Grade a Site without a Surface

[Iceberg]

So my direct supervisor does not want me to create a surface for every project.

My question (and there my not be an answer) is how can a grade a site (commercial project for example) using the tools and label styles in Civil 3d to save time instead of creating polylines and using mtext/ blocks for labels.

[BlackBox]

That entirely depends on the complexity of your plans production requirements, specifically what information is shown in plan, profile, section, etc... More information is needed.

Perhaps you could also clarify what about making a Surface is causing an issue for your workflow?

Cheers

[Iceberg]

So typically what happens is I am given a markup from an engineer that contains a bunch of random spot shots to grade out a commercial parking lot. So I will have maybe like 30 pavement shots over an entire parking lot. When I have no or maybe 1 pavement elevation for a curbed island it is hard to generate my fault lines to define these areas correctly. I can throw in feature lines as breaklines for the contours but it still will not completly create the surface correctly.

Basically all of my label styles from curb spot shots to labeling utility structures are based on a surface. Typically profiles are generated only if it is required by the municipality. Most of our submissions contain, grading and utility design with profiles and sections needed as required. For the application in question this required a Wet Pond, an Infiltration Basin, site grading and utility design.

I am told it takes to long to generate a surface when one is not needed and that drawing in polylines for contours and using regular text for labeling is faster.

[BlackBox]

I am not in a position to stand up for you, and communicate what is or is not advantageous for your employer to owners, so please take from this what you like....

So typically what happens is I am given a markup from an engineer that contains a bunch of random spot shots to grade out a commercial parking lot. So I will have maybe like 30 pavement shots over an entire parking lot. When I have no or maybe 1 pavement elevation for a curbed island it is hard to generate my fault lines to define these areas correctly. I can throw in feature lines as breaklines for the contours but it still will not completly create the surface correctly.

Not uncommon, but you *should* be receiving enough information from engineer to complete the design task... For parking lot, I should think that minimum high & low points, and/or an established SOP for minimum % fall along flow lines, and side slope to grade the lot to edge of pavement would be identified. Just my experience.

Less, and less, I kick back some form of "More information is needed" to the engineers here... They're coming along nicely. LoL

Basically all of my label styles from curb spot shots to labeling utility structures are based on a surface. Typically profiles are generated only if it is required by the municipality. Most of our submissions contain, grading and utility design with profiles and sections needed as required. For the application in question this required a Wet Pond, an Infiltration Basin, site grading and utility design.

I am told it takes to long to generate a surface when one is not needed and that drawing in polylines for contours and using regular text for labeling is faster.

Your method seems quite simple, and easy to implement, given accurate data on which to base the surface... It's all about GIGO.

I'd venture a guess that the individual who stated such has absolutely no idea how Civil 3D works. However, the complexity of the site *should* dictate. If the site is really, really simple, maybe? It is just _so_ much more work to manually update everything after-the-fact when a change comes in. I just cannot see the cost savings, given the additional time later alone.

You can model your parking lot with COGO Points initially, and then derive edge of pavement elevations from your basic surface for bull-noses, islands, etc. and simply OFFSETFEATURE to account for curb, sod, etc. if needed. To think about having to manually draft that in Profile View and Section View is laughable given the simplicity of actually using the expensive software they've already purchased for you to use.

Cheers

[tntdraftsol]

I am told it takes to long to generate a surface when one is not needed and that drawing in polylines for contours and using regular text for labeling is faster.

Granted I don't know you and it is hard to pick up on sarcasm through written digital media, but I hope you are kidding.

For one thing, and I am sure you know this is that if you use polylines for contours, you will have to draw out each elevation. That right there should be the time killer (in my opinion). When I grade parking lots, feature lines and points are my best friends. If I am understanding you correctly you are given spot elevations across the whole site? wouldn't you use those spot elevations to draw feature lines (breaklines) to create the surface? I maybe missing something, but if you did it with just polylines, and the design changed you are having to change each polyline elevation and redrawing that polyline to get the slope you are after instead of opening up the elevation editor for a particular feature line and changing the incoming or outgoing slope, the elevation of a particular vertice, or using the other elevation tools for feature lines. All of this is not even mentioning having to make sure you keep up with your mtext contour labels and make sure they get updated when edits are made. So in my opinion to answer your question, using the feature lines and points is more efficient than drawing polylines and using mtext block labels.

[Iceberg]

Granted I don't know you and it is hard to pick up on sarcasm through written digital media, but I hope you are kidding.

I am very sarcastic yes. But sadly in this case I am dead serious. This was actually sad to me.

[BlackBox]

I am very sarcastic yes. But sadly in this case I am dead serious. This was actually sad to me.

... Sad to me, too.

[Iceberg]

The problem is the design doesn't have enough detail in it to model the TINN correctly. I might get one spot shot for a curb island and then the island on the opposite side that's like 30 feet away wont have any spot grades. So I model my fault lines off of the spot shots I am given but its just not enough to model things correctly so I spend time fudging things to get a surface that looks good but might not actually be accurate.

Since I use a label style to label my Top of Curb and Pavement elevations I don't use COGO points. I use feature lines with elevations to determine those elevations.

Would adding these cogo points to my surface add any additional purpose that my feature lines are already doing?

[BlackBox]

The problem is the design doesn't have enough detail in it to model the TINN correctly. I might get one spot shot for a curb island and then the island on the opposite side that's like 30 feet away wont have any spot grades. So I model my fault lines off of the spot shots I am given but its just not enough to model things correctly so I spend time fudging things to get a surface that looks good but might not actually be accurate.

Since I use a label style to label my Top of Curb and Pavement elevations I don't use COGO points. I use feature lines with elevations to determine those elevations.

Would adding these cogo points to my surface add any additional purpose that my feature lines are already doing?

Okay, let's backup a bit....

Firstly, you don't have to use COGO Points, but they are useful depending on your situation.

So you're given a markup with a small handful of critical elevations. Presuming you already have some 'dumb' linework which was used to produce the exhibit engineer marked up in the first place, create some COGO Points at those locations (snap to linework where prudent). Create a new Surface, and add said points to same. You now have a basic surface that hits all of the critical elevations (you may need to flip some faces, etc.). Create another Surface, and paste the original Surface as a starting point (presuming you've correctly flipped faces, etc.).

You can now convert your edge of pavement lines for islands, and bull-noses to Feature Lines, and derive their elevations from your Surface (either at this point if done en-mass). Then select your Feature Lines and use the content (right click) menu to add them to your second Surface as breaklines. You now have a proposed Surface that correctly hits all critical elevations, and 'drapes' your edge of pavement linework.

If at this point your draped edge of pavement linework is incorrect, you've either not received enough information from engineer (which you can now show them via Object Viewer; nuh uh, see here!), or you've done something wrong... Go back to where you messed up.

With you edge of pavement lines now correctly draping your critical point Surface, you can use the OFFSETFEATURE Command to account for flow line, face, and back of curb, and then use raise/lower to account for sub-grade if needed.

HTH

[tntdraftsol]

I am very sarcastic yes. But sadly in this case I am dead serious. This was actually sad to me.

you have my sympathies. Like Black Box said, spending all that money on a complex, highly sophistcated tool and using it as a door stop. That is sad.