How often does your Revit crash?

[Joef]

I am getting three or four crashes (Revit 2010) a day and maybe a couple disappearances (Revit simply disappears without a trace and no error report is generated)). Is this what others are experiencing or is this out of the ordinary. Revit 2009 ran just fine on my machines so any problems I am having are not hardware related. Some of my files are called "Project 1 Recovery Recovery Recovery Recovery".

[iankids]

I had a number of crashes with 2010 and reading some others who had similar problems, I decided to mothball 2010 at least until WU1. 2009 64bit no crashes.

Cheers

Ian

[trombe]

Hey Joef,

ha, I feel your pain.
I am persisting with 2010 against commonsense.
I get 2 types of errors regularly, and constantly.
The first one is a fatal program error that initiates the Recovery file creation.
Revit shuts down, the Recovery file option comes up and then after close, the CER dialogue opens. To help the situation, I send 95% of the CER instances.The other 5% just kill me and I don't bother as am too p!#$$%d.

The 2nd message is an individual window draw error.
This is the one where the window contents cannot be drawn and the window closes.
This is also the one where 50% of the time the program does not immediately crash after that, and 50% of the time it will.

I note that the range of functions used at the time of the crash, bridge the divide of normal use and include family editor simple functions - solids, voids, parameters, dimensions, visibility of elements, while project environment functions include about 40% of main range tools and editing functions. So it is not confined to, or consistent with, a small set of activities or a repeated function or task. In fact the range of things being undertaken at time of crash is so diverse that but for the need to go back and try and finish a set task or stage, there could almost be said to be a condition / task reason, for every crash.
So it must be really hard to connect the common crash reason / module, in the journal file segment, with such an array of crash events.


I have now tried a lot of NVidia Quadro drivers !
started with 175.51 which was stable 100 % with Revit 2009- WU-3.
Then went up to : 182.46, then 182.65, and now back to 178.46, which is the AutoDesk recommended driver for AutoCAD 2010 (at this time) and which an AUGI post directed me towards an knowledge base article to use as an indication.

Unfortunately, this has not worked.
My crash regime still revolves around a 30 minute use cycle / range with edges from 20 minutes to 45 minutes. Clearly, there is something radically wrong.
My machine is standalone and has enough RAM for (my) general use.

I note this because I have used 11 or 12 different versions of Revit and the last 3 with the same machine`(2008, 2009, 2010), so don't anyone be suggesting my machine is the problem please.
These crashes appear to me, to be consistent with the sames ones in RAC 2009 + WU-1 and WU-2, which I think were related (in the simplest terms for me) to video memory. Of course, this was with Openl GL based acceleration.

I can be shot down here, but, my conclusion has to be at this stage, that Direct X and Direct 3D implementation is not correct / not working as hoped. I assume this is being addressed now or people are trying really hard to sort it out.
I am sure they will given enough time. When it works out for the periods between crashes, Revit is certainly smoother with 3D Direct on rather than of.

When it is OFF, I find things sluggish and clearly, its rubbish to have to turn it off at all. It needs to be ON otherwise you experience....unsatisfactory performance.
Now how that all works in terms of whether things are supposed to revert to Open GL if 3D Direct is turned OFF, I have no idea (and I actually don't care).
I only know its a pig with it OFF and with it ON, its fast and smooth.

As has been indicated by others, we will have to wait for WU-1 and hope, that they have sorted then...I hope its not far away now..June surely ?

cheers
trombe

[barathd]

Once an hour - no kidding. Xeon processor with12G ram - Quadro FX1700 video card.

[mark.98140]

3 to 4 times a day for me... no particular routine to the crashes... also, revit starts to slow down after a while (memory leak?)..which requires a reboot to resolve or sometimes just a restart of program.

[twiceroadsfool]

Weird. Weve got 5 or 6 people using 2010 all day every day, and so far only 2 machines are demonstrating any crashes at all. Those two have the similarity that the users are stretching Revit all the way across two screens, as well. (Not relocating ribbons and browser, but stretching over two screens).

Those of us staying on one monitor havent had a crash, sans an errant one now and again. (less than once a week).

[sjsl]

I am getting three or four crashes (Revit 2010) a day and maybe a couple disappearances (Revit simply disappears without a trace and no error report is generated)). Is this what others are experiencing or is this out of the ordinary. Revit 2009 ran just fine on my machines so any problems I am having are not hardware related. Some of my files are called "Project 1 Recovery Recovery Recovery Recovery".

Oh Yeah! ts like you read my mind or should I say computer.

[Bill McLees]

Crashes 2 to 3 times a day for me.

Autodesk is blaming my .net installation. I'm updating/reinstalling all the versions of .net as I have time, but so far, no improvement.

Of course, other Autodesk 2010 programs and other company's programs that use .net haven't had any problem.

Bill

[Wes Macaulay]

No crashes on my desktop (FireGL V5100) generally speaking, though I recall having one or two since I started using 2010, while 2009 almost never crashed. And on my laptop (Radeon X1400) I will usually a crash (view closing error, which may cause a crash w/ recovery option) if I run something else graphics-intensive like Google Earth. So I don't run any other OpenGL or DX-based apps while using Revit on my laptop. Both are XP-based. I don't know if Vista is any different...

[ws]

Since switching to the Quadro FX 3800 no crashes in use...

Vista 64 / Corei7 / 12GB / FX 3800 /single monitor (no Nvidia display manager running)

however if I leave the machine running all night the next morning I occasionally see a message saying 'Revit has stopped working' or similar, but I get these in Vista 64 for IE7 also... seems harmless.

[btrusty]

maybe once a day (or every other day)

typically a openGL error

winxp pro sp3, ra2009, core2 6700, 2gb ram, quattro 3450/4000, dual screen
typically when i also have autocad 2009/10 open also.

[M.Poole]

2 or 3 times a day with error message and option to save recovery file, on top of 4 or 5 times a day where Revit 2010 just goes away leaving me staring at my desktop.

You would think that a scarred veteran of AutoCAD R13 would know better than to use any AutoDesk release for production work before it has proved itself to be a stable step forward.

I've had enough and am going back to Revit 2009......I prefer the 2009 GUI anyway.

[dgreen.49364]

Been using 2010 for about 2 weeks now...no crashes. It has been very stable.

I had problems with 2009...it liked to crash from time to time and sometimes it would not open. So far, I am very pleased with the stability of 2010.

[cadclips]

REVIT 2010 32bit, XP Media, on Toshiba Laptop 2 GB RAM, GeForce 6600, Ver. 7.6.7.4. I have only had 2 crashes and they were both memory related with OS 'out of memory' warnings. Now granted I only have 2 GB RAM but there appears to be a memory leak. The longer I leave REVIT open the slower it gets. I also shut down all other app's when using REVIT. I restart my REVIT twice a day to avoid the problem.

[Wes Macaulay]

Hey everyone, for those with crashing problems, please post your video card, driver version, and operating system. That way we can see if there are any trends to all of this.

Thanks!

[ppirtle]

Revit STRUCTURE 2010 - Haven't had a crash, yet.

Dell Computer
CPU: Intel 3GHz
Video: (2) ATI FireGL V7200
RAM: 4Gb

[mark.98140]

Since switching to the Quadro FX 3800 no crashes in use...

Vista 64 / Corei7 / 12GB / FX 3800 /single monitor (no Nvidia display manager running)

however if I leave the machine running all night the next morning I occasionally see a message saying 'Revit has stopped working' or similar, but I get these in Vista 64 for IE7 also... seems harmless.

interesting as this is the same problem i am having... it is a major issue as we cannot leave it on overnight to render... running a nvidia quaddro fx4600... so perhaps there is a conneciton in the cards and the drivers?

[ededios]

No crashes while I'm working, but whenever I exit the program I get an error report saying Revit had to close and the CER thingy opens up. Started using the program as soon as it was available.

Dell Xeon 2.66
XP Pro 64 SP2
4GB
Nvidia FX 4600 on a 30" monitor

(I mention the monitor size as I've had issues with the Options Bar behaving badly, according to support, it's a resolution size with screen size combination issue, I did try a different smaller monitor and it worked fine)

[sjsl]

2010 definitely has a memory leak at least on XP. I have to restart several times a day or I get unexpected crashes from selecting an object, rendering, saving a family, the list goes on and on. No open gl or driect x I won't use them, to unstable.

Having been a beta tester for a couple of different products this definitely looks like a major memory leak.

This will be the last project I start in 2010 until a SP shows up.

[trombe]

Hey everyone, for those with crashing problems, please post your video card, driver version, and operating system. That way we can see if there are any trends to all of this.

Thanks!


Video = NVidia Quadro FX1500 256 Mb PCI Express
video drivers tried : 175.51, 182.46, 182.65, 178.46 (current)
custom machine design
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.67 ghz
RAM 4 Gb DDR II @ 800 mhz
Windows XP Pro 32 bit.

This machine suffers no problems with any other application.
I should not need to buy another video card to suit Revit 2010 when it otherwise has worked for so many previous releases. If this is to be the go, then perhaps the video card could come "free" with every new release of Revit !

trombe. (grrrrrr)

[Exar Kun]

2010 definitely has a memory leak at least on XP. I have to restart several times a day or I get unexpected crashes from selecting an object, rendering, saving a family, the list goes on and on. No open gl or driect x I won't use them, to unstable.

Having been a beta tester for a couple of different products this definitely looks like a major memory leak.

This will be the last project I start in 2010 until a SP shows up.

I get memory leak problems on one machine with the occasional random crash and constant random crashes + memory leak on another.

First machine is:
Q9400
4gig RAM
8800GT

Second machine is:
E6320
2gig RAM
7300GT

Both WinXP Pro 32 bit. Have tried all sorts of drivers for both machines but can see no difference.

We've gone back to starting new projects in 2009 until we get a fix.

[Revit SVA]

We are having major problems with our lower spec machines in the office... one of our Pc even restart itself when running 2010....

This is really bad and we have tried everything from 3 gig switches to Xp variations graphic driver upgrades etc. etc.

And it defnitly aint the spec of the pc as our best pc also crash out but are slightly more stable...

However Autodesk can't expect that their customers must upgrade their pc specs just to run the new software...If i had a company running like that I would also make millions as I would have shares in every little component that needs upgrading!

Please we need SP1 with the issues resolved urgently! - As in yesterday!!!!

[Revit SVA]

Please help!

[ws]

interesting as this is the same problem i am having... it is a major issue as we cannot leave it on overnight to render... running a nvidia quaddro fx4600... so perhaps there is a conneciton in the cards and the drivers?

Curious.

I'll try running a big render overnight to see if I'm having the same issue.

[hand471037]

Only experiencing crashing so far on one machine with 2010, and every time but once it's been when editing rendering materials and having the material render preview refresh itself.

[mmiles]

1 or two a day...usually when editing families (native 2010 families). I notice that sometimes it crashes (with recovery options) when I have lots of views open - which suggests a memory issue. I have also gotten warnings about maxing out on memory while working.

Today, for first time that I can recall, my computer went dead (blue screen) three separate times while working in 2010.

UPDATE:
becoming more unstable. Crashing 3-4 times a day, randomly.

Dell Precision PWS390
Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU
6700 @ 2.66GHz
3.25 GB of Ram (4GBS installed)
Nvidia Quadro FX 46000
Memory Size: 768 MB
Driver version: 6.14.11.8246

[ws]

interesting as this is the same problem i am having... it is a major issue as we cannot leave it on overnight to render... running a nvidia quaddro fx4600... so perhaps there is a conneciton in the cards and the drivers?

I checked this again and if Revit 2010 is left running overnight with no activity, by morning Vista 64 states that 'Revit has stopped working'.

I will report it as a problem.

[trombe]

Hey everyone, for those with crashing problems, please post your video card, driver version, and operating system. That way we can see if there are any trends to all of this.

Thanks!


Yo Wes and everyone else.

Can anyone who is NOT having Revit 2010 crashing problems and DID load the factory DVD build and has a cheap *** video card, tell me which cheap *** video card works fine PLEASE !

It has been suggested I try another video card (I have a Quadro FX1500 256 Mb).

I am not prepared to buy a medium or high end card right now just because Revit 2010 cannot stop the freakin memory leaking out of the driver module, however, I am possibly OK about a $200 (NZ) bottom end card IF, it has a track record with 2010 of NOT crashing at all.

Gee I am getting really p#!!$& off now its taking so long to get things sorted out.
How about a discount on our subscription ?
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
trombe

[Elmo]

Was at a client today with Revit Structure 2010 actually. We were working for not more than 10m before it crashed on us. I would then do it all over again. In the space 2 hours it must have crashed 10 times. This is the first time I have seen Revit crash so many times.

[hand471037]

Experienced lots of crashes the other day when working on a different computer and doing some complex conceptual modeling. Turned off DirectX and it smoothed out and stopped crashing so much. Haven't had that trouble on my laptop when doing similar work, so I'm guessing it's the video card or driver. The laptop is an ATI Radeon X1600 (and is stable) and the workstation is an Nvidia something-or-other (and is not stable).

[barathd]

I read this on the Revit Structural forum and tried it seems to be working. "Do not move the QAT to the bottom position of the toobar". Has anyone else noticed this.

[ws]

Yes, it seemed to me when I was having problems with the Ati FireGL V5600 that moving or customising the QAT led to instability.

However since changing to the Quadro FX 3800 I have moved the QAT down and customised it with no ill effects so far - so it could be a sympton rather than a cause.

[Joef]

I'm not even using the QAT and I've had four crashes this morning. Have posted probably 20 crash reports and haven't heard back so much as a word from Autodesk.

[DO-PRE]

I wasnt even working on my PC....I looked over and it crashed, WTF!

[mark.98140]

i would estimate i crash about 6 - 10 times a day... leave it on overnight and it will certainly crash all on its own... Autodesk... thanks for such a marvellous piece of ****! pay you top dollar, and you give us a beta product! as i have said before... AUTODESK IS JUST ANOTHER MICROSOFT..... SHOW ME THE MONEY. GREED GREED GREED.

[barathd]

Perhaps the helplesss Autodesk could cherp in .... So so bashfull. Set up a chat session ... at Autodesk request a month ago ... time agreed upon ... still no response. Half hearted attempt at damage control.

[Overconstrained]

We're running older spec machines with 2010:

XP
P4 3.40GHz
3gig RAM
Quadro FX 1400

Find it on balance probably more stable than previous releases. Have only had one or two crashes since installation a month or so ago.

Have to qualify that by saying we had to turn off hardware acceleration and anti-aliasing pretty soon after installation as that did cause us problems.

[wommack]

Vista Ultimate 64
i7 920 2.67
ATI Radeon HD4800
2010

6+ crashes a day

[Wes Macaulay]

I have some thoughts about this:

most of this crashing bit is growing pains with DirectX -- despite these pains, I'm convinced that it will eventually be a good move that we won't regret. But 2010 in its initial release clearly wasn't battle-ready. It's possible that the Factory didn't have the problems users are having. What I'm saying is: let's say they didn't know how bad 2010 RTM was going to be w.r.t. crashing (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.)
even if this is the case (that Autodesk didn't expect these stability problems), perhaps people should get a discount on subscription. People expect that Subscription more or less guarantees their access to the latest and greatest. We're paying for those new releases, but not getting them on time, if you will (RTM software is vapourware until SP1). The point of debate is whether Subscription ought to equate to usable software from the time a release goes to market. Should it? Personally, I think Subscription buys the progress the software is making, though admittedly RTM can feel like a giant step backward. I don't get too bent out of shape about this issue: new releases come with so many unknowns; it's pretty hard to tell how your users will [ab]use the new release!I've never seen so much feedback on a release: thread after thread, post after post. I'd guess that the Factory is buried under it all, and I'd also guess that they are hard at work trying to address a mountain of problems to be solved for SP1.

[Joef]

Re: Subscription. If you read the Subscription documents you will notice that updates and new releases are not part the agreement.

[trombe]

I have some thoughts about this:

most of this crashing bit is growing pains with DirectX -- despite these pains, I'm convinced that it will eventually be a good move that we won't regret. But 2010 in its initial release clearly wasn't battle-ready. It's possible that the Factory didn't have the problems users are having. What I'm saying is: let's say they didn't know how bad 2010 RTM was going to be w.r.t. crashing (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.)
even if this is the case (that Autodesk didn't expect these stability problems), perhaps people should get a discount on subscription. People expect that Subscription more or less guarantees their access to the latest and greatest. We're paying for those new releases, but not getting them on time, if you will (RTM software is vapourware until SP1). The point of debate is whether Subscription ought to equate to usable software from the time a release goes to market. Should it? Personally, I think Subscription buys the progress the software is making, though admittedly RTM can feel like a giant step backward. I don't get too bent out of shape about this issue: new releases come with so many unknowns; it's pretty hard to tell how your users will [ab]use the new release!I've never seen so much feedback on a release: thread after thread, post after post. I'd guess that the Factory is buried under it all, and I'd also guess that they are hard at work trying to address a mountain of problems to be solved for SP1.

Wes,
you are like Voltaire - the voice of reason and placation.....lol.
I am almost ready to eat humble pie on 2010 in terms of the ribbon although I still think its in need of a lot of development and tweaking and I still hate chasing toolbars around, but am learning new tricks, so what the heck.

The issue with subscription or indeed product release in terms of what you suggest is not being aware of the level of abuse ? users can give Revit......mate, you are super respected dude her, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt (LOL) and assume you had a good night last night.............Revit has been out in the current owners hands for what 7 years ?....11 ? releases (or is it 10 ?) ? plus in 09, 3 builds......it is well known what users do with the product and particularly due to Beta testing...I can't buy that bit about not quite sure what the market will do with it.....

And the bit about subscription paying for development....lmao......its like the consolidated fund the NZ government run.. a pool of money.......not the money coming from this source or that will go into developing this or that...its just money in the pot...how its split up will be unrelated to popularity !!

Probably true from a fundamentalist perspective that user will pay for development but not a Revit user paying only for Revit development....
For me its about allowing a product out the door before it was ready and clearly, it is not.
This is a great shame because the user deserves better.


Anyway, looking around various posts, there seems to be problems with ATI Radeon cards, NVidia cards and to a lesser extent, ATI Fire Gel cards. It seems that no brand is immune and while there are a few models on machines that feature few or almost no crashes, we still have not seen enough of a sample to form a fair picture.

So far it seems, the issue crosses brand, range and model with ATI and NVidia being the primary video card manufacturing brands ( presumably along with LeadTek, PNY etx. etc branded things like the NVidia Quadro range).
I cannot tell if there are any particular properties of this card or that which are symptomatic of problems with using Direct 3D / Direct X other than when looking at certain models, you can see that this one has Direct X10 and this one has Direct X 9c.

Presumably, people go back to Microsoft to see if there is an update for Direct X 9c that could help (actually at there is a March 23 2009 update if anyone has not already got it - but it failed to make an improvement anyway).
Can anyone report that having a system with Direct X10 is able to be benchmarked against a 9c version resulting in no issues ? Presumably this has already been done ?

Similarly, it affects 32 bit and 64 bit systems so the Direct X10 thing might be of little relevance.
enough already, just give us a fix.
trombe

[Wes Macaulay]

Heh -- Voltaire is one of my favourite characters, except he needed to get in touch with his rage more :beer:


Re: Subscription. If you read the Subscription documents you will notice that updates and new releases are not part the agreement.
Oh ya -- tis well known... but when you're ponying up to the big A, you feel entitled to the purported benefits of Subscription straightaway. Hence the huge frustrations among users these last few weeks...

I've got all our Radeons working well with Revit 2010 and earlier provided I use a late version of the Catalyst 8 series of drivers; the Radeons sometimes crash a view if you've been working in another app that uses hardware acceleration (like Google Earth or Adobe Reader). Adesk tested the 8.11 drivers; I've been using the 8.12 driver series around here. The FireGL cards in our office are working better than the Radeons (no crashes at all) using the latest 8.583 drivers.

[cphubb]

We are experiencing a few more crashes with 2010 than 2009. I also suspect its the video drivers.

I am getting fairly consistent crashing when using a Projector. Much less crashing on a higher resolution monitor.

I have moved the QAT to under the Ribbon. I will move it back and see if its any better.

My partner has same computer and same install. He has not moved his QAT and has had fewer crashes.

I have noticed more crashing editing families than just using Revit.

I have worked with Hardware accel and off. No appearant difference.

Revit is much faster and cleaner with accel on than off

Dell Latitude D820
Intel T2400 1.83 Dual Core
4gb RAM
Nvidia NVS 110M 256 mb Ram
Windows XP 32

[cliff collins]

Have not yet crashed on RAC 2010 64 bit.

WinXP Pro 64
8 GB Ram
Quad Intel CPU

cheers.......

[barathd]

Have moved the QAT back to top - no crashes for several days. Huge improvement to past - couple crashes per HOUR.

[NKramer]

No crashes or significant memory leaks yet. I have seen some memory used up and lost (ie memory leak) when working heavily on a project over a long period of time but its generally the same as 09.

When in XP you can minimize the program to dump this to swap and clear up Ram. Apparently this doesn't work in Vista (haven't tried) and would be a bad idea on 32 bit as the dumped memory still contributes to Windows 3gb kill limit. It can have long term consequences though depending on how much swap you have and what memory is being dumped in there (ie if it dumps what you are using -3d views- it may take a while to reopen the window and that memory is pulled back out of swap)

Has anyone seen any relation between the crashing and 32 vs 64 bit?

Nick

Dell Precision M6300
Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 @ 2.50ghz
8gb RAM
Nvidia Quadro FX 1600M
Windows XP Pro 64

PS: In general this video card sucks. It doesn't remember where things are placed so when I use the computer at home (1 monitor) and then at work (2 monitors) it refreshes about 6 times and icons go all over the place... sometimes even completely off screen.

[andrewharle]

So what's the verdict? Move over to Revit 2010 or stick with 2009 for now? Or is it just what video card you have?

Any advice?

[MRV]

I wouldn't upgrade anything at this time without careful thought, wait for the update. Maybe start a new project or two in 2010 to start getting used to the new interface, and see how well your computers are going to work out. Leave your legacy projects alone, unless you are a glutton for punishment.

[trombe]

I read this on the Revit Structural forum and tried it seems to be working. "Do not move the QAT to the bottom position of the toobar". Has anyone else noticed this.

barathd....
UNBELIEVABLE can I just thank you for bringing this to my attention - if I see you I owe you a couple of beers or whatever your poison is.
After seeing this on Friday June 12 in the morning, I moved the QAT to the top of my title bar from where it has been from default installation

You can see from my many posts about Revit 2010, that I have had Revit crash on me, from between 20 to 40 minutes EVERY time, with an average of about 30 minutes EVERY time, for the last MONTH of use from the first week of May and between testing and use on weekends also, this has been a f$#%&@& PIA.

My "support request" has reached a dead end with AutoDesk failing to reply to my queries about progress and their inability to re-create the problems I have been having FOR A MONTH ! I have had a feakin gutsful of the problems.

Since moving the QAT up to the top of the program window / title bar, Revit has not crashed !! That is about 8 hours of use.
Early days true, but it is so significant that I can't ignore the apparent change.
Sure hope it stays like this.
I am going to wait a while to see how things go before telling the support technician at AD because he has not been much use nor willing to reply to my queries so....

Thanks barathd - your information has changed my work day (so far)
best
trombe

[barathd]

Trombe:

I have not had a crash for a week or so - beyond me why Autodesk does not acknowledge the problem. Good to hear it works for you. It's someone on the structural forum you need to thank not me - thats where I found the reference. I would welcome the beer - if your ever in Canada ...

Regards

Dick Barath

[mark.98140]

sorry, but the QAT doesn't seem to be the issue for me... so I will have to wait for some factory fix...factory... any times for the patch release version of the software?

[barathd]

I was pulling the hair out of my head before I found my fix. What I found strange was that during Beta I had no problems. This has got to be the absolute worst release (for a million reasons) Autodesk has ever had. Heads should roll. When automatic upgrades with no backward compatability (Autodesk subscription) are forced upon you this is neither ethical nor probably legal.

[Wes Macaulay]

Actually Dick -- the Factory may not be aware of this problem with the QAT. Someone would have to report this behaviour in a support request if in fact the Factory has not experienced this issue internally.

Since it's common for developers to just use and test the software as-is (without changing anything in the UI) it's likely that the Factory is oblivious to this problem.

[bdorsey.189306]

We have two people in our office that crash 4-5 times a day, sometime with no notice. Some of the crashes occur when the ribbon starts going crazy with major graphic issues, which is strange because we have one of newest video cards. I have reported many Revit 2010 issues already to Autodesk regarding this and other issues such as revit just losing our network license from time to time, and other dealing with families from 2009 not upgrading properly. I have had a negative review so far with this new 2010 release, hopefully they can get this under control soon, because it really is hurting our work production in our office.

[NKramer]

I have reported many Revit 2010 issues already to Autodesk regarding this and other issues such as revit just losing our network license from time to time, ...

This could be related to an "upgrade" in the FlexLM server. That or a disparity between FlexLM and Revit 2010 depending on how you want to look at it. Basically FlexLM has a timeout for when a computer crashes and doesn't relinquish a license properly, then after a set time the license is released back to the server. This has been around for quite a long time without any major issues. When you leave your computer idle for longer than the timeout period it relinquishes the license back to the server. In previous products when you go back to work the program pings back to the server to pull a new license. If you are out of licenses or it cant find one you get the option to save or exit. In 2010 it drops the license and then says, "Oh to bad I figured you were done, so no more license for you. You don't mind not being able to save right?"

This is a known issue and the reason that many large firms are not or cannot make the upgrade to 2010. For now you can set your FlexLM timeout to a ridiculously long time (I think the max is somewhere around 30-36 hours) or just check out licenses to the people who are using 2010.

So until this is resolved no 2010 deployment (at least en mass) for us.

Nick

[William Troeak]

I was experiencing crashes about ever 45 minutes or so...until I read this post this morning about the QAT.

I had my QAT below the Ribbon, but then this morning moved it above. And now no crashing all day, about 6.5 hours now.

[trombe]

I was experiencing crashes about ever 45 minutes or so...until I read this post this morning about the QAT.

I had my QAT below the Ribbon, but then this morning moved it above. And now no crashing all day, about 6.5 hours now.

Ha !
congratulations, I really know what you have been going through..I have had no crashes since last Friday morning (June 12) when I moved the QAT.
I'll tell you this also, the AD product support technician, did not reply to 2 e-mails I sent asking about progress. Also, they were of no value to my problem - they could not help and clearly did not know what to say.
The only suggestion they have for me during a month of daily problems was to try a new video card, but of course, offered no brand or model and would not respond to my query about which one.

On the one hand, pretty tough for them to figure some of this out...we must use about 50 different video cards between us all across two to three brands, but then, it turns out the video card is not the (biggest ?) problem ! doh.
That is pretty damn slack service and given the idea that there is a new version out for more than month yet the commercial main player firms are unable / unwilling to upgrade, makes it a lot worse overall in the scheme of subscription payments etc. ......for smaller operators its just a PIA big time, but for the commercial firms, it must be questioning value for money time.

Happy you have managed to find a solution to your problem as I have.
Pity this is not a useful solution for everyone.

trombe.


Oh well, it did last nearly a week until falling over again....still no word from product support......

[Rick Moore]

I wiped my drive and re-installed last week because I was crashing frequently, not just in Revit. My suspicion was a driver conflict somewhere. Since then I haven't crashed Revit yet and my very long QAT is under the ribbon.

[jcoe]

Third crash this morning and its only 9am. The first crash just exited Revit while the other two created a recovery file.

I have tried the QAT approach others have discussed, and I still crash 3-4 times a day. This bites. I find myself saving more than producing.

Our office purchased 16 brand new computers with NVIDIA Quatro FX 570 video cards SCSI hard disks for faster processing just so we could start some new projects on 2010. If we cannot work in the software long enough to reap the benefits of the new computers, then this will turn out to be a poor ROI.

[gwnelson]

Mine has been rock solid - until yesterday afternoon in a "gotta get this done" crunch. Crashed twice, can't remember exactly why but both time very innocuous actions on my part. Submitted BS report to Adesk.

[jcoe]

Just did a fresh install of the software...BAM! Within 10 min, had another crash. How do I log this onto my timesheet. Do you think Autodesk will reimburse my employer for lost time?

[twiceroadsfool]

Jason-

Is Direct3D on, and anti-aliasing in 3d views? Which video card DRIVERS are you using? Its been my experience "latest and most up to date drivers" are often NOT the ones you want to be using with Revit.

Its running on several machines down here without incident at all... Except on most machines we turned off Direct 3D. My machine was running perfectly with Direct3D, except with one project that has a few DWG imports. So for now, i disabled it.

As for being reimbursed for lost time... Maybe we should all stop answering each others posts for help, since were all perpetuating the "lost time" by sitting on AUGI...

[cphubb]

Anecdotely since moving hte QAT above the Ribbon, No crashes, not a single one.

Now for the Acid test. I will move it back down for a few days and see what changes. If it starts crashing I'll let eveyone including Adesk know.

[jcoe]

Jason-

Is Direct3D on, and anti-aliasing in 3d views? Which video card DRIVERS are you using? Its been my experience "latest and most up to date drivers" are often NOT the ones you want to be using with Revit.

We have been using Direct3D with anti-aliasing turned off. I could not tell you if our video card drivers are the latest or not, because IT did the computer set up. The driver we are using is 6.14.11.8246 for the FX 570.

The software has stabilized for the past 1.5 hours, but I am also saving every 10 minutes.

[twiceroadsfool]

I think the QAT may cause some peoples crashing, but its not a concrete answer. Mine has been below the Ribbon since inception, with no consistant issues.

Jason: Im sure you know this, but if IT is just loading whatever driver they want on there, youre going to continue to have problems. For EVERY version of Revit we sit there with the video cards and find a driver that seems to be stable (thanks largely to Wes's posts here, LOL), and then when were comfortable we have one, we make THAT driver the standard for that video card.

Ill bet dollars to donuts thats the problem. People have to stop assuming the newest and greatest is going to work for them...

[dubaiperth]

We had a team of 10 sharing a large very large complex project (150mb+ and growing) in the middle east - up to 10 crashes a day at the end and almost zero productivity.

We are trailing 2010 on a 64 bit machine and so far all good. Constant saves to Central and at least 2 restarts per day the only way to reach some stability.

Half the team ex archicad wishing we could go back- and yes we have completed very large projects in archicad but this project has found the limits of the software/hardware combination

I am now back in Perth working on part of the project as my own local and things much better - I get memeory warnings but can catch them

Harry
Dell/Dual Core Intel/4 Gig/NVIDIA Quadra FX 1700

[Joef]

Revit is still crashing, though now it is just disappearing without a trace. No warning no recovery.

[samov]

HP 8710W quadro fx 1600m mobile workstation

crashes every 1 hour or so tried almost every driver from HP... then from nvidia's website... NO GO

manually updated to a dell m6300 ISV certified driver... ALL ISSUES ARE FIXED :D no crashes for about 4 days.

http://support.euro.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=ro&l=ro&s=gen&releaseid=R189052&SystemID=PREC_M6300&servicetag=&os=WLH&osl=en&deviceid=15062&devlib=0&typecnt=0&vercnt=3&catid=-1&impid=-1&formatcnt=1&libid=6&fileid=259103

[jj mac]

For anyone using Windows Vista x64:

Have you tried to disable the OOTB Vista performance options? By default, it is set up for "best appearance".

I have recently changed it for "best permormance" and it basically disables all the Vista graphics.

We are trying everything to get this to stop crashing... If you have a chance to try it or if you have tried it with success or not, please let me know. There has to be a way to stop this insanity. There has to be.

Please see attached:

[Wes Macaulay]

HP 8710W quadro fx 1600m mobile workstation

crashes every 1 hour or so tried almost every driver from HP... then from nvidia's website... NO GO

manually updated to a dell m6300 ISV certified driver... ALL ISSUES ARE FIXED :D no crashes for about 4 days.

http://support.euro.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=ro&l=ro&s=gen&releaseid=R189052&SystemID=PREC_M6300&servicetag=&os=WLH&osl=en&deviceid=15062&devlib=0&typecnt=0&vercnt=3&catid=-1&impid=-1&formatcnt=1&libid=6&fileid=259103

This might be the ugliest driver workaround ever :)

But whatever works, eh!

[jlinger]

Relatively stable with combinations of graphics acceleration on/off and the QAT above the ribbon. Where we are experiencing severe issues is with the Print command. Click Print, and Bam. Change the Print setup, and Bam. Most of the time there is a recovery error option, sometimes it will shut down Revit without an error warning. Struggle through a few crashes and it will work. Until next time. It started on one machine and has slowly worked its way around. I've tried to figure out rhyme or reason, (drivers, printers etc) but I'm not finding much of a pattern. Anyone else had a similar experience/solution?

[samov]

For anyone using Windows Vista x64:

Have you tried to disable the OOTB Vista performance options? By default, it is set up for "best appearance".

I have recently changed it for "best permormance" and it basically disables all the Vista graphics.

We are trying everything to get this to stop crashing... If you have a chance to try it or if you have tried it with success or not, please let me know. There has to be a way to stop this insanity. There has to be.

Please see attached:

That setting will not do anything for your! :) What video card do you use?

[jj mac]

We are using a variety of NVidia gpu's... Some computers have an FX1700 , some have the card you are using... Some have NV290... It depends on what Dell had compatible with the CPU at the time of purchase.

We have tried updating / or rolling back the drivers to the Autodesk tested and Dell recommended drivers, however Revit was still crashing, and it was crashing on multiple computers, on different files.

We have diligently ran through all file "clean up" procedures recommended by Autodesk and our Reseller, then checked to verify the correct driver was installed, and Revit still crashes.Update

That's why I am asking if anyone has TRIED or NOT tried this... If they CAN try it and report it maybe we can POSSIBLY find a common denominator here.

As was mentioned a few posts back, there does not seem to be any common ground at all surrounding this issue, however I find it pretty interesting that you have been able to solve the problem based on the procedure you posted. If it's not crashing on you anymore that's a really good thing... However from what I can see, all you did was update your driver. (Please correct me if I am wrong). That's not working for us.

How do you know this setting has nothing to do with the problem... I am all ears. : ) If this work around doesn't work, I will be sure to post an update to indicate so.

Update - June 22, 2008 @ 4:52pm EST

Turns out we continued to crash this afternoon, so it's safe to assume adjusting performance settings does not make a difference.

[jamesd10181097]

What is the QAT?

[ws]

Quick Access Toolbar - you can add your own icons to it by right clicking any top level command icon.

[jamesd10181097]

thanks,
so moving it to below the ribbon has helped for several people. I will give that a try.

I have been crashing about every 15 minutes or so.

Using an HP Compaq dc5800 with core 2 Duo E8400 @ 3.00 GHz, 1.97 GHz and 2 GB ram Video is Intel Q33 Express Chipset with 384 MB of ram

I have the most up to date drivers and have configured windows Xp's settings per the Revit Model Technical Note

[samov]

See the link below.
The problem are your nvidia hardware drivers. You should search for a WHQL and top certification driver.

See the link below.
It contains a stable driver. You should be able to manually install it and try it out. I've found it to be the only stable driver, for my hardware, to date. You can modify the inf to install on your hardware.

http://support.euro.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=ro&l=ro&s=gen&releaseid=R189071&SystemID=PREC_M6300&servicetag=&os=WV64&osl=EN&deviceid=15062&devlib=0&typecnt=0&vercnt=2&catid=-1&impid=-1&formatcnt=1&libid=6&fileid=258958

and the already modified driver (most certainly will work on laptops) both for Vista X64 (sp1 and sp2) also works on Windows 7 RC1

http://rapidshare.de/files/47644532/R189071_nvidia_mobility_modded_driver_from_dell_m6300.rar.html


HP 8710W quadro fx 1600m mobile workstation

crashes every 1 hour or so tried almost every driver from HP... then from nvidia's website... NO GO

manually updated to a dell m6300 ISV certified driver... ALL ISSUES ARE FIXED :D no crashes for about 4 days.

http://support.euro.dell.com/support/downloads/download.aspx?c=ro&l=ro&s=gen&releaseid=R189052&SystemID=PREC_M6300&servicetag=&os=WLH&osl=en&deviceid=15062&devlib=0&typecnt=0&vercnt=3&catid=-1&impid=-1&formatcnt=1&libid=6&fileid=259103


We are using a variety of NVidia gpu's... Some computers have an FX1700 , some have the card you are using... Some have NV290... It depends on what Dell had compatible with the CPU at the time of purchase.

We have tried updating / or rolling back the drivers to the Autodesk tested and Dell recommended drivers, however Revit was still crashing, and it was crashing on multiple computers, on different files.

We have diligently ran through all file "clean up" procedures recommended by Autodesk and our Reseller, then checked to verify the correct driver was installed, and Revit still crashes.Update

That's why I am asking if anyone has TRIED or NOT tried this... If they CAN try it and report it maybe we can POSSIBLY find a common denominator here.

As was mentioned a few posts back, there does not seem to be any common ground at all surrounding this issue, however I find it pretty interesting that you have been able to solve the problem based on the procedure you posted. If it's not crashing on you anymore that's a really good thing... However from what I can see, all you did was update your driver. (Please correct me if I am wrong). That's not working for us.

How do you know this setting has nothing to do with the problem... I am all ears. : ) If this work around doesn't work, I will be sure to post an update to indicate so.

Update - June 22, 2008 @ 4:52pm EST

Turns out we continued to crash this afternoon, so it's safe to assume adjusting performance settings does not make a difference.

[AP23]

4-5 crashes an hour. We generally don't rename the recovery file untill the end of the day. It's now 11:50 and we have a file called DBH(Recovery) (Recovery) (Recovery) (Recovery) (Recovery) (Recovery) (Recovery) (Recovery).rvt. This just shows how severe the situation is.

BTW, I have a NVIDIA Quadro FX 4600 card. I'll try updating it and see if there is any improvements.

[William Troeak]

So for me moving the QAT to the top worked. But that was for my personal laptop.

Now I have a question (maybe I missed the answer in previous post) but is there anyone out there that teachs at the College or re-seller level? If so have you experianced any problems?

We will be installing Revit Architecture 2010 next week at the college and am just a little worried that this problem may come up.

The install will be on new computers, once I have the specs I will post it here so maybe we can see if it is a video card issue.

Thanks,

[dfdesign]

Thought i would offer something i read: Internet Explorer 8 causes problems for Revit and Autodesk recommends rolling back to Explorer 7 or 6. Maybe that's part of the pattern here.

[dzevad]

crashes every 5 mins here..........
XP 64 bit with all updates installed and all newest drivers

this is just terrible!!!!
and when they tell me disabling directX acceleration might be the solution......gee, is there any end to their sauce?

[samov]

Hello everyone,

Seems my latest fix for my Quadro 1600M was not quite so successful after all. After quite some time without crashes it crashed AGAIN, while switching between views.

I did some more digging around and after having nice advice from Autodesk support.

BEHOLD:

NVIDIA Partner Certified Drivers (Autodesk is in the list too)

http://www.nvidia.com/page/partner_certified_drivers.html (http://www.nvidia.com/page/partner_certified_drivers.html)

I had to install the 162.65_quadro_winvista_64bit_english_whql driver.... it is "old" BUT it does seem to work ok so far....

I will keep you posted.
----------------------------------------------------------------

POST 1

I'm back ... it crashed again BUT this time with a different error...
Did some quick searches... apparently a "Recent Files" window issue with IE 8.
I actually like IE 8 so i disabled the "Recent Files" from Revit Menu -> Options -> Enable Recent Files Paga on Startup.

More on this here:

http://revitclinic.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/05/crashing-on-the-recent-files-page.html

[hand471037]

One of our systems here had IE8 on it, and did have occasional crashes. We removed IE8, and it seems more stable. YMMV, but I'd recommend removing IE8 or turning off Recent Files for the time being.

SEEK seems to work fine with Chrome of us, but we're not iDropping anything. We always open the Family first and check it out prior to importing it. So we're running Chrome or Firefox on all Windows machines now, and no IE at all.

[J. Grouchy]

I'm getting a "Black Screen of Death" when panning/zooming...the view basically inverting and turning all the white to black and vise versa. This causes the view to be shut down and eventually leads to Revit crashing altogether.

[ws]

I don't know if it is significant but it might be worth a try if Revit 2010 is crashing on you.

I have not had a single crash since installing a Quadro FX 3800 card just after 2010 was released...

until today when Revit 2010 was crashing every 10 minutes and offering to save my data etc...

So what had I changed over the weekend?

I had enabled the steering wheel - I must have disabled it just after I installed 2010.

Disable the steering wheel (click the cross top left of the floating toolbar)...

Result - no crashes so far - seems to be back to its stable self.

Might be a coincidence but just thought I would mention it.

[haldier7]

I had the similar problem as mentioned by Grouchy. It was very frustating. Now having provided with a Graphics card NVIDIA GeForce7300, no crashing problem so far.

[jj mac]

POST 1

I'm back ... it crashed again BUT this time with a different error...
Did some quick searches... apparently a "Recent Files" window issue with IE 8.
I actually like IE 8 so i disabled the "Recent Files" from Revit Menu -> Options -> Enable Recent Files Paga on Startup.

More on this here:

http://revitclinic.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/05/crashing-on-the-recent-files-page.html

Hey samov, did the combo of the manually installed driver, and IE8 off your system help out, or are you still crashing...?

[gwnelson]

Installed WU1 yesterday & ran for about 3 hours today, just crashed while simply adding some values to family types.

[hermeytheelf]

Revit Arch 2010
Windows XP Pro 32bit
HP Compaq 8710 mobile workstation
4gb ram, 3gb switch enabled (rolled back slightly for video card)
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1600M, Driver version 6.14.11.163

At least a couple of times a day. Usually no warning, just POOF! I have looked at the journals but can't make sense of them. Just installed WU1 today so we will see. Sometimes I get the popup to send a report to Autodesk. The last time that happened earlier today they sent me back a 'hotfix' for 2009 AutoCAD products - http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=11783277&linkID=9240618

WTF?

Oh, yeah, I got a blue screen of death yesterday too. This was shortly after one of my views in Revit inverted to black (see attached png). My computer was spitting out errors about wireless drivers (wireless was not in use) and the 'Surf Control Mobile Filter' application told me that an attempt was being made to hack into it?!?!?

[Paul Monsef]

Maybe once a month. I was thinking of installing xp x64, instead of running vista, for performance issues. But, I never crash and as soon as I change something I'll be doomed to a perpetual life of crashing.

Dual Quad Core Intel Xeon Processors X5365 - 3.00GHz
16 GB DDR2 ECC SDRAM 667MHz
768MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 4600
Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit

Revit Architecture 2010
3ds MAX Design 2010

[hand471037]

Maybe once a month. I was thinking of installing xp x64, instead of running vista, for performance issues. But, I never crash and as soon as I change something I'll be doomed to a perpetual life of crashing.

We're running XP64 here. We're not having issues with constant crashing (once we uninstalled IE8). I, too, only get about a crash a month, and it's 90% of the time when editing render materials and previewing. On the six gig dual Xeon machine it's rock solid so far, with no crashes at all, even when running several sessions of Revit and rendering in different sessions at the same time.

[iankids]

For me, WU1 is a step backwards.

WU1 has crashed 4 times in eight hours work.

Model elements (walls, doors, windows) simply disappear if hardware acceleration is on, only to reappear when one saves. (Maybe its a hint to save frequently )

Previously 2010 was pretty stable on my machine which runs an ATI video card. Maybe in fixing up whatever were the issues with Nvidia they have inadvertently messed up ATI cards!?!


Ian

[Bill McLees]

I don't guess WU1 helped or hurt me. Revit still crashes multiple times per day. So far, no help from support.

Bill

[bulletproofdesign]

I've only had 1 crash so far

trombe, I have been using nVidias 185.20 driver. Mainly because it was the only one I could get to run on my laptop.

Funny thing. I am running WinXP Pro 64-bit on a Qosmio G50 Laptop. Toshiba tells me I can't install XP. There are no video drivers, so I had to recompile my own. Alot of the device drivers are vista64 msi files hacked with orca and installed anyway.

Guess what. This thing runs fine. RAC2010 runs like a dream. The DirectX problems I am encountering (I assume they are directx based) are onscreen refresh issues (grey wireframes not disappearing till other activity) and the annoying hidden control issue (with line weights on, and zoomed in, endpoint/midpoint handles seem hidden behind the lines....)

So it must your systems.... For a small fee, I can come and hack up you OS and it as unusually dodgy as mine!!

Peace

[iankids]

For me, WU1 is a step backwards.

WU1 has crashed 4 times in eight hours work.

Model elements (walls, doors, windows) simply disappear if hardware acceleration is on, only to reappear when one saves. (Maybe its a hint to save frequently )

Previously 2010 was pretty stable on my machine which runs an ATI video card. Maybe in fixing up whatever were the issues with Nvidia they have inadvertently messed up ATI cards!?!


Ian


Update:

As it turns out, the problem wasn't with Revit but rather an incompatibility issue between WU1 and an early version of RevPac1 (Revit app - see http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=103065). Once had had uninstalled RevPac1 V16 and install the current build V17 (V18 due out soon), everything was back to normal.

Cheers,


Ian

[bulletproofdesign]

That all depends if you are ready for the learning curve... I am finding RAC2010 more stable than most, by the sounds of it.

The main change for me is the learning curve, and seems to be the main gripe, changing the interface..

Install 2010.... test it on some old projects..... See if it opperates at an acceptable level....

Just don't take advise from forums!!

LOL

[bulletproofdesign]

Okay....

As I have a toshiba laptop, with a nVidia GeForce 9600. It appears that toshiba don't pay for testing on many driver builds, so there are very few updates for the drivers to this laptop. If I manually download them, the installer informs me that I don't have compatible hardware. I visited http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/ and found utilities for pulling apart the nVidia installer, and pull out the 'list' of 'acceptable' hardwares. Now my 9600 is working fine, and I am not having any issues, hardware acceleration on, no probs....

Dunno if there is any link, just in case, I leaving for ewe message...

[hand471037]

As I have a toshiba laptop, with a nVidia GeForce 9600. It appears that toshiba don't pay for testing on many driver builds, so there are very few updates for the drivers to this laptop.

I have to wonder if this has something to do with the stability of 2010 we've experienced here so far. We are either running Revit in Parallels or Boot Camp, both of which use well-tested and well-made video drivers.

[trombe]

I've only had 1 crash so far

trombe, I have been using nVidias 185.20 driver. Mainly because it was the only one I could get to run on my laptop.

Funny thing. I am running WinXP Pro 64-bit on a Qosmio G50 Laptop. Toshiba tells me I can't install XP. There are no video drivers, so I had to recompile my own. Alot of the device drivers are vista64 msi files hacked with orca and installed anyway.

Guess what. This thing runs fine. RAC2010 runs like a dream. The DirectX problems I am encountering (I assume they are directx based) are onscreen refresh issues (grey wireframes not disappearing till other activity) and the annoying hidden control issue (with line weights on, and zoomed in, endpoint/midpoint handles seem hidden behind the lines....)

So it must your systems.... For a small fee, I can come and hack up you OS and it as unusually dodgy as mine!!

Peace


BPD...

generally now, RAC 2010 is stable since the QAT got moved to the top of the screen.
At this date, I have downloaded WU-1, however, I am not running it because I just don't trust the deal on it yet....gun shy now.
Now the main crash problems have all but gone (for now), I am OK about 2010 otherwise. Its a shame to see that individuals can come up with excellent UI tweaks far quicker than the manufacturer is prepared to make (although, all power to the RevPac man - he deserves a DB ! , or whatever).
trombe.

[patricks]

Well I have been running the QAT below the ribbon and I probably have the steering wheel turned on at the right side of the screen. I'll make some changes tomorrow and see how it goes.

[dgillespie]

I may have figured out what was wrong, at least for me anyway.

My Video Card: Nvidia Quadro FX 4600, newest driver (June 10th, I think)
WinXP Pro 64bit
Ribbon is minimized to the "Minimize to Panel Tiles" setting.

After installing 2010 WU1, I tried moving the QAT to the top of the screen as some have suggested, but Revit still kept crashing. The crashes were around 10-20 times a day before and after the WU1 install.

However, two days ago I turned off all tooltips. The crashing only [knocking on wood/fingers crossed] happens once a day at most. Don't know if this is the absolute answer, but I'll repost if I start crashing again. Sorry if someone else already figured this out.

[aaronrumple]

There has to be big memory issues in 2010.

I was working on a family - only 316 Kb in size. No other software up - Outlook even closed. I had only this one file up and only one window open the whole time. Revit chewed up all the memory. Save and exit and memory is back. Just running Revit seems to chew it it. I've never run out of memory - even on projects where I have 2000+ slot machines all with very high levels of detail.

Revit died shortly after the screen capture.

[patricks]

2010 doesn't chew memory at all on my machine. XP Pro 32-bit 4GB RAM w/ 3GB switch.

Graphic hardware acceleration is off, though, due to random crashing if I turn it on.

[patricks]

Actually as I sit here staring at my Task Manager Performance tab, available physical memory is actually increasing LOL... this is with 2010 open, as well as Outlook, WinAmp (streaming internet music), Firefox, and QuickBooks (company accounting/timesheet software) all open at the same time.

[aaronrumple]

Actually as I sit here staring at my Task Manager Performance tab, available physical memory is actually increasing LOL... this is with 2010 open, as well as Outlook, WinAmp (streaming internet music), Firefox, and QuickBooks (company accounting/timesheet software) all open at the same time.

Consider yourself lucky. I'm sitting here with Tooltips off. QAT at top of screen. Acceleration off. No shadows. One small file open. I'm not doing a thing with Revit.

I'll need to get a video camera. I'm watching the memory tick up like a clock. Looks like about 4K a second. for the page file. 44K physical memory per second.

Closed down the active project and Revit returns the memory at the same rate it was using it. Open a file - back to eating it up. Close Revit. PF Memory is flushed. Physical memory flushes part and then marches on returning 44K at a time.

[patricks]

So does yours eventually crash even while not doing anything? Mine has crashed a total of one time in the past week at home, and none at work, with acceleration off.

[ws]

No help but just to say that I've been monitoring my memory for the past 40 minutes while working on Revit 2010 and Photoshop CS4 on Vista 64 with 12GB ram (and the swap file disabled).

Revit initially was using 3.5GB - probably as a result of being left to do a render - but this has fallen back to 1.5GB while I've been switched over to Photoshop and seems to be staying at 1.5GB

I tried opening the Family Editor and memory usage crept up a little but then fell back also.

This memory usage is pretty consistent with what I have seen in 2009 when I checked earlier this year.

[aaronrumple]

So does yours eventually crash even while not doing anything? Mine has crashed a total of one time in the past week at home, and none at work, with acceleration off.

It sure does. It was crashing without warning or save. Now at least I'm getting a warning. Sometimes I get to save.

At least now it is a reproducable error. Open Revit. Open any file. Watch the memory bleed. Don't have to do anything. Let it sit long enough - it crashes. System is a 32 bit Intel Core 2 Quad with 3Gb memory.

Note that this doesn't happen with the classic mode enabled. Pagefile hovers around 1.12 Gig and Physical memory leaves me 2.25 gig available.

[cphubb]

Aaron,

Have you submitted this for support? Are you XP or Vista?

We have only had 1 crash since moving the QAT above the Ribbon. That was 2 months ago. Prior to that it was crashing 1-5 times a day. Still HW Accell on and everything. No problem with small models or large. I even duplicated your process and the RAM holds pretty steady at 1.2gb+/-

[twiceroadsfool]

We are now having one or two machines with memory issues as well. But its not consistant across all machines.

One machine: Core 2, 4 Gigs of RAM (not sure ig 3GS is implemented), and it starts giving "Low physical memory" warnings while ONLY having one SMALL project opened... 40 MB file. Considering our template is 33, thats not much of a project. Once today, it kicked the user out: no warning, no error, just *suddenly looking at the desktop."

Meanwhile, my maching: Core 2, 2 Gigs of RAM... And ive had a 100MB file opened all day, with Outlook, and IE, and Newforma.... And mine doesnt blink.

I dont get it...

[aaronrumple]

Aaron,

Have you submitted this for support? Are you XP or Vista?

-

XP and yes it is in for support. Nothing but silence from them. I'm guessing we'll get the 'ol "Escalated to development reply." Which of course means case closed - sorry.

I'm guessing it is Autodesk not dealing with quad cores given past printing issues. Everyone else has a duo core. I have two workstations so I guess the next step is to move the license to my Photoshop system which is a duo core.

[Scott Wilson]

It sure does. It was crashing without warning or save. Now at least I'm getting a warning. Sometimes I get to save.

At least now it is a reproducable error. Open Revit. Open any file. Watch the memory bleed. Don't have to do anything. Let it sit long enough - it crashes. System is a 32 bit Intel Core 2 Quad with 3Gb memory.

Same here. Our big machines do the same thing with a quad core and 8GB of RAM. Even with just a handful of windows open.

[William Troeak]

This post has become too long to kep up on but, Just a thought....I have 3 places in which I maintain Revit and other software.

1 Work- We have windows XP 32 Bit and where experiencing crashes 2-3 time an hour. I almost lost the fight to upgrade to 2010. Then I moved the QAT and all was right with the world. There we have the Revit - AutoCAD Architecture bundle.

2 School - We have windows xp 64 bit quad core and have yet to see a crash, no matter how hard I try. I even brought files from work, but nothing.

3 Laptop - Vista 64 SP2 with IE8 dual core no crashing with the NFR Revit - AutoCAD Architecture - AutoCAD bundle.....

Does it matter if you have a different bundle, and does that bundle play different with each computer?

Just my $0.002 worth.....

[Baldwin_4-6-0]

My Revit 2010 crashes /shuts my computer off immediately after I wiggle the mouse to get out of screensaver mode.

Really sounds like 2010 is a lemon.

[patricks]

I guess I forgot to mention that I'm on a quad-core Xeon machine also (dual duo-core Xeon proc's), and my 2010 has been fine... just as long as I keep HW Accel turned off.

Aside from the little mystery box when I launch the program that gives me a second, classic-style type selector box (pretty annoying actually), it's been fine in the past couple of weeks since I really started using it.

[narlee]

I have a duo core, but it still crashed 3 times yesterday. Twice when I was working on a simple in-place model. Once when I was just doing detail lines. I haven't used 2010 much. Prior to yesterday's work, I had been using it on a project that had some, but not a lot of speed/crash issues. Both projects were ones I had upgraded from 2090. Yesterday, I was using the service pack, so obviously THAT didn't help.

I sent in reports, and kindly (well, not so kindly) suggested they NOT issue this software, but instead issue subscription credits to account for the time lost due to their defective product...or words to that effect.

[patricks]

Oh yeah, my home machine is a dual-core Pentium D (old as dirt I know) and it has only crashed one time in the past 2-3 weeks. It's pretty much the same as my office quad-core machine. As long as HW Accel stays off, it's working fine.

[bebrett]

Does nobody else enjoy paying to beta test Autodesks products?

[narlee]

As long as HW Accel stays off, it's working fine.

Interesting. I just turned that off and found no difference in speed (I only fooled around for a bit). Is that your experience?

Geof

[Baldwin_4-6-0]

After the last crash, I uninstalled the program, and now it won't let me reinstall Revit 2010. right at the end of the install it says its "rolling back action", then it proceeds to undo all that it previously tried ti install. curious???

it will install on other computers, and sometimes it will install and then crash/restart the computer right after it installs.

What would Triumph the Insult Comic Dog say about this?

[patricks]

Interesting. I just turned that off and found no difference in speed (I only fooled around for a bit). Is that your experience?

Geof

My experience is that panning/rotating 3D views is faster and MUCH smoother with shadows both on and off with acceleration on. But on both my home and work machines, it randomly crashes after about 10 minutes or so with acceleration on. So I just leave it off.

[Kevin Janik]

Does it still crash in the Classic UI mode with acceleration on?

Kevin

[patricks]

umm don't know how to do that. I read about it in the "cracking the UI" thread but don't know if anyone ever posted how to do it.

[Kevin Janik]

Go to http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?p=995668#post995668 and post #169 on the right and you will find it.

Many others have noted that their crashing has ended using the Classic UI.

Kevin

[patricks]

ohhh yeah that... bleh, too many problems trying to use the old UI in the new program, and the new UI is here to stay, so may as well get used to it. That's my view anyway. Being able to use hardware acceleration w/o crashing isn't worth it to me to switch back to the old UI (and the various functions that are either missing or inoperative) so I won't be doing it.

[Baldwin_4-6-0]

here is the rollback message...

[jj mac]

Some of our computers never crash but a few crash between 2 - 10 times a day. Depends on the operation and user.

The majority of our crashing issues have been caused when an element is being edited in a plan view. It could be something as simple as moving a wall, door etc, or in some cases we would just SELECT an element and Revit will crash.

The one thing I have seen consistent is that a crash will occur in a PLAN view. The same operation would be done in a 3D view, or elevation and Revit would be fine.

We have been through all the clean up procedures as recommended by our reseller and by Autodesk, we have checked all of our video card drivers and rolled BACK to OLD versions if necessary, we have had Autodesk engineering look at our files and journals, and they always come back clean but the problem is still there.
We also have the update from earlier this month.

I just want Autodesk to come out say that there is a problem and they are working on it... Just make an announcement, or something and say, "There's a problem, we know; and we are working really hard to fix it." However, we all know that's not going to happen and we know exactly why.

[iankids]

Found this on the Cracking the 2010 UI - Go back to classic

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=103069&page=10
"* In my experience a HUGE number of customer complaints/performance problems in AutoCAD and Revit can be directly traced back to old Video Drivers or Antivirus protection - not really something that Autodesk could comprehensively test before they release the product. Last month I found someone had THREE different antivirus packages installed, and of course blaming Autodesk for their problems. Yesterday I found a Revit 2010 Recent file list crash directly due to old nVidia Video Drivers. (not IE8+64bit this time). A few weeks ago I found an undetected strain of spyware causing 100% CPU usage in Civil 3D. Today someone said Autocad was much slower after Norton 360 was installed... Disabled the Norton "Tamper Protection" feature and applied the hot fix referenced on the autodesk/symantec site and he was good to go."
from cdodge.73262 - user who works for a reseller

Might not help, but certainly worth a look. Norton in particular is well known for causing all sorts of dramas with different software.

for what it is worth, I am running ESET Smart Security 4 as my Anti Virus software. For me, 2010 is pretty stable.

Ian

[bulletproofdesign]

My Revit 2010 crashes /shuts my computer off immediately after I wiggle the mouse to get out of screensaver mode.

Really sounds like 2010 is a lemon.

I haven't used a screen saver since forever. I tend to get my monitor to turn off when idle. Sleep hibernate and screen savers make windows less stable in my opinion

If I give my 2 cents worth 50 million times, I just gave away 1 million bucks!!

[Baldwin_4-6-0]

I haven't used a screen saver since forever. I tend to get my monitor to turn off when idle. Sleep hibernate and screen savers make windows less stable in my opinion



Well, I like screensavers & I intend to use them, like forever.

Fact: Revit 2009 or "Classic UI 2010" does not crash Windows w/ screensavers on. "Ribbon UI 2010" does crash Windows w/ screensavers on.

[patricks]

I have just been using the "Blank" screen saver on my dual LCD displays for years. No issues with Revit 2010. I changed it to one of those 3D flying objects screen savers a minute ago, still no problems. No crashing of 2010.

Truthfully screen savers are not needed at all with LCD displays. I disabled the Blank screen saved on my 20" widescreen at home last year because it interfered with certain programs, and sometimes the screen will stay on for hours with no ill effects.

I suppose I should just set the monitors to turn off after awhile to save some power.

[DaveP]

I just upgraded someone this morning & she was having all kinds of crashing problems. Couldn't go more than a few minutes without a crash.

Updated her video drivers over lunch, and she hasn't had another crash since (4 hours)

[patricks]

The boss's machine just locked up while moving some text in a site plan on 2010. Didn't really "crash" per se, just locked up the whole system such that he had to do a hard reboot, and lose what he had done in the past 15-20 minutes.

Needless to say, boss is not happy, and it's probably going to be on me because I pushed for this project to be in 2010.

His machine is rather old, though, at least 5 years... it has dual Xeon processors, but only 3 GB RAM installed. But he also never had problems running 2009.

[andrewharle]

Needless to say, boss is not happy, and it's probably going to be on me because I pushed for this project to be in 2010.

In my view the problem of moving a project to 2010 and not being able to save it back as 2009 is a fundamental problem of Revit, and possibly unique to it, and should be fixed ASAP.

For Autodesk to issue Revit 2010 without this feature they should guarantee that the new version is reliable, and provide compensation if its not. Clearly 2010 to date has not been reliable, and Autodesk will never offer any guarantees regarding their software's reliability.

The ability to save as the previous version is an essential feature of any software, precisely because of the teething problems of rolling out a new version.

Regarding Update 1, has this fixed most of the crash issues? We have not started using Revit 2010, and won't until the consensus is that it works and is stable.

[patricks]

In my view the problem of moving a project to 2010 and not being able to save it back as 2009 is a fundamental problem of Revit, and possibly unique to it, and should be fixed ASAP.

For Autodesk to issue Revit 2010 without this feature they should guarantee that the new version is reliable, and provide compensation if its not. Clearly 2010 to date has not been reliable, and Autodesk will never offer any guarantees regarding their software's reliability.

The ability to save as the previous version is an essential feature of any software, precisely because of the teething problems of rolling out a new version.

Regarding Update 1, has this fixed most of the crash issues? We have not started using Revit 2010, and won't until the consensus is that it works and is stable.

Saving back in Revit just isn't going to happen. All the new features that get added to every release are part of the project, so what would happen to them if you were to save back? I just think the type of program this is, essentially being a building "database" prevents the possibility of saving backwards.

[kcooper.190440]

I am getting three or four crashes (Revit 2010) a day and maybe a couple disappearances (Revit simply disappears without a trace and no error report is generated)). Is this what others are experiencing or is this out of the ordinary. Revit 2009 ran just fine on my machines so any problems I am having are not hardware related. Some of my files are called "Project 1 Recovery Recovery Recovery Recovery".

At least you are getting recovery files. I have 1 project in 2010 and it was crashing regularly (about every 40 minutes) without an error - the program just closed out! Since we've updated the driver it still happens, though only 1 to 3 times in a day - on a bad day... I am continuing to use 2009 until an architect forces me to do otherwise.

[andrewharle]

Saving back in Revit just isn't going to happen.... I just think the type of program this is, essentially being a building "database" prevents the possibility of saving backwards.

Well ArchiCAD does it, and is also a BIM database, but obviously new features/elements get stripped out!

I think that is an excuse not a technical reason.

[nancy.mcclure]

We are experiencing numerous crashes, even on smaller files. We are often running presentation software at the same time (PowerPoint, etc) so the current thinking is combo memory and graphics processing conflicts. However, after crashes which close Revit Arch 2010, restarting the program and simply selecting "Open.." can result in repeated crashes. Very frustrating. We've updated drivers, engaged 3GB, turned off hardware accelerators in both the RA2010 program AND in the base O/S & Nvidia managers. No noted improvement.

As for 'saving back', I've inquired with several system architects and database programmers who all give me 'The Face' when I tell them Revit does not save back. It is DEFINITELY a development team decision, or has been as some point in its history, and it may now be simply impossible to achieve without a major overhaul of the program (which, seems that 2010 would have been a perfect opportunity for, but the marketing cycle of a new release per year doesn't allow much time to sort feature requests, develop AND test before release! Hello!)

I'm a huge fan of Revit, wouldn't be using it otherwise, but I do feel that a yearly release has been a hindrance rather than a benefit to the program. (this, of course, is my personal opinion, and does not reflect that of my employer, strategic partners, etc.)

[Doug]

This will be my one and only 2010 project.

Major problems with crashing 3-5 times a day!
To many problems with new interface.
Commands chane in the Walls - how to find what use to be simple change the wall structural usage
GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARDS AUTODESK!!! We really don't care if it looks like AutoCAD Architectural Desktop! This is Revit!

[Wes Macaulay]

All of you -- please write in to carl.bass and scott.latch and anthony.hauck @autodesk.com so that these people know that 2010 has flopped for you, erasing Subscription value. Even if the Ribbon works great in 2011 -- and that's a long time off! -- there's a whole year down the tubes for a lot of folks here on AUGI, and I sympathize with them. It's a serious problem.

[ahauck]

All of you -- please write in to carl.bass and scott.latch and anthony.hauck @autodesk.com so that these people know that 2010 has flopped for you, erasing Subscription value. Even if the Ribbon works great in 2011 -- and that's a long time off! -- there's a whole year down the tubes for a lot of folks here on AUGI, and I sympathize with them. It's a serious problem.

Hi everyone.

Since many of us at Autodesk regularly read the threads on AUGI, it's probably more effective to file support issues with the attendant models, journals and other information to summarize the state of Revit at the crash moment. If we can reproduce these reported crashes, we have an opportunity to fix them. We're already working with some folks, but we're having trouble reproducing some of the issues internally, so more complete information may help.

Thanks,
Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
BIM Design Product Line Manager

[Wes Macaulay]

The thing that drives me nuts about all this is that the Ribbon has shown itself to be a big anchor on Revit's function -- performance degradation and stability problems -- and we're not the only camp who have noted this. The en masse movement to the Ribbon by the different development communities has been decried by the expert users of those communities, so for me, it's more than just a support request to fix the problem.

The corporate move to have a common UI for all apps is a hard pill to swallow, and having given the new UI a fair shake, I find it hard to imagine that a new iteration of the Ribbon will win me over. Even if the performance and stability problems associated with the Ribbon were gone, some productivity for most of us has been lost.

[andrewharle]

To many problems with new interface.


Running Revit 2010 with the 2009 interface seems to work OK (using Debug mode) (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?p=994203#post994203), at least on a trial basis.

Does this fix the regular crashes, and is it worth keeping this setting until the 2010 Ribbon interface is sorted?

We are just starting a big new project in Revit and we can't afford to move to 2010 if it is going to crash regularly. However we have had problems importing DWGs with 2009 & have found 2010 is better at handling them.

[ahower]

Running Revit 2010 with the 2009 interface seems to work OK (using Debug mode) (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?p=994203#post994203), at least on a trial basis.

Does this fix the regular crashes, and is it worth keeping this setting until the 2010 Ribbon interface is sorted?

worked for me.

[iankids]

Running Revit 2010 with the 2009 interface seems to work OK (using Debug mode) (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?p=994203#post994203), at least on a trial basis.

Does this fix the regular crashes, and is it worth keeping this setting until the 2010 Ribbon interface is sorted?

We are just starting a big new project in Revit and we can't afford to move to 2010 if it is going to crash regularly. However we have had problems importing DWGs with 2009 & have found 2010 is better at handling them.


Unilke a number of others users, 2010 with the Ribbon was relatively stable for me. (Crashed only every so often - once I had changed computers, see below)

Classic mode via debug.ini has been exceptionally stable not one crash in over a month of work on two computers. As noted elsewhere, the speed of 2010 in Classic Mode is fantastic.

My boxes are: Vista 64bit 8gb (4gb on 2nd box) ram and ATI Video Cards.

Not withstanding the known problems of Nvidia cards, I suspect that part of the stability problems with the Ribbon may be due to the resource hungry nature of the beast.

When I first loaded 2010 on one of my boxes (running xp with 4gb ram - 3gig switch activated) it was very slow and unstable. I immediately changed the computer - I was due for an upgrade around then anyway, and bought the new one to the specs above and upgraded the 2nd computer to Vista 64bit. 2010 with the ribbon then ran much better.

If you have an older computer, where ram is limited, I think you would be well advised to run the Classic instead of the ribbon.

Ian

[aaronrumple]

Hi everyone.
If we can reproduce these reported crashes, we have an opportunity to fix them. We're already working with some folks, but we're having trouble reproducing some of the issues internally, so more complete information may help.


Just drop by the office any day. I'll be happy to reproduce the errors for you.

[jj mac]

I was wondering if anyone has tested RAC 2010 with any of / or a combination there of, the following components:

1.) Solid state hard drive
2.) 32 GB of RAM - Which I believe is the max for a 64 bit OS - either Vista or Windows 7 (Please correct me if I am wrong on that)
3.) Core i7 quad-core processor

I know Revit does not take advantage of quad processors etc, but I am wondering if the technology in these new processors helps at all...?

Also with 32 GB of memory, one would think that windows and the new ribbon being as hungry for resources as it is would greatly help alleviate some of the pressure on the computer.

Thanks...

[al]

Just adding more information. Constant crashing with NVIDIA card - EXCEPT in 'classic UI' mode where all is fine. Tried many different drivers. I think it's some kind of graphic card memory leak - if thats possible. Next step is to try an ATI card.

[pwmsmith]

Aaron,

Did you solve your problem with crashes? We are trying to buy new computers for the office.

Patrick

[ahauck]

Hi folks.

We tracked down one crash issue in 2010 around wall editing, and have posted a hotfix:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=13778933&linkID=9273944

Please use the hotfix feedback to let us know if this helps your issues.

Thanks,
Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
BIM Design Product Line Manager

[aaronrumple]

Aaron,

Did you solve your problem with crashes? We are trying to buy new computers for the office.

Patrick

No. We are getting crashes on all our different systems. This includes duo-core, quad core, 32 bit and 64 bit. We have a hot 64 bit dual dual core AMD system with a very nice Quadro graphics card running 64 bit. It was coming to a crawl yesterday. The person working on it was waiting 3-4 min. for even simple tasks. The ribbon would just vanish from screen (exposing the desktop) while Revit was updating objects. Revit was using almost 3 gig of ram and another 2.5 gig in swap space. (There was plenty of ram left). The project is 145 mb.

[sjsl]

I crash several times a day working on small projects of 20 mgs or less. Sometimes the the computer justs shuts itself off and auto reboots when its just sitting there. This has happened on every machine that has 2010 installed. xeon machines 4g ram 32bit w/3g switches on. We are told by It that we have the latest viedo drivers.

Based upon what I heard so far I wil be testing the old ui this week to see if it helps as others say it does.

Oh, and by the way, our new users do not care for the ui because of the constantly shifting interface and icons jumping.

My opinion, bring back the old ui with the new icons and colors plain and simple.

[iankids]

ArGGGHHHH!

Needing to do a bit of model line work for a job due out to the town planner tomorrow, I switched over from Classic to Ribbon. Working away for a while and having completed the line work foolishly continued working in the Ribbon UI.

Boom, bang Crash!

Not your nice little - we have encountered a problem and need to shut down type of crash, but one where everything you are working on just vanishes before your eyes!

Anthony, Erik, Tony, Carl - indeed anyone at Autodesk, this is nonsense, bring back the Classic UI with all tools fully functioning.

Rant off :-(

Ian

[cliff collins]

has anyone installed this?

http://bimboom.blogspot.com/2009/08/autodesk-revit-hotfix-crash-when.html

any improvement on crashes?

cheers...........

[aaronrumple]

has anyone installed this?

http://bimboom.blogspot.com/2009/08/autodesk-revit-hotfix-crash-when.html

any improvement on crashes?

cheers...........

Note that this hotfix kills the ability to switch to the 2009 UI.
You might want to backup the old file if you think you might need to fall back to the 2009 UI.

[ahauck]

Note that this hotfix kills the ability to switch to the 2009 UI.
You might want to backup the old file if you think you might need to fall back to the 2009 UI.

Hi folks.

Yes, QA just informed me minutes ago that this was the case. Sorry about that, I would have warned you had I known. I have development working on a version that will not kill the 2009 UI debug mode.

Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
BIM Design PLM

[aaronrumple]

Hi folks.

Yes, QA just informed me minutes ago that this was the case. Sorry about that, I would have warned you had I known. I have development working on a version that will not kill the 2009 UI debug mode.

Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
BIM Design PLM

Thanks...!

[ahauck]

Thanks...!

...and I just asked Product Support to put a warning about this side effect into the hotfix text for this. I'll keep an eye on it.

Anthony

[ahauck]

Hi folks.

While we work on a crash hotfix that doesn't disable the 2009 UI mode, I had support place this warning on the hotfix text:

Warning! If you install this hotfix, you will not be able to use the pre-2010 "Classic" user Interface.

Hopefully, people will then be able to make an informed decision.

Thanks,
Anthony

[Doug]

Can I get the 2009 UI? WHERE!!!
Would be an aswer to my prayers!!

[iankids]

Can I get the 2009 UI? WHERE!!!
Would be an aswer to my prayers!!

Doug,

Check out http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=103069&page=10 for the information on how to switch on debug mode. (Classic UI)

Read through the rest of the thread as there is some info on how to get the old keyboard shortcuts working.

There are a couple of tools which don't work in Debug mode - again, have a look at the thread on debug mode for info.

Ian

[ahauck]

Hi folks.

This time I think we've got the crash fix squared away without the unexpected side effect of disabling the 2009 UI mode:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=13778933&linkID=9273944

If you think you're experiencing this issue, please install the hotfix and respond on the hotfix site as to whether this fix has cleared up some problems.

Thanks, sorry for the runaround on this.

Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
BIM Design PLM