Revit 2010 Mass Forms

[jspartz]

Has anyone tried these, using actual dimensions and shapes rather than free form? I am looking for best methods. It seems that if I draw one shape and then another that have a different amount of points the faces on the object get twisted, rather than acting like a solid blend did. Anyone else been trying this?

By the way, I tried talking to Autodesk and all I got was the response:
"Creating that form would require some many steps. Unfortuantely the only thing I can point you to is the Help files for conceptual massing as there is not a tutorial available as yet for the topic."

[jeffh]

I would suggest drawing the shapes for your blend using reference lines rather than model line. The reference lines are not "consumed" by the process of making the forms like model lines are. This can help if you want to add parameters to the lines to drive the forms.

[jspartz]

Thanks for the tip. This is not a blend though, but a mass form, and you can't make a solid blend within a mass anymore without going about it this way, correct? It looks like if I have a couple more points on one profile than the other when creating the form it twists the faces between the two so the points connect. Adding edges along the shape only adds more lines along the twist. Maybe this is why during demonstrations they always make one profile, then copy it and move the points. Is this what needs to be done? What happens when I need to go from a circular base to a tear drop shaped top? They will have different amounts of points.

[Phil Read]

Jamie -

If you're just starting the massing study, you may find it more flexible to start with a 2009 Mass and then upgrade the file to 2010. This will allow you access to the Massing techniques allowed in 2009 (no model lines/reference lines issues). As a result you can reiterate the sketch of the blend without deleting the Mass and starting over.

-Phil

[jspartz]

Thanks Phil,

Once taking a 2009 mass into 2010 and editing, all of a sudden there are Solid and Void options and clicking on the one created already, gives edit blend base and top and edit vertices. Am I missing something - when I go to create a new mass in 2010 there are no Solid and Void pulldowns, just Form. Is that what everyone else is getting too?

It looks like there's no getting both though. You either get solids and voids, or you get forms.

[twiceroadsfool]

Jamie -

If you're just starting the massing study, you may find it more flexible to start with a 2009 Mass and then upgrade the file to 2010. This will allow you access to the Massing techniques allowed in 2009 (no model lines/reference lines issues). As a result you can reiterate the sketch of the blend without deleting the Mass and starting over.

-Phil

Interesting! If that consistantly works, i forsee a lot of us making new Family Templates in 2010... With all the old Massing techniques in them. Hehehehehe...

[Scott D Davis]

Thanks for the tip. This is not a blend though, but a mass form, and you can't make a solid blend within a mass anymore without going about it this way, correct? It looks like if I have a couple more points on one profile than the other when creating the form it twists the faces between the two so the points connect. Adding edges along the shape only adds more lines along the twist. Maybe this is why during demonstrations they always make one profile, then copy it and move the points. Is this what needs to be done? What happens when I need to go from a circular base to a tear drop shaped top? They will have different amounts of points.

Blend, Extrusion, sweep...it doesn't matter in the new tools. Start with an extrusion. turn it into a blend. Add a profile and move it and the blend becomes a sweep, or swept-blend.

What Jeff is recommending is that you draw the base shape using Ref Lines rather than model lines. Then select the Ref Lines (which can be curves or splines, or straight segements now) and click the Create Form button to create the form. If you ever delete the resulting form, the Ref Lines will remain. If you use model lines, they will be consumed by the form.

If you want to mae a circular base and a tear dropped shape top then draw those two profiles and select them, then click create form. you can add other shapes as profiles to shapes that are already created. Try this: create a rectangle and click Create Form. You get an extrusion with the same rectangle on top. Now sketch a circle part way up the extrusion, and select the solid form and the circle, then click Create Form, and the circle will be added as a profile in between. Don't like the rectangle at the top? Highlight it and delete it.

The fundamental difference between 2009 and 2010 is that you don't have to pick a certain shape up front...it can become anything you want. I understand the desire to "Edit Sketch", but the same thing can be achieved by drawing new profiles and adding them to the form, then delete the profile you dont want.

[dpasa]

Jamie -

If you're just starting the massing study, you may find it more flexible to start with a 2009 Mass and then upgrade the file to 2010. This will allow you access to the Massing techniques allowed in 2009 (no model lines/reference lines issues). As a result you can reiterate the sketch of the blend without deleting the Mass and starting over.

-Phil

Really sad reading this....Disapointed

[jspartz]

Here is the issue with a much simpler shape. The edges of faces have to connect to vertices rather than snapping to midpoints of segments in both versions. This could be somewhat corrected in 2009 by using vertex connect and adding new edges between points. In 2010 Forms the add edge command creates an edge along the twisted face rather than correcting it like the vertex connect tool.

Also you must have a host for each profile in 2010, instead of typing in an offset from level. I find myself creating a dozen levels to create a mass. Is there a better way. I don't want to push/pull. I need actual heights.

[YoKanski]

Are you all doing a mass in place or starting a new conceptual mass when starting? I find it easier to start a new conceptual mass then place that mass into the project. Doing it that way you start with reference planes and can quickly copy more to where you want them with actual dimensions.

[aaronrumple]

Are you all doing a mass in place or starting a new conceptual mass when starting?

He's trying to create the equivalent of a blend in 2009. To do that you need two sketches in two different planes (or levels). Before eveything could be relative to level 1. Then you could add levels latter. Now you need a reference to hold the sketches. After the blend is created you can push and pull.

[AP23]

You can use the offset parameter of the reference points to drive the height too.

[aaronrumple]

You can use the offset parameter of the reference points to drive the height too.

But there is no such property for lines....

[jspartz]

I'm doing it in-place since this is an actual design, not an experiment that I want to switch out with different types.

One other thing I've noticed, spline through points slows to a crawl around 100 points.

Seems that these tools were based off theory, rather than practice. Jeff or Scott, I could give you the model in Sketchup form and have the factory try to model this and discover the flaws/issues firsthand. Autodesk already has a copy in support request # 1-6100924241. I would like to use these tools, but certain functionality needs to be there.

[jspartz]

The height issue can be worked around but is cumbersome. The faces twisting I cannot. In order for them not to twist there needs to be points in the same location on each profile, or a lot more points added so that they make an edge between closer points. The add edge command should add a new edge where you want between the two profiles correcting the geometry, but instead adds an edge that follows the twisted face.

[aaronrumple]

...or just give us both the new and old modeling tools side-byside.

What? 15 min. of code work to re-enable it. Excluding of course the endless meetings to figure out what the new icon for the old tool would look like.

Then it could be a big "new" feature in WU1.....

[tatlin]

In 2010 Forms the add edge command creates an edge along the twisted face rather than correcting it like the vertex connect tool..

The 2010 Add Edge command can be used to do what you are looking for. There is a way to draw directly from one vertex or edge to another. Activate the Add Edge tool and instead of mousing over the face, and seeing the preview on the UV of the face, place your mouse over a vertex and then simply draw a line going from the first vertex to the second. This will make a new edge along that route and change the topologic connections for the form. It give you the same control you have in the previous Vertex Connect, and more.

[nj_lockwood]

Matt is 100% correct about the vertex tool. Thank you Matt.

It does appear that there may be a bug in release 2010 with respect to the "add vertex" tool, where some vertices that should be connected fail to connect. I will file an defect report and escalate the issue.

I would add that to remove connections, select the edge related to the connection that you wish to remove, and press the "delete" key. In 2010, if you want to change the connectivity, you should add the connection you want before deleting the existing connection.

Regarding driving the height of your shape, the following appears to work fine:

1.) Select the top face of your form.
2.) Select the temp dim value that display between the top and bottom faces.
3.) Change the value to the desired value.

[aaronrumple]

...place your mouse over a vertex and then simply draw a line going from the first vertex to the second.

It seems this feature/technique is not covered in the help file ion any way.
Would be a handy thing those not on AUGI to know.

[jeffh]

It seems this feature/technique is not covered in the help file ion any way.
Would be a handy thing those not on AUGI to know.

This technique is covered in the help file, although it is a bit subtle. Look at the section Conceptual Design Environment>Profiles.

In the heading of this seciton is a link to an animation where adding edges and profiles is demonstrated. The animation shows adding an edge diagonally across the face of a form. If the add edge tool is used and the mouse is over the face of the form the preview edge will go vertically across the face. If you are at an edge (as shown in the animation) you will get a snap point allowing you to draw an edge at an angle across the face.

[aaronrumple]

In the heading of this seciton is a link to an animation where adding edges and profiles is demonstrated.

In an animation? They don't let us watch movies at work. Whatever happened to the written word? The Revit help files used to be so short, sweet, complete and correct. Second only to the 3DS Max help files (those guys know how to type up a storm...)

F1 at the Add Edge button brings up nothing of use.

[jeffh]

In an animation? They don't let us watch movies at work...

The animation is embedded into the CHM file. It opens a browser window but the file it is running is on the local machine.

[aaronrumple]

The animation is embedded into the CHM file. It opens a browser window but the file it is running is on the local machine.

Yes - I know that - even thought I missed the class on authoring help files at Yale. Geez. (....and no system in our office has sound. So - yes - movie watching is rather difficult.)

My point was that animations are a very slow way to get instant help on a particular issue. Very slow.

Also the animation is rather misleading. It makes it look like you could add an edge on any surface. This doesn't seem to be the case. You can only add edges in particular ways based on a not disclosed set of modeling rules of the massing engine. None of the red lines in the attached sketch can be added as edges.

[jspartz]

I tried that before but figured the tool doesn't work like that, since it definitely wasn't working. It is very random about where you can add edges. Here is a picture on the simple object that you can test out. The blue lines are where it will add an edge, the red lines are all the places it will not let me add an edge, or once added immediately causes an error and wants to delete the mass.

Thanks for the information on editing the height - it's very useful. I didn't notice that before.

[jeffh]

(....and no system in our office has sound. So - yes - movie watching is rather difficult.)

Animations were created with written captions (no sound required) for this very reason, and they can more easily be localized.

[david.metcalf]

Animations were created with written captions (no sound required) for this very reason, and they can more easily be localized.

Oh Jeff, that's nice! Being deaf, I can't understand a spoken word.I love the captioning in the avi's. Please bring that to Bernie Duncan's attention.

[violet78]

I tried that before but figured the tool doesn't work like that, since it definitely wasn't working. It is very random about where you can add edges. Here is a picture on the simple object that you can test out. The blue lines are where it will add an edge, the red lines are all the places it will not let me add an edge, or once added immediately causes an error and wants to delete the mass.

Thanks for the information on editing the height - it's very useful. I didn't notice that before.

I'm having the same issues. I have a mass with two horizontal planes, lots of vertical planes. I can "add edge" to the vertical surfaces, but not the horizontal. That's a pretty severe limitation when I'm trying to adjust roof heights. Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?

[brenehan]

Is it just me, but is there a way to move a vertix point of a 3d form a set distance in a specific direction with in a 3d view. It is easy to grap a vertix and move it in an X,Y,Z direction but god only know how far I have moved it?
I would have hoped I could grab the vertic, select the X,Y or Z axis, drag it in the direction I want, and then type in say "1000", and It would move that set amount. But no not that obvious.
Am I just missing something?

Thanks
Brian

[bmadsen]

Appreciate the helpful suggestions - Add a line to the face - but there must be limitations to the line becomming a control.
- Created a shape
- Select face and (go to create tab first) set work plane
- Draw a line on the face
- Select the line - no control....Move the line - no modification to shape
- Try again by adding control points to the edges and redrawing line to control points
- Still no control on the line.

There must be something simple that I missed.

[jeffh]

Appreciate the helpful suggestions - Add a line to the face - but there must be limitations to the line becomming a control.
- Created a shape
- Select face and (go to create tab first) set work plane
- Draw a line on the face
- Select the line - no control....Move the line - no modification to shape
- Try again by adding control points to the edges and redrawing line to control points
- Still no control on the line.

There must be something simple that I missed.

To get controls you don't draw a line on the face. You need to select the form and then select the "add edge" command from the ribbon.

[AP23]

To get controls you don't draw a line on the face. You need to select the form and then select the "add edge" command from the ribbon.

This will only work on vertical edges. Edges can only be added on the top and bottom edge.

[bmadsen]

To get controls you don't draw a line on the face. You need to select the form and then select the "add edge" command from the ribbon.

Yes, tried that first.
- Select form
- Select Add Edge
- Get the "no" icon when mousing over ANY surface/edge of the object - so the tool cannot be used anywhere. Is there another hidden step?

Also
- Select Add Profile - is greyed out - not available for a rectangular box form?

(I'm trying to do this to a simple rectangular extrusion - not a complex shape.)

[jeffh]

Yes, tried that first.
- Select form
- Select Add Edge
- Get the "no" icon when mousing over ANY surface/edge of the object - so the tool cannot be used anywhere. Is there another hidden step?

Also
- Select Add Profile - is greyed out - not available for a rectangular box form?

(I'm trying to do this to a simple rectangular extrusion - not a complex shape.)

No trick. No extra step. Here is a link to me adding edges to a simple rectangular form and then moving them around a bit. This will only work on "vertical" faces in the "vertical" direction.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Jeff.Hanson/folders/Jing/media/e6062e8a-b17f-4195-b426-a1b89a10b38e

[bmadsen]

No trick. No extra step. Here is a link to me adding edges to a simple rectangular form and then moving them around a bit. This will only work on "vertical" faces in the "vertical" direction.

http://www.screencast.com/users/Jeff.Hanson/folders/Jing/media/e6062e8a-b17f-4195-b426-a1b89a10b38e

Thanks for the video. On the block I made, the behavior was nothing like yours.

It appears the "trick" is to NOT use Reference Lines but to use Model Lines to create the shape.

So one must carefully think about the construction sequence to keep options open for modifying shapes.
- Use reference lines if you want to control the shape from (only) the original construction lines.
- Use model lines if you expect to modify the shape using added lines to (vertical only) surfaces.

[jeffh]

So one must carefully think about the construction sequence to keep options open for modifying shapes.
- Use reference lines if you want to control the shape from (only) the original construction lines.
- Use model lines if you expect to modify the shape using added lines to (vertical only) surfaces.

Yes this is true. if the form is generated from reference lines the behavior is different from when the form is generated from model lines.

[djn]

http://www.screencast.com/users/Jeff.Hanson/folders/Jing/media/e6062e8a-b17f-4195-b426-a1b89a10b38e


Interesting video. I like the part when you go to click on the create form button and it moves on you. Glad to see that the ribbon even fakes out Autodesk Employees.

[djn]

Yes this is true. if the form is generated from reference lines the behavior is different from when the form is generated from model lines.

I have also found this out the hard way. What was the purpose of having both reference lines and lines to generate forms? As far as I know this is the only modeling program that does it this way. What I have found is that if you use reference lines to create your form you extremely limit yourself on what free form modification you can do. Seems like what we really need is the ability to change from reference lines to lines mid stream, releasing itself from the built in constraints.

[bregnier]

It is possible to switch from reference-based forms to unconstrained forms, BTW. From the help:

Select the reference lines on a reference-based form.

Click Modify Reference Lines tab>Element panel>Element Properties drop-down>Instance Properties.
Clear "Is Reference Line."
The form is unconstrained.

Not that I'm defending the new massing tools....

[cadclips]

I might also add that if you parametrically constrain reference lines in plan before you make them into a form you can control both the top and bottom of the extruded form with those parameters. However, If you were to do the exact same thing with model lines the top of the extrusion will NOT be controlled by the parameters.

[sbrown]

What a pain. I was told to only create geometry using ref. plane lines, because if you create it using just plain lines the original lines get eaten. But if you do that then you can't add edges. Very odd.

[twiceroadsfool]

Its annoying, but you split the original reference line using the split cool, and it will add an edge. But its behavior is bizarre. It adds a vertical edge, but it also reverses the form to a *down* instead of an *up.* Then it deletes one of the faces, which means you need to recreate part of the form.

Wacky, to say the least...