Comple Curved Curtainwalls in Revit and the Real World

[NKramer]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to build the attached curtain wall?

We had another project with complex curves in the curtain wall that in the end could not be constructed due to pannelization, fabrication and load pathing.

I know I can use the 2010 massing and curtain wall tools to build it in Revit but will it follow real construction rules? If not is there a better program out there for design as well as structural analysis?

Nick

[jeffh]

Here is my shot at it in 2010. I am not sure if it is any more constructable than what you were getting before.

I am attaching the file if you want to take a closer look at the Revit file.

[NKramer]

The issue is not necessarily drawing/ modeling it in Revit or any other software for that matter but creating something that is buildable....

Is there a way to get the curvature of each panel into a schedule or better yet to dictate the design based on a minimum and maximum curvature? Also can you unfold a curtain wall?

I think the answer to both of these is no, but perhaps I am missing something or the data is available via the API.

Nick

[harry.mattison]

Hi Nick,

If you are interested in considering how the Revit API might be useful in this situation, I'd be happy to make some suggestions.

I am assuming that the panels are flat, so could you describe more about how you would want to compute the curvature?

Regards,
Harry Mattison
Revit API Developer

[NKramer]

Hi Nick,

If you are interested in considering how the Revit API might be useful in this situation, I'd be happy to make some suggestions.

I am assuming that the panels are flat, so could you describe more about how you would want to compute the curvature?

Regards,
Harry Mattison
Revit API Developer

That would be great. I will try to find out the exact problems with the previous curtain wall and thus the constraints that we are forced to align with on Monday.

The basics of what we are looking at is how do we create the curtain wall based on a certain curve and then standardized panels/ curves.

Harry, From your post I assume that Revit knows the curvature of the panels and arc segments. Can this be formula or rule driven?

thanks,
Nick

[harry.mattison]

Hi Nick,

Are you using the 2010 Massing functionality to create this wall? You might be interested in the Revit API SDK samples for Massing which show some of what the API can do to create, measure, and analyze geometry. The SDK can be installed from the "Install Tools and Utilities" section of the Revit installer.

Points can be created based on formula and a curves can be created through those curves. Regarding "rule driven" geometry it would be helpful to understand more about the kind of rules you have in mind.

Harry

[jspartz]

Although I would never discourage trying to do what you are doing in Revit, I would just like to point out that Digital Project may be better suited for what you are trying to accomplish. It let's you do free form shapes and dimension and annotate in 3D space and the CATPart files can be translated into many different file types for fabricators. It's very expensive software though. http://www.gehrytechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_jportfolio&cat=3&Itemid=25

[NKramer]

Although I would never discourage trying to do what you are doing in Revit, I would just like to point out that Digital Project may be better suited for what you are trying to accomplish. It let's you do free form shapes and dimension and annotate in 3D space and the CATPart files can be translated into many different file types for fabricators. It's very expensive software though. http://www.gehrytechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_jportfolio&cat=3&Itemid=25

We thought about that. We actually have someone who use to work for Gehry and theirs is a very long and involved process that we don't really have the time or funding to learn and go through. Basically they draw in Rhino, export to digital project, work in there, export to cad and document there. That's assuming that everything is correct the first time and that you don't need to go through the process several times...

Unless anyone knows of a curtain wall designer/ contractor that uses it that we could sub out to.

We are working on getting the rules together to see if Harry has any insight as to how to plug them into the API. Still open to other suggestions though :)

Nick

[jspartz]

Here is my shot at it in 2010. I am not sure if it is any more constructable than what you were getting before.

I am attaching the file if you want to take a closer look at the Revit file.

Jeff, you make it look so easy. After 40 minutes I was finally able to create what you did from scratch. I had to learn the new form techniques. You can add edges to manipulate the surface. And you can dimension from points within the components used for the surface division. You can't unwrap it in Revit though. I've heard Inventor will unwrap, and know of a couple fabricators using Inventor, and now you should be able to send Revit information to it easier.

Unfortunitely, there are no 3D dimension capabilities. The dimensions are snapping to 3D points, but displaying a 2D dimension (not the object's dimension, but the view's dimension). I would use Inventor to do the dimensioning as well.

[jeffh]

Jeff, you make it look so easy.

to be fair, I have had access to the tools for longer than you. That gives me a head start. Once you guys have the tools for a couple of months you will put me to shame. :-)

[mthurnauer]

well the first issue as far as real world is concerned is that the whole system is going to require a structural frame. The curtainwall manufacturer will not engineer their system to be the primary structure. They will essentially 'clad' a roof frame for you. So, if you have a framing system of curve tube steel below the curtainwall, then do you want to also have a curtainwall frame or would you want to use a spider type system? There is obviously quite a bit of difference in cost. If you use a conventional mullion system then you need to review the angle limitations of he different types of mullions. For example, a typical rectangular tube will allow for a max. angle of 3 degrees for each intersecting mullion. If you need a greater angle than that then you will need to go to an angled mullion. As far as how to document the design, I am beginning to move more in the direction of providing less dimension drawings and simply indicating the model is available. But if that is not going to fly, then I would make a annotation tag that allows you to tag the intersections of all of the curtainwall points and then create a schedule that lists the coordinates of all of the points.

[mthurnauer]

I have played with this a little. It was pretty easy to make your shape in revit 2009 by simple making a sweep blend mass and then generating the curtainwall system from the face of he mass. I was going to toy around with making a symbol that you could place on every intersection of the curtainwall and then create a schedule that would list the coordinates of all placed instances of this 'symbol'. I will have to get back to that idea, but for now, the easiest way to convey your idea will be to simply create a plan with spot coordinates at each intersection. You will want to create a key that will show what this coordinate is. Is it the top og glass face of frame face of structure etc. I edited the coordinate tag to include the elevation. and I also revised the 0,0 point. You will want to show where the 0,0,0 benchmark is in relation to the object. I think it would also cleaner data to just use decimal feet to an appropriate precision. I hope that helps.

[twiceroadsfool]

I have played with this a little. It was pretty easy to make your shape in revit 2009 by simple making a sweep blend mass and then generating the curtainwall system from the face of he mass. I was going to toy around with making a symbol that you could place on every intersection of the curtainwall and then create a schedule that would list the coordinates of all placed instances of this 'symbol'. I will have to get back to that idea, but for now, the easiest way to convey your idea will be to simply create a plan with spot coordinates at each intersection. You will want to create a key that will show what this coordinate is. Is it the top og glass face of frame face of structure etc. I edited the coordinate tag to include the elevation. and I also revised the 0,0 point. You will want to show where the 0,0,0 benchmark is in relation to the object. I think it would also cleaner data to just use decimal feet to an appropriate precision. I hope that helps.

I have used such a "symbol" to report coordinates before... It could work, if they reported from a common origin. All you need is Shared coordinates. Of course, in my exercise, i needed only X and Y coordinates, but it would be quite easy to add in a Height value as well. I wrote about using it here:

http://malleristicrevitation.blogspot.com/2007/05/revit-random-and-different-platforms.html

[Scott D Davis]

Unfortunitely, there are no 3D dimension capabilities. The dimensions are snapping to 3D points, but displaying a 2D dimension (not the object's dimension, but the view's dimension). I would use Inventor to do the dimensioning as well.

You have to set the plane in which to dimension, and then place dims. Then switch to another work plane, and place more dims. Repeat.

[winnwgomez]

Hi

i'm a bit confused about the massing tools in 2010. Ok, we have a new massing env. where we build the conceptual mass. Do we have to do the patterning in conceptual mass? if you load it into the project, i cant find the divide surface tools or apply any patterns to the surface. If i bring in the patterned surface into the project, i am unable to add any mullions. What am i doing/thinking wrong?
Could someone help?

thanks a lot
winn

[snurresprett9]

Hi

What am i doing/thinking wrong?
Could someone help?

thanks a lot
winn

If you made a new thread instead of hijacking this, you probably would get some answers...

[Scott D Davis]

Hi

i'm a bit confused about the massing tools in 2010. Ok, we have a new massing env. where we build the conceptual mass. Do we have to do the patterning in conceptual mass? if you load it into the project, i cant find the divide surface tools or apply any patterns to the surface. If i bring in the patterned surface into the project, i am unable to add any mullions. What am i doing/thinking wrong?
Could someone help?

thanks a lot
winn

All of the patterns and the application of curtain panels by pattern occur in the conceptual massing environment. Apply a pattern to your mass in the conceptual mass editor. Then create a curtain panel by File>New>Family. Choose the "Curtain Panel by Pattern" template and create your panel using the ref lines and points in the template. Change the configuration by selecting the grid and then go to the Type Selector to choose a panel geometery to match the pattern, ie Square, hex, triangle, etc. Load the Curtain Panel into the Conceptual Mass family. Then select a face with a pattern, go to the type selector, and find the loaded Panel under the pattern name. This will apply the panel to the mass.

Once than is done, then you can load the whole mass with the panels into a project.

[winnwgomez]

Thanks Scott
that cleared up a lot of things for me!!


best regards
winn

[pomalt13]

Hi everyone and thanks for this interesting topic. !

The new massing and panneling tool (rac2010 ) is really promising ...but if i've undestood correctly; while it is possible to apply different pannel shapes to a mass(a freeform one for example) , we could not get a schedule of the different pannel dimensions and positions ?

[mthurnauer]

To go back to your original question about buildability, I think you need to start more with the overall structure rather than focusing on the curtainwall first. As I mentioned in a previous post, the structure of this roof is not going to be the curtainwall frame, but some structural steel framing system. The distance that the structure cantilevers beyond the top of your columns is pretty heroic and would require a pretty large profile structural member. The same is true about the base of the columns coming together to a common point. The simplest solution to both of these issues would be to have two rows of V columns. If this is not an option, then you would at least want the tops of the columns further out toward the ends of the roof and the bases spread a part a bit. Two other issues to consider is how the roof is supported beyond the ends of the last columns. I would think that you may want to have a structural system of rolled tube steel purlins that run horizontally. Also, it appears that you have a glass wall that is to intersect the roof. How will these come together and deal with movement, thermal stress, condensation of structure going from interior to exterior? If you want any further assistance with some of these issues let me know.