well for a while anyway, in this and countless other threads, why do people insist on pointing out the bad points of whichever piece of software they do not use, instead of highlighting the good points of the software they do use, how it's been implemented, how it has made you more productive, etc.

We use both products depending on the job at hand and they both have their limitations, neither is all singing and all dancing in every situation.

Well that's my tuppence anyway

[backtothefuture4]

With all this Revit Vs ACA debate which has raged on since the dawn of time, well for a while anyway, in this and countless other threads, why do people insist on pointing out the bad points of whichever piece of software they do not use, instead of highlighting the good points of the software they do use, how it's been implemented, how it has made you more productive, etc.

We use both products depending on the job at hand and they both have their limitations, neither is all singing and all dancing in every situation.

Well that's my tuppence anyway

Unfortunately we only use ACA at our firm and don't use it much in a 3D way, I have not tried to learn how to model with ACA becaused there was talk about discontinued development, Recently I've bit the bullet and tried to find a night school class on ACA, but I have not found one, Revit is offered.

Our IT guy doe not support using Revit even on a limited basis, so it hard for me to ask our firm to pitch-in on the class. I feel I've been stuck in a rut for many years with AutoCAD/ACA and feel the need to move to the next level. I may end up taking the class on my own, work wise I don't know what to do.

Signed Confused

[H-Angus]

Unfortunately we only use ACA at our firm and don't use it much in a 3D way, I have not tried to learn how to model with ACA becaused there was talk about discontinued development, Recently I've bit the bullet and tried to find a night school class on ACA, but I have not found one, Revit is offered.

Our IT guy doe not support using Revit even on a limited basis, so it hard for me to ask our firm to pitch-in on the class. I feel I've been stuck in a rut for many years with AutoCAD/ACA and feel the need to move to the next level. I may end up taking the class on my own, work wise I don't know what to do.

Signed Confused

Well the fact that Revit and ACA are now available together for a similar subscription cost to what they were individually may be something you can take to your IT guy to persuade them to at least have a look at Revit, although I can understand the reluctance to switch over, a wholesale switch to another piece of software can be costly in the short term until you get up to speed.
You could also download the Trial version of Revit from the Autodesk website (which comes with a quickstart type tutorial) just to get a bit more insight for yourself.

As far as training and courses go I'm not sure what is offered by Colleges etc in your area but the Approved Autodesk Resellers should offer courses and the AUGI run events may interest you (CAD Camps).

Also have a look at the ATP Courses and AU Handouts available here which may be of use to you, as far as ACA goes the ATP129 will probably be worth a look, it takes you through a full project from start to finish using video tutorials (although the ATP team are still in the process of uploading the videos they should be available soon).