Spiral Stairs

[Steve_Stafford]

Okay I realize there are limitations to stairs in that a spiral stair built around a post isn't "possible"?? If I'm wrong, I'm happily wrong, but there are no hits on the help search for "spiral stair"...no hint of it other than changing the boundary to an arc...etc.

I messed around with a tight spiral using intermediate levels to "continue" a stair up using the multistory option but that was fairly unsatisfactory.

So how are folks dealing with these animals? In place families?
Has anyone setup a parametric family using an array both vertically and radially? Guess not huh? I'd tackle it if only to say I did, except I'm not a mathumagician... :cry:

I've got a spiral stair to contend with now...so I'm all ears!! (well not really, I've only got two like most everyone I know...)

[beegee]

It would certainly be an interesting challenge to make a proper family.

You would need to set up a formula that calculates the number of risers between levels, based on maximum and minimum limits, ( logical operators ) converts that to an integer and then feeds that to the radial array. The radial array would need to return over itself as well ( in most cases .)

I'm pretty sure that Revit can't handle that sort of formula (yet.)

I suggest an in-place is TWTG. :wink:

PS. Disregard the part about the risers. You can set up parameters to give the correct number quite easily. Its the next bit thats difficult !

[shaunv68276]

I do a number of spiral stairs. All around a 100mm RAD column, 1m wide
Varies from 180 deg to 360 deg and multi level with no problem. I do have a sprial stair training avi that helps if you need it as well as the working example

[Steve_Stafford]

Thanks for sharing :!: , I'll take a look a soon as possible this morning! How big is the AVI? May be worth seeing that, let you know.

[Steve_Stafford]

Okay since I said it can't be done I might as well qualify my statement and post an image of what "can" be done to graphically convey the intent to provide a spiral stair as opposed to modeling the "true" stair.

Spirals tend to be (in the US according to our graphic standards books) one of three common angles and to do a typical stair often requires the boundary to overlap itself. Revit won't allow this overlap so you must alter the real tread angle so the total treads will fit within 360 degrees.

The attached image depicts a stair that normally would travel 405 degrees but I reduced the tread angle to 23 degrees, from 30 to fit the treads within 360 max. As a graphic image it's okay, but one couldn't expect to do shop drawings from it...so a builder wouldn't be satisfied. Also the true landing relative to the first riser isn't necessarily accurate either. So some "cover thy bottom" notes are required to clarify where a stair must start and or end depending on your situation.

This is my understanding...

[christo4robin]

Steve,

Just a thought--can you do anything with unusually large nosings to get the overlap you're referring to?

Christopher

[Steve_Stafford]

The overlap I'm talking about isn't a stair tread overlap, rather the overall travel of the stair. If you consider the 9'-0" floor to floor of the image I posted. That stair technically starts and ends 405 degrees later based on "real" treads. But Revit will only let you model a stair that fits in less than 360 degrees. So 30 degree treads must be whittled down until they "fit". The stair looks convincing but if you were to actually walk up it, you'd find it a bit uncomfortable because each step would be too shallow for your foot at the center of travel.

Make sense?

[PeterJ]

Steve

Couldn't you work out what ten risers was (80" maybe?) and then make a stair that started at level zero rose to 80" and a second stair that rose from 80" to level 1?

Presumably you don't schedule stairs so you wouldn't cause a problem there but it would give you a model that could form the basis of the carpenters, or the steel fabricators, rods.

It would seem an okay workaround for the moment.

Pete

[Steve_Stafford]

I did try something similar, I added a mid level @ 5'-0". Then made one stair rise to mid then another to rise from mid to top. But bottom stair stops on tread below the mid level and the top stair starts on tread above the bottom which leaves a tread "missing". Ungainly no matter how you slice it.

The stair tool needs to be able to draw a spiral based on rise, tread size, angle rules and the post diameter just the way you'd lay out one for real.

[beegee]

I've played around with making a parametric family until my limited supply of time and patience is exhausted. I cannot get a combined radial and vertical array to work properly.

I'll leave that for those clever parametric family builders out there.

I quite agree with Steve that this should be part of the standard stair tool package.

[PeterJ]

I'm not going to pick up the challenge beegee, but it should be possible because whenever I wanted a 2D array (number wide x number high) to work it always seemed to offset in the third dimension too.......

[beegee]

Cmon Pete, have a go.


it should be possible because whenever I wanted a 2D array (number wide x number high) to work it always seemed to offset in the third dimension too

As Rusty Stafford said, when I had the same problem :-


It has to do with how the array was not constrained, so some members of the array "choose" the "wrong" level as the base level to determine placement. The different templates have different default levels so I'm assuming the templates that the family acts out in just happen to have levels that coincide with what the family is trying to do.


OK, clear on all that ? I'll expect the spiral stair family on my desk, first thing in the morning then.

[PeterJ]

In the morning?

Come on, in common with Rusty (and yeah, we get the connection) you surely never sleep!

[jsykes12]

I have come to this forum hoping to find some help for spiral stairs, but I found that people are having the same troubles I am having.

Revit needs to develop a solution to this problem...

My clients are anxious to see their spiral stairs, and I cannot convey a truthful depiction.

Hoping for a change...
James
Marks & Salley, Inc.
Houston

[beegee]

I have come to this forum hoping to find some help for spiral stairs, but I found that people are having the same troubles I am having.

Revit needs to develop a solution to this problem...

My clients are anxious to see their spiral stairs, and I cannot convey a truthful depiction.

Hoping for a change...
James
Marks & Salley, Inc.
HoustonYou came to the right place James.

http://forums.solidvapor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1343

This stair was created by Phil Read (using revit of course. )

[Scott D Davis]

On a related subject, just got my copy of AUGI World Magazine (which all of you AUGI members can also get for free, go to Subscriptions at www.augi.com (http://www.augi.com)) and Chris Fox has an article in it titled: Stairway to Heaven:, Stair and Railing tolls in Autodesk Revit.

He goes over straight run and curved stairs, but not true spiral stairs. Anyway, its good reading, check it out!

[Steve_Stafford]

Interesting title Scott, if you recall my class submission to AU 2004 used that title. This Post (http://forums.solidvapor.net/showthread.php?t=3336&highlight=Autodesk+University+class )

[Scott D Davis]

Yeah, i noticed that! Actually, when I first opened the magazine and read the title, I thought you were going to be the author!

[slb]

Although it's not "a single stair", that fact should not prevent you from presenting your clients with the correct configuration.

Attached is a spiral stair that rotates through ~1030 degrees. It is, as you might suspect, not actually 1 stair due to the sketching limith that you mention, but three stairs with top and bottom offsets and rotated to align properly with the sair below ot create a continuous run.

[BomberAIA]

I add another level at a mid-point of the stair rise. I draw 2 stairs on top of each other since spiral stairs will not go beyond 360 deg.

[mcuevas]

I was looking for a post on this subject a while ago and couldn't find one myself, so what I ended up doing was creating the spiral stair in 3ds max, exporting it to cad and then importing it to revit and creating a family out of it. This method took a lot of the math out of it.

[beegee]

I just like posting images of nice spiral stairs created by Phil Read. Know what I mean ?

[blads]

Or an equally great view of Phil Read's spiral stairs complete with glass balustrade...

a trully fantastic stair!

[Tibor]

Steve Burri's method of creating spiral stairs (posted two days ago) works well with the upgraded stair capabilities of Release 6.
I used his method successfully, with only some tweaking.

Unlike the stair he shows in his post, which is made of three pieces, mine had only two; but the idea is the same.

His notes to me at that time were:

This stair was created from two stairs where the top offset of the 1st equals the bottom offset of the second. In addition, two other parameters were modified in the top stairs (and a new stair type was created):

(see attached screen capture)

“Begin with Riser” was unchecked
Extend Below Base was set to -1’ 0”.

Some additional cleanup was performed using the linework tool and the top rail was modified slightly (to remove the 1st baluster).

[robmorfin]

Here is the same spiral stair in piece (one run with few lines), the drafting tools are enough to create it, the problem is with the handrail, after the first 360 degrees it gets all messed up, so I am not even showing it, I know that a stair without a handrail is not up to code in the US but it is fine in some other countries, so here goes the file for whoever can use it, and maybe somebody can find out how to make the handrail work fine and post a solution.

[bowlingbrad]

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious...
Spiral stairs are created with a 2d sketch. This sketch cannot have overlapping lines. A spiral stair that needs to rotate past 360 degrees will then have overlapping lines. This means that two different stairs need to be created. The two stairs may have to have different properties in order for them to connect properly. I know this is a workaround of sorts but, we have to abide by the Revit rules (or maybe bend them a little). There was an AU class this year that explained this as well. It was the advanced Tips on Thursday morning. I think Lilly gave the explanation.

[patricks]

I too have had problems with handrails when trying to do 2 sets of spiral stairs to create a single tall stair. It usually either kicks me out or says that it generated serious errors.

[robmorfin]

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious...
Spiral stairs are created with a 2d sketch. This sketch cannot have overlapping lines. A spiral stair that needs to rotate past 360 degrees will then have overlapping lines. This means that two different stairs need to be created. The two stairs may have to have different properties in order for them to connect properly. I know this is a workaround of sorts but, we have to abide by the Revit rules (or maybe bend them a little). There was an AU class this year that explained this as well. It was the advanced Tips on Thursday morning. I think Lilly gave the explanation.
The stair I created is a one piece stair with one sketch, the run is 3 arcs one overlaping the next, I've noticed everybody has being writing that is not possible, but it is, the handrail sketching behaves as those "Revit rules" which I think don't make sense in this case, you should be able to create a handrail with overlaping lines as the stair run sketch and it should attach each segment in the order it was created as the run sketch, in other words the sketch should have a start and an end.

This is another perfect example of where nurbs could be applied to a path being able to sketch in the 3 axis at the same time, this is a 3D program, GOD.

[bowlingbrad]

Please post the stair. I'd love to see how you did it!

[Mr Spot]

Yes the run tool does allow overlapping lines, but if it doesn't get it right then its near impossible to correct as you try to work out which lines corresponds with which level. I prefer to break them up.

[robmorfin]

Please post the stair. I'd love to see how you did it!
The Revit file is attached to my first post from 12/5/05, the link is located right below the image.

By the way, while the handrail is fixed to follow the run, you can instead use a "handrail" wall & edit the profile in few (or alot) sections of wall.

[ford347]

The stair I created is a one piece stair with one sketch, the run is 3 arcs one overlaping the next, I've noticed everybody has being writing that is not possible, but it is, the handrail sketching behaves as those "Revit rules" which I think don't make sense in this case, you should be able to create a handrail with overlaping lines as the stair run sketch and it should attach each segment in the order it was created as the run sketch, in other words the sketch should have a start and an end.


I'd like to talk more about this method. Here is something that everyone has said we cannot do, including myself, yet it is possible. I tried recreating it and the way I did it is I just kept using the arc run tool. But with that you start loosing your place very easily since you can only draw in 2d sketch. Is this truly a viable work-around and can we come up with some step by step to make this work well? I'd like to keep messing around with it. I have a project that has some tight quarters and I am trying to create a code compliant spiral stair that revovles around a 4" column. Just a pre-fab purchase. Although I have created some creative stairs going through the learning curve, it still proves to be quite complicated to get a code compliant stair out of a small confined space with this tool.

Josh

[daniele.rossi]

The stair I created is a one piece stair with one sketch, the run is 3 arcs one overlaping the next, I've noticed everybody has being writing that is not possible, but it is, the handrail sketching behaves as those "Revit rules" which I think don't make sense in this case, you should be able to create a handrail with overlaping lines as the stair run sketch and it should attach each segment in the order it was created as the run sketch, in other words the sketch should have a start and an end.

This is another perfect example of where nurbs could be applied to a path being able to sketch in the 3 axis at the same time, this is a 3D program, GOD.

It seems you can do the handrail the same way you did fot the stair, only delete the automatic ones and sketch a new handrail.