RAC2010- Reloading Nested Shared Families

[twiceroadsfool]

Im having a strange problem, im wondering if someone else can check for it.

Im working on a nested family that has families nested about three levels deep. So:

Parent family.
Level 1 family
Level 2 family
Level 3 family
Level 4 family

Where L3 is IN L2, L2 is in L1, and L1 is in parent. They are all Furniture. Level 4 is Shared.

If i go in and change something in any of them, and load them back in to the next level up... The family disappears. It doesnt get deleted with an error message, it just vanishes. Then, if i place another instance, nothing shows up. I dont get the "its there but not visible" warning, it just never shows up.

So right now my only capability is if i need to make an alteration and reload the family, i have to edit undo all the way back (in the next level up) to before i loaded the family, or it doesnt work. Or, i have to remove the family entirely and load it in.

What the heck??

[saeborne]

Level 4 is the only one shared?

This is indeed a strange error. Have not clue if this will work, but what if each individual level was shared?

That way, when you want to make a change to Level 3, for example, you edit the Level 3 family, and reload only in the Project... Not into the Level 2 .RFA file.

In theory, the Level 2 family already loaded in the project should update.

But then again, in theory, components shouldn't be disappearing on you, either.


--

Another thing that I might try... Perhaps you can "flatten" the nested hierarchy. So that all your various components are loaded into Level 1, and arranged there.

I'm sure you have a reason for nesting 4 levels deep, but I suspect that may be the source of the problem?

Let us know how it goes.

[twiceroadsfool]

Its nested 4 levels deep because its a Parametric Radial array. Level 4 is the only one shared because i needed the various families just for making the array work, but i dont want levels 1,2,3 to schedule. Just basically the parent family, and the level 4 object.

I realized the biggest caveat with this problem just now:

I didnt mind doing the "rewind and reload" to get the families built... But the family at "Level 4" is also loaded NATIVELY in the friggin PROJECT. So now i load in Parent Family in to the project, and the entire damn array of objects DOESNT SHOW. I cant take the Level 4 family out of the project or hundreds of them will disappear.

This is rediculous, LOL...

[twiceroadsfool]

To confirm-

I have loaded this family in to an empty project and everything worked the same way:

1. Load parent family (radial desk with chairs)in to project.
2. Place parent family. Nested family (chairs) shows up perfectly.
3. Load Chair family in to project. Definitions are identical, so no Warning about different definitions.
4. Place some individual chairs around the model.
5. Edit the Parent family (desk with chairs).
6. Edit a parameter value for the angle of the desk. (In NO way affects chairs at all. Not the count, not the visibility, and certainly not the definition.)
7. Reload desk family in to project.

All the chairs in the desk family are now gone. Not in the schedule, not in the view.

[twiceroadsfool]

Well, im REALLY not amused. Here is what i had to do to get by for today.

I had to open every family that has that Chair in it. (Workstations, individual desks, the radial desk array, etc). I had to delete the chair from everyone of them, and load them in the project. Then i had to delete the chair from the project. Entirely.

Then i had to load in the desk array. THEN i had to edit > undo in every one of those families, to get the chair back, and reload them in to the model.

Ive been nesting shared families for years, ive NEVER had one behave like this before.

If the definitions are different, you get the same old warning we always get, asking which def. to use. NOTHING in the CHAIR has changed in over a week. This is really really irritating. Filing a support request, and now praying i dont have to change that family again.

Jesus!

[twiceroadsfool]

Workaround number 2, becasuse that one is too cumbersome when i need to edit the freakin family.

If i create a blank project, thats never seen ANY version of either, i can load the array family in to it, and all shows up well. Then, if i copy and paste it in to the project, it obviously tells me its a dupe with a different definition, and appends a number to the end of the name, BUT: it still displays and schedules normally, which it doesnt do if i use Load Family, or Load in to Project.

6 hours, trying to figure this out... Shouldve been fifteen minutes. And all i have now is an ugly list of duplicate families in my job .

[saeborne]

Its nested 4 levels deep because its a Parametric Radial array. Level 4 is the only one shared because i needed the various families just for making the array work, but i dont want levels 1,2,3 to schedule. Just basically the parent family, and the level 4 object.

I realized the biggest caveat with this problem just now:

I didnt mind doing the "rewind and reload" to get the families built... But the family at "Level 4" is also loaded NATIVELY in the friggin PROJECT. So now i load in Parent Family in to the project, and the entire damn array of objects DOESNT SHOW. I cant take the Level 4 family out of the project or hundreds of them will disappear.

This is rediculous, LOL...

Sounds tough. I feel your pain to some degree. I'm working on an ENORMOUS government job with literally thousands of work stations. I used the following trick to control what I want to schedule, and what I don't want to schedule.

Basically, for my nested families, I'm taking advantage of the Furniture Category vs. the Furniture Systems Category. So the stuff I want to count, is under Furniture Systems, and the stuff I don't care to schedule is under Furniture.

So, perhaps you could make Level 4, Furniture Systems. Make Levels 1 thru 3 Furniture, but also make them shared. Then make the Parent family Furniture Systems.

[twiceroadsfool]

It doesnt matter what catagory it is. The issue is Level 4 DISAPPEARS. Scheduling isnt the issue at all, except when the objects vanish.

Plus, i use Furn Sys vs. Furniture to delineate between composites and parts. A desk is Furniture. A chair, a filing cabinet, etc. But a "Workstation A" with a desk, a chair, and a cabinet, is a Furniture system. That way i can get individual counts of chairs, plus total counts of workstations. Its great, cuz youll have chairs without workstations in some places, but sometimes need counts of actual stations, etc.

Support is looking in to it. So far theyre confusing it as a limitation of whats shared and what isnt, but thats not the issue, as evidenced by the fact that it works FINE the first time you put the family in, and goes haywire when you try to edit the family or reload.

I built this family in 2010, but im half tempted to redo it in 09 because i have several just like it in 09 and they all work fine...

[twiceroadsfool]

Update from support:

1. They have been able to reproduce the problem. It exists when a Shared Family is nested "a few levels in" to other families, where not all of the families are shared. It is not a static number of levels that they could quantify.

2. They are aware it is not just a visibility issue, but that the objects are actually gone from schedules, etc.

3. Theyve forwarded it on to development, as there is no fix for it currently.

Current workarounds include: Make all of the Levels of Families shared (ugh...), keep copying and pasting the refined versions of the family from a clean project that has never seen either families definition before, and deal with the duplicate naming...

I have explained to them that making all levels Shared is less than ideal, considering 3 of the 4 levels of nested families arent actual Project Objects, but are simply families necessary for Revit to properly constrain a radial parametric array.

They were pretty understanding with that issue, so here is hoping they get it fixed for 2012 or 2013. :)