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archjake
2009-05-27, 12:04 AM
Don't have too much time to post this so this post is a bit scattered and in pieces but I feel that we should discuss some of the problems with the software with regard to virtual construction matching real life construction.

I have a nice little project that we may be doing a hands on design-build. As of such I'm trying to create a Revit model that is dead on with regard to how a building is constructed so it can be utilized throughout the bid and construction process. As it stands Revit really isn't up to the challenge. At the moment the largest problems lie with how walls interact with the structure. Without modeling every separate layer of a wall one obvious problem is that they do not know how to interact together properly.
Example: I have a roof set as a rafter type. I have it set to sit on a level. I also have a wall that terminates at that level. The Roof knows that the rafter should have a "birds mouth" and sit on top of the wall. Well where does that birds mouth start for a bearing condition? Revit thinks it starts with the interior finish layer (the most inner face of the wall) which is set outside the core boundary for the wall. Because of this the roof does not model correctly.
Other problems persist at a roofs rake condition. Only the plywood and roofing material should extend past the wall, out to the fascia board. This makes detailing interesting if we try to utilize the model for the majority of detailing.

Extending layers of the wall gets tricky as well. If a ceiling is modeled exactly I have been able to get the inner finish to terminate at that ceiling by attaching the wall to it. Most of the time it does not work correctly.

Setting up a beam system is a pretty slick tool to lay out roof framing but shouldn't we be able to modify how the ends are cut, or have the roof show framing members of the beam system (with ends cut correctly) automatically?

Other interesting items of note is that a section cut longitudinally through a sloping roof presents a roof thickness which is thicker than the actual components. Yes I know this is how a vertical cut through a sloped item truly gets represented but how does that fit in with our detail components and documenting 2D drawings. I don't quite know if this would be considered more correct or a problem. It just gives an interesting dilemma in documentation. In the past I would turn off the view of the model and recreate the detail w/ detail components but it seems that the strength of BIM is that we should have the model as close to reality as possible and then only add as little as required.

I'm sure my next problem will be the sloping slab w/ a curb and footing as I've run into this in the past.

What are others thoughts or comments? :|

cliff collins
2009-05-27, 03:01 PM
Check this out:

http://www.strucsoftsolutions.com/products.asp

cheers................................

Mike Sealander
2009-05-27, 04:30 PM
Cliff:
That Metal-Wood Framer looks pretty neat. But it's continued to bug me that Revit still can't birdsmouth a wall into a roof.

patricks
2009-05-27, 05:26 PM
I don't know what you guys are doing, but I just made a roof, picked walls, specified overhang, and set to Extend to Core. After the roof was finished, the bottom surface of the roof intersected the wall at the outside face of core, because it was set to Truss. I changed the roof type to Rafter and it intersects now at the inside face of core, just as it should.

*edit* if you DO NOT have Extend To Core picked when you sketch the roof (picking walls), then the roof will drop down to the inside finished face when you change it to Rafter type. You must have Extend To Core picked when picking the walls for the roof sketch lines for it to work correctly on the Rafter setting.

archjake
2009-05-27, 08:23 PM
*edit* if you DO NOT have Extend To Core picked when you sketch the roof (picking walls), then the roof will drop down to the inside finished face when you change it to Rafter type. You must have Extend To Core picked when picking the walls for the roof sketch lines for it to work correctly on the Rafter setting.

Thanks Patricks,
That does solve one issue at hand but I'd like to continue the conversation with regard to some of the other issues.

I'll offer another example: If you've ever designed a building with a parapet you will find that modeling the structure correctly is quite difficult. The transition at a roof which is sloping on the back side of a parapet is a tricky modeling problem for Revit. If I were to model this in bits and pieces I'm sure I could cobble something together that would work. But Revit, like the birdsmouth situation should know how to handle this connection. Interior finish should in most cases stop at the ceiling. Studs run up through the structure, a cant strip and flashing above the roof sheathing and then the exterior finish may pick up again and wrap up, over and to the front of the wall. This describes a simple EIFS or stucco and frame wall situation with a built up or membrane low sloped roof. Has anyone modeled this with success? The stacked walls tool is useless as the transition of these walls must remain horizontal. In this case the roof is sloping. So, to do this correctly one would have 3 wall types. A. Slab to ceiling. B. Ceiling to stucco flashing. and C. Exterior finish 2 sides to top of parapet. 3 walls to keep track of and then modeling (I assume in place) a cant strip. How about where this cant strip and flashing slope up and down at cricket situations?

This just shows one more issue in correctly modeling virtual construction with Revit. Don't get me wrong - I am a long time user of Revit and hope to not use anything else but situations like this never get modeled correctly. Revit started as a BIM software that knew how building pieces interact. Now we need to refine these interactions and still be able to break the rules every once in a while.