New a Paragraph on 64 bit

[paubin]

Hello:

I am putting the finishing touches on the manuscript for Mastering Revit Architecture 2010. I use Windows Vista 32bit. I have little to no first-hand experience with the 64 bit version of Windows or Revit. My understanding is that 64 bit basically allows you to access more memory beyond the 32bit limit if 4 gig. I am not aware of any other benefits although with Revit that is pretty huge. So, the point of this post is this:

I would like to include a paragraph or two in the preface that comments on 32 vs. 64 bit. I simply want to make some general statements about the benefits and/or issues. If anyone has 64bit Revit running on either XP or Vista, and would be willing to write up a quite summary on their thoughts/findings/impressions on it, I would appreciate it. My intention is to publish this paragraph in the Preface of my book either as-is or with minor editorial edits as appropriate. If you post something here, you are agreeing to give me permission to do so. In exchange, I will give you credit for the passage in the book.

Thank you in advance.

[need4mospd]

I wish I could comment a bit more on 2010 specifically, but my experiences are mostly towards the 2009 version when comparing the 32 vs 64 bit software. I've used 32 bit Revit 2009 with 32 bit OS, 32 bit Revit 2009 on a 64 bit OS, and the 64 bit Revit 2009 on a 64 bit OS. I've also been using 2010 on both 32 & 64 bit OS's since it came out. I've run the AU 2009 benchmark tests on all the 2009 versions, I'd love to try a 2010 version when it comes out. My comparisons have all been done on the same exact machine, with freshly installed (dual) OS's.

The program, as it functions, is exactly the same. No difference to the user. In benchmark comparisons of Revit 2009, the 64 bit outshines the 32 bit by roughly 20% in total benchmark time on my specific machine(180s-222s). The 32 bit Revit 2009 performed equally in both OS versions. The 64 bit version seems to operate a bit smoother, even when only using 500Mb of memory. It's not a drastic difference, in fact, if one were to "blind" test the versions most people probably couldn't tell which is which. I don't switch between them often since the 64 bit is my main OS of choice.

My machine:
i7 920, 6Gb Ram, ATI 4850
Vista 64, XP 32 (minor testing in Windows 7 beta 64 as well)

Hope that helps! Love your blog!

[whgeiger1]

What follows is an initial paragraph that I am sure will need further work. But, it should get the "ball rolling" for you.

Regards,

WHG

Windows like most all modern operating systems (OS’s) virtualizes its memory space to a hard disk. Real memory is usually insufficient to accommodate MPU cache, BIOS and data buffers, as well as the typically numerous active tasks and applications running concurrently under OS control. Segments of the latter are continually swapped between real memory and a hard disk when called upon to perform some function. When address space is expanded to a 64-bit domain, and in part populated with additional memory chips, then swapping activity will be significantly reduced and a concomitent decrease in processing time can be realized. Furthermore, processing algorithms can now be redesigned to work over much larger data matrices that in many instances, leads to increased algorithm efficiencies as well.

[mruehr]

I can only give limited experience from my Home Machine.

You are able to open and work in Bigger Models
You have more Virtual Memory even if you don't gain Speed it will not crash big Projects on limited Ram.
You can print more Sheets at the Time (this is useful even in small Projects)
Speed increase approx. 20% with very big Models some reported higher Gains
With more Ram you can reduce Hard disk swapping.
You can Export more Views to Acad at a time.
With more Ram you get faster update on Groups.

[clog boy]

XP (x32) can only address 3GB of physical RAM, and any 32 bit architecture or OS can only address 2^32 of address locations, one bit each, resulting in 2^32 / 1024^2 MB (4096) of RAM. When working with a dual- or quadcore processor the domain is doubled or quadrupled, resulting in a potential 8GB or 16GB of addressable memory. The OS will have to support this. The two above comments (mruehr and whgeiger1) are an excellent breakdown of this.

There are more benefits. Core2quad processors distribute the multiple threads (miltithreading) over all cores, even if a 32bit OS can only address one. In other words each Revit session can only use the full capacity of one core, even if that load is distributed. I have not tested this, but I think a 64 bit operating system would result in more efficient use of multiple cores with more open Revit sessions (if two sessions are opened, both can use the full capacity of one core). The available processing power increases from 25% with two projects open in one session, to 50% with two projects open in two simultaneous sessions. This is further supported with more available RAM.


The breakdown is that the operating system better supports today's technology, increasing system performance and productivity. And even on a x32 version of XP, multithreading support can cut render times to 1/6th in relation to single core processors or multicore processors without multithreading support.

[Scott Womack]

Hello:

I am putting the finishing touches on the manuscript for Mastering Revit Architecture 2010. I use Windows Vista 32bit. I have little to no first-hand experience with the 64 bit version of Windows or Revit. My understanding is that 64 bit basically allows you to access more memory beyond the 32bit limit if 4 gig. I am not aware of any other benefits although with Revit that is pretty huge. So, the point of this post is this:

I would like to include a paragraph or two in the preface that comments on 32 vs. 64 bit. I simply want to make some general statements about the benefits and/or issues. If anyone has 64bit Revit running on either XP or Vista, and would be willing to write up a quite summary on their thoughts/findings/impressions on it, I would appreciate it. My intention is to publish this paragraph in the Preface of my book either as-is or with minor editorial edits as appropriate. If you post something here, you are agreeing to give me permission to do so. In exchange, I will give you credit for the passage in the book.

Thank you in advance.


Paul,

The 64 bit version of Revit 2009 was still limited in the amount of ram it could access. The 2010 64 version does not have this limitation. Therefor, the 64 bit version can access more ram than its predecessors. This can permit the 64 bit version to work on larger models, convert larger models from an older version into the 2010 version, as well as provide some marginal speed increase in that more of the model can be in ram memory, without the application needing to place it into a paging file on a hard disk.

[cliff collins]

Paul,

The 32 bit OS and 4 GB ram limitation results in a threshold of approximately 200MB as a maximum file size in the Revit 32 bit environment.

The 64 bit OS and Revit software allow larger models to be created, saved
and shared in a workset environment, as well as the ability to handle linked models from Revit Structure and MEP.

A good rule of thumb for file size management is:

4 GB Ram = 200 MB file size. Even with the "3G switch" enabled, only 3G are available
for Revit 32 bit systems.

8 GB Ram = 400 MB file size. 64 bit systems can easily handle and exceed this threshold.

When working on large projects in Revit, and when files sizes exceed 200 MB,
the 64 bit OS and software are required.

Best practice experience from our real world projects demonstrates that 32 bit and 64 bit machines and software should not be mixed on projects larger than 200MB, as the 64 bit machines will be able to save and produce larger models, and the 32 bit machines will reach their memory limits and not be able to open or save the project.

Hope this helps. Looking forward to the new book!

Cheers.

[josh.made4worship]

Paul,

Good luck on the new book. I am sure it will be great!.

I just wanted to add this to what everyone else said. We started a project in R2009 before 64-bit Revit was released.

The project was a rather large 250,000 Rentable (450,000 Gross) SF Historical Renovation project in Downtown Dallas, consisting of 4 separate buildings on the same peice of land, converting existing Office Space and some historical space to Apartment/lofts. We also added a large ramp structure on the side of one of the buildings so that we could park the first 5 levels of that building and one of the adjacent buildings. Scope also included a new amenity area, parking, and some other site modifications.

We decided, due to the limitations of 32 bit, to split each building up into it's own file. However, we of course wanted all of the benefits that Revit offers for views, as well as annotating, so we had to set up all the views to be "by linked view" etc. It was a royal pain! Don't get me wrong, I love Revit, but had I known that 3 months later, 64 bit would have come out, we would have just put everything in one file. We had 69 unit types and garage plans, etc. that we had to do this "by linked view."

In summary, because of this, I think we could have saved about 30% production time had we had everything in one file from the beginning, which 32-bit originally limited us from doing efficiently. At the end of the project, we had 5 Revit files, 4 individual buildings, and 1 for the site, Ramp structure, amenity area, etc and all of the associated views and sheets for the whole project. MEP was in Revit as well.

The whole CD set was about 400 sheets 30x42, and the architectural files averaged about 90 MB per file, totaling about 450 MB. At the end of the project, I was begging my boss to add another 8 GB of RAM to the 8 GB I already had, which was only possible with 64-bit, plus I upgraded the R2009 project to R2010 a month before issues 100% CDs to get the better performance that was aluded to above.

Sorry that was so long, but hopefully that helps to illustrate what the others were talking about.

[paubin]

Hello everyone:

Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like what I have heard is correct and the primary benefit is more RAM which means larger files can be opened and in some cases more quickly. So, what doesn't work well in 64bit? Are there driver issues? or applications that don't run? In recommending that people consider 64 bit for Revit, should I warn them about anything? Thanks again.

[Steve_Stafford]

I've been using XP64 since June 2008 and I haven't had the slightest Revit related issues. I have only found a few applications that have a hard time with it, Neat Receipts is one. Their scanner driver doesn't support XP64. They emailed me to be part of their beta but then I never heard from them again. Otherwise I wouldn't know I was using anything special. It is quite nice to see 8 gb of ram in Worksharing Monitor's Performance Monitor.

[brenehan]

Hello everyone:

So, what doesn't work well in 64bit? Are there driver issues? or applications that don't run? In recommending that people consider 64 bit for Revit, should I warn them about anything? Thanks again.

Yes there is some software applicaitons that don't work yet on 64 bit. We are currently waiting of software like VPN and Oce (batch printing) to bring out 64 bit applicaitons on some of their applicaitons.
We haven't had any problems with Printer drivers. If a firm has a custom built Database, it's unlikly it will work on 64 bit.
In these circumstances, you have s 64 bit computer for you high end applicaitons and a 32 bit computer for the other applicaitons. We have found some of the applications not upgraded to a 64 bit version, would not be used day to day by your typical Revit user but each firm will need to do their own investigation.
For a one man firm, it's unlikly they will need to use a 64 bit OS. I can't imagine their file sizes being that big.

[swalton240189]

Paul,

The 64 bit version of Revit 2009 was still limited in the amount of ram it could access. The 2010 64 version does not have this limitation. Therefor, the 64 bit version can access more ram than its predecessors. This can permit the 64 bit version to work on larger models, convert larger models from an older version into the 2010 version, as well as provide some marginal speed increase in that more of the model can be in ram memory, without the application needing to place it into a paging file on a hard disk.

So far we haven't noticed any limits in the amount of RAM Revit 2009 x64 can use on vista 64. We have 8gb, 12gb and 16gb equipped machines and Revit seems happy to use it all at least according to the work sharing monitor and task manager.

Anecdotally we have noticed 20 to 30% performance increases with Revit MEP 2010 x64 over 2009 x64 because as you say it was a ground up build for 64 bit.

[swalton240189]

One other thing I just remembered Navisworks eporter 2009.1 doesn't work in Revit 2009 x64. The Navisworks 2010 exporter does work in Revit 2009x64 so I guess if your are on subscription that isn't an issue.

My OCE plot client seems to work fine in vista 64.
No other issues that I can think of in switching to the 64bit OS.

[paubin]

Hello Folks:

So, here is what I settled on:

A Note about Computer Hardware and Operating Systems
If Revit is your primary production application, you may want to consider maximizing your hardware to boost performance. Most computer systems today use 32bit hardware and operating systems (OS). This places the limit on the amount of memory (RAM) that the OS can address. Depending on your current configuration, this will be between 3 and 4 gigabytes maximum. 64bit hardware and operating systems are becoming much more popular in recent years. 64bit Hardware from many manufacturers is available and both Microsoft Windows XP and Vista come in 64bit editions. The 64bit version of Revit is functionally the same as the 32bit version. Users will notice no difference in the interface or function of the product. The primary benefit of the 64bit version is its ability to access significantly more memory than 32bit versions. Many users of 64bit OS have machines with 8 or 16 gigs of RAM. If you frequently work on large projects, it will not be unusual for your Revit models to exceed 200 MB in file size. At some firms, models of 500 MG and larger are not unheard of. (The author has even seen models of nearly 1 gig in size!) If you work on projects with file sizes in this range, the 64bit version is a must.
Using 64bit and having more RAM in your system will give you the following benefits:
• You are able to open and work in larger models
• You can print more Sheets at the Time (this is useful even in small Projects)
• Speed increases of approximately 20% have been reported with very big Models (some reported higher gains)
• Even if you don't realize these speed gains you will not crash large projects on limited RAM.
• More physical RAM reduces the amount of hard disk swapping required.
• You can export more views to AutoCAD at a time.
• Intense operations such as updating Groups will will process faster.
Please note that in some cases, not all of your existing software will run properly on 64bit OS. This may be the case for older programs or custom database applications. Check with the program's manufacturer to see if 64bit is supported. While most firms report good compatibility with 64bit systems, be sure that all of your hardware supports it and that printer drivers are available. Also, it is not recommended that you mix Revit 32bit and Revit 64bit on the same project. This can cause problems as the 32bit system runs out of memory and is unable to save the project.


****
Thanks to the following members of the Autodesk User Group International forums for their input on the 64bit version of Revit and 64bit machines: need4mospd, whgeiger1, mruehr, clog boy, Scott Womack, josh.made4worship, Steve_Stafford, swalton.161301, cliff collins, brenehan
_________________________
If anyone has any comments, edits or additions, now is the time....

Thanks.

[jspartz]

I see the section is on hardware but speaks nothing of processor cores.

Currently Revit is not multi-threaded except for the Mental Ray rendering engine, thus the use of Revit (if not rendering) is faster on a high-end single-core machine than a mutli-core processor machine because the single-core processors have a higher clock speed. It is suggested though to use multi-core machines because other programs can utilize all cores simultaneously. All processing intensive applications are making a switch over to being multi-threaded, just like the industry switch over to 64-bit. The typical improvement in the application is a 80%-90% speed increase going from a single-core to a dual-core, where memory constraints are no issue. You do not see 100% increase in the applications speed because of the overhead of the upfront splitting of tasks into threads. Thus, when Revit is optimized for multi-threading there should be a 240%-270% increase in speed on a quad-core system.

By the way, Vista Business, Enterprise, and Ultimate have a maximum memory capacity of 128GB and Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate have a maximum memory of 192GB.

[cliff collins]

I second the mention of processors, and multi-threading capabilities ( or lack of! )

cheers.......

[Scott D Davis]

Currently Revit is not multi-threaded except for the Mental Ray rendering engine

And at least one other thing in 2010...wall joins are now multi-threaded.

[eviele]

How'd that get in there?


Hello Folks:

So, here is what I settled on:

A Note about Computer Hardware and Operating Systems
If Revit is your primary production application, you may want to consider maximizing your hardware to boost performance. Most computer systems today use 32bit hardware and operating systems (OS). This places the limit on the amount of memory (RAM) that the OS can address. Depending on your current configuration, this will be between 3 and 4 gigabytes maximum. 64bit hardware and operating systems are becoming much more popular in recent years. 64bit Hardware from many manufacturers is available and both Microsoft Windows XP and Vista come in 64bit editions. The 64bit version of Revit is functionally the same as the 32bit version. Users will notice no difference in the interface or function of the product. The primary benefit of the 64bit version is its ability to access significantly more memory than 32bit versions. Many users of 64bit OS have machines with 8 or 16 gigs of RAM. If you frequently work on large projects, it will not be unusual for your Revit models to exceed 200 MB in file size. At some firms, models of 500 MG and larger are not unheard of. (The author has even seen models of nearly 1 gig in size!) If you work on projects with file sizes in this range, the 64bit version is a must.
Using 64bit and having more RAM in your system will give you the following benefits:
• You are able to open and work in larger models
• You can print more Sheets at the Time (this is useful even in small Projects)
• Speed increases of approximately 20% have been reported with very big Models (some reported higher gains)
• Even if you don't realize these speed gains you will not crash large projects on limited RAM.
• More physical RAM reduces the amount of hard disk swapping required.
• You can export more views to AutoCAD at a time.
• Intense operations such as updating Groups will will process faster.
• eviele is an excellent cad manager and a heck of a guy.
Please note that in some cases, not all of your existing software will run properly on 64bit OS. This may be the case for older programs or custom database applications. Check with the program's manufacturer to see if 64bit is supported. While most firms report good compatibility with 64bit systems, be sure that all of your hardware supports it and that printer drivers are available. Also, it is not recommended that you mix Revit 32bit and Revit 64bit on the same project. This can cause problems as the 32bit system runs out of memory and is unable to save the project.


****
Thanks to the following members of the Autodesk User Group International forums for their input on the 64bit version of Revit and 64bit machines: need4mospd, whgeiger1, mruehr, clog boy, Scott Womack, josh.made4worship, Steve_Stafford, swalton.161301, cliff collins, brenehan
_________________________
If anyone has any comments, edits or additions, now is the time....

Thanks.

Just kidding...actually, I was going to point out "You can print more Sheets at the Time"
Should that be you can print more Sheets at a Time?

[Gadget Man]

... If anyone has any comments, edits or additions, now is the time...

Hi there,

Sorry to come so late in a game but I think I have one pretty important addition to make.
It is a derrivative of the amount of available memory (and in a way of a processor speed) but my ONLY reason at the time to switch from 32bit to 64bit architecture was inability to save rendered image in 32bit environment. I am talking about Revit 2009, as I am still waiting with installation of the 2010 version.

After 13 hours of rendering a single image (in the 32bit environment) the only thing I could do to it was look at it on my screen. Revit wouldn't save it. Period. Not even internally within the project and certainly not to an outside file.

To change to a 64bit system (and Revit) first of all I had to upgrade my processor to a faster one (still dual core) and than I increased my memory to 8GB. This allowed me not only to shorten the rendering time (from ~13 hours to ~2 hours on a comparable model and rendering setup) but what's most important to SAVE it at the end. Without 64bit that would NOT be possible.

[paubin]

Seriously? One feature is multi-threaded and the rest of the app is not?

[paubin]

Nice catch. Thanks ;-)

[paubin]

Good point. I have to admit, I have a dual core CPU, but never pay much attention to it. However, I appreciate the info and will be happy to include a paraphrased summary of what you said. How does this sound: (Final draft)

A Note about Computer Hardware and Operating Systems
If Revit is your primary production application, you may want to consider maximizing your hardware and operating system to boost performance. Two important considerations are processor and the amount of random access memory (RAM). Most systems today have dual or quad-core processors. This essentially means the system has two or four processors working in tandem on the same chip. In order to take advantage of such a configuration, an application must be “multi-threaded” which means that it can actually make use of all processor cores. An application that is not multi-threaded will only make use of a single core. The only part of Revit that is currently multi-threaded is the Mental Ray rendering engine. Therefore, most production tasks will see no performance gain from a multiple processor configuration. This actually means that Revit (if not rendering) is faster on a high-end single-core machine than on a multi-core processor machine. However, multi-core machines are often still the best choice because most people run several applications simultaneously and many other programs can utilize all cores simultaneously.
The amount of memory your system has will have a much more direct impact on Revit performance. Most computer systems today use 32bit hardware and operating systems (OS). This places the limit on the amount of RAM that the OS can address. Depending on your current configuration, this will be between 3 and 4 gigabytes maximum. 64bit hardware and operating systems are becoming much more popular in recent years. 64bit Hardware from many manufacturers is available and both Microsoft Windows XP and Vista come in 64bit editions. The 64bit version of Revit is functionally the same as the 32bit version. Users will notice no difference in the interface or function of the product. The primary benefit of the 64bit version is its ability to access significantly more memory than 32bit versions. Many users of 64bit OS have machines with 8 or 16 gigs of RAM, but it can go much higher (128 GB in Vista and 192 GB in Windows 7). If you frequently work on large projects, it will not be unusual for your Revit models to exceed 200 MB in file size. At some firms, models of 500 MG and larger are not unheard of. (The author has even seen models of nearly 1 gig in size!) If you work on projects with file sizes in this range, the 64bit version is a must.
Using 64bit and having more RAM in your system will give you the following benefits:
• You are able to open and work in larger models
• You can print more Sheets at a Time (this is useful even in small Projects)
• Speed increases of approximately 20% have been reported with very big Models (some reported higher gains)
• Even if you don't realize these speed gains you will not crash large projects on limited RAM.
• Large files and renderings will not fail on save.
• More physical RAM reduces the amount of hard disk swapping required.
• You can export more views to AutoCAD at a time.
• Intense operations such as updating Groups will process faster.
Please note that in some cases, not all of your existing software will run properly on 64bit OS. This may be the case for older programs or custom database applications. Check with the program's manufacturer to see if 64bit is supported. While most firms report good compatibility with 64bit systems, be sure that all of your hardware supports it and that printer drivers are available. Also, it is not recommended that you mix Revit 32bit and Revit 64bit on the same project. This can cause problems as the 32bit system runs out of memory and is unable to save the project.

[paubin]

Here is the updated credits. I used your AUGI login unless you put your name in your signature. If anyone prefers to use their real name in the credits, please let me know. If you do not want to post it to the forum, visit my website at: www.paulaubin.com and click the contact link and send me a private email. Please let me know your AUGI ID and how you would like your name to appear. I have to submit this to the publisher by the end of today! So please reply promptly. Thank you all for your assistance!

Thanks to the following members of the Autodesk User Group International forums for their input on the 64bit version of Revit and 64bit machines: need4mospd, whgeiger1, mruehr, clog boy, Scott Womack, josh.made4worship, Steve_Stafford, swalton.161301, cliff collins, brenehan, Jamie Spartz, Cliff B. Collins, Scott Davis, eviele and jetisart