Large complicated Building with linked files and deleting dimensions

[plavallee]

We need some insight on why our dimensions are deleting.

We have set-up our project to have 4 Architectural model files, 1 structural file one mechanical file and 1 electrical file. We then linked all these files into one master file for our Architectural sheets. We have recently experienced a setback in the form of 292 deleted dimensions.

We presume that these dimensions where deleted because one of our consultants make a major change to the model, but we aren't sure.

Is there anybody out there that have worked with large buildings using mutlydiscipline Revit models?

[wmullett]

I believe we need more information on how you manage your links when your consultant changes something.

[cliff collins]

I suspect that the Linked files were set to "reference" and not "overlay"
and this could be part of the reason dimensions which were tied to Linked
models are "disappearing".

Do a bit of research on links set to reference and overlay.

cheers.......

[plavallee]

All of our links are set as "Attachements", not as Overlays and all the paths are set to Absolute paths. All our linked files are loaded using Origin to Origin as far as I can tell, no one has moved the origin points in their models. We have set-up our shared coordinates to match.

[twiceroadsfool]

Plavallee-

It will be easier for us to discern how to best help you if we have more setup information. IE:

1. What objects were dimensioned where dimensions were deleted?
2. When you are in "Main," Struct, MEP, and Arch Links are linked in. Is the reverse true as well? When you go in Arch Link 2, is Struct and MEP present? This is paramount for us to tell you why things are deleting.
3. Are you dimensioning TO objects in the Linked Files? If so, what types of objects?
4. Who is editing the other files?
4a. Are they deleting and recreating objects, or editing and moving objects?

3, 4, and 4a are biggies. Items with sketches that get altered (lines deleted and redrawin instead of edited/moved), items that get replaced instead of moved, mirrored instead of flip controlled, disjoined when handled, etc... Are ALL going to have dimensional associations lost.

[plavallee]

In response to your question to clarify:

1. What objects were dimensioned where dimensions were deleted?
-structural slab edges.


2. When you are in "Main," Struct, MEP, and Arch Links are linked in. Is the reverse true as well? When you go in Arch Link 2, is Struct and MEP present? This is paramount for us to tell you why things are deleting.
-all files are linked into our master file which contain all our sheets with dimensions and annotations


3. Are you dimensioning TO objects in the Linked Files? If so, what types of objects?
-We are dimensionning slab edges and slab openings (structural)

4. Who is editing the other files?
-all consutants edit their own files and no-one messes with other consultants files

4a. Are they deleting and recreating objects, or editing and moving objects?
-i don't think that anybody is deleting anything, but they are editing and moving objects.

[twiceroadsfool]

When they send you an updated file, what is the process you are using to replace the older one that you have?

[plavallee]

All we do is overwright the old file with the new one.

[wmullett]

We have not had a simliar situation so this is just a wild guess.

Could this be a sequence issue... Say your model is A, structural S, mechanical M, plumbing P and say you individually linked S into A then M into A etc... but then when you reloaded M, it already had P linked into it and the link gets loaded in the position from the sub-link.....

As I said - a wild guess.

[kwilson.216547]

We are also working on a very large project and have had the same issue of dimensions being deleted that were dimensioned to the structural grid. We solved this by taking control on the grid into the Architectural model...

The other work-around has been to draw a thin or white line along the edge of the object in the linked file (line is drawn in your arch'l model file) where you are dimensioning to--so that when the linked file is updated, you will not loose the dimension...you'll just have to keep an eye out for when one of these items in the linked file moves location.

This solution does not use Revit the way the program was intended, but it is easier and less annoying than having the program delete work that you've done.

[Scott Womack]

We are also working on a very large project and have had the same issue of dimensions being deleted that were dimensioned to the structural grid. We solved this by taking control on the grid into the Architectural model...

The "correct" way to deal with this (according to people within the Factory) is to use the Copy/Monitor tool to "copy" the structural grids into the architectural and MEP models. Then using View templates I turn off the Structural grids in any views going on sheets. The I can dimension to the grids without them deleting dimensions. If the structural does something less then intelligent, like deleting the grid, and redrawing instead of just moving/modifying it, I'm Warned via the monitoring. I can then un-monitor the grid if necessary, move it, and then re-establish the monitoring. This way I don't loose dimensions to the grids. "Taking control seems like it might needlessly punish the engineer for others not understanding potential workflow.

[kwilson.216547]

If the structural does something less then intelligent, like ..."Taking control seems like it might needlessly punish the engineer for others not understanding potential workflow.

What makes you think that you can tell your consultants how to work/ how to draw? That's like telling the GC the means and methods. Or have you considered maybe the consultants aren't working in Revit, but are able to save their file as a Revit one so that you can use it w/ your Revit model so we have to find ways to work without all the Revit features?

[Scott Womack]

Well, I guess the humor didn't come across. No offense was intended. I was actually in part defending the structural engineers keeping more control over the grids. By the badly chosen "terminology" I must have caused some offense. Non was actually intended. I have seen people erase a column grid, only to completely redraw it, and label it the same 2 feet over. This was in-place of just moving it the necessary distance. You feel this is "means and methods" but is actually learning what the software can do, if everyone is on the same page. IF the file is coming from some other program, then other methods of working might need to be thought out.

Now, the original poster was referening a linked Revit File. I would hope that we would be informed early on if a consultant was not actually using Revit, but getting it translated out of a different program.

I guess I'm curious. To my knowledge, there is no other application capable of saving directly into the RVT file format. If there is, could you tell what it is?

[ggrenier]

i am having the same issue - i am working with another architectural firm and we link each other's model into our own. i copied their grid into my model. when my model is linked into theirs, any dimensions that reference the grid disappear. i tried both the attachment and the overlay methods of linking. i tried leaving their link linked into our model while it is being linked back into theirs.

any other clues as to why this is not working?

thanks for any help.

giselle

[twiceroadsfool]

Giselle-

They arent going to see your dimensions in their model at all, unless they set a particular view to By Linked View. Attachment and Overlay affect whether or not they see the copy of their model that is linked in to yours (redundant), but that wont affect your dimensions showing up. If THEY want to see YOUR dimensions, they need to set a specific view in their model, under VG:RVT Links, to By Linked view, and pick which of your views they would like to see.

Regarding Scott and Kwisons conversation, ive tried it, and Scotts point is still very well validated:

This isnt an issue of "Forcing a consultant to work a certain way." It also isnt an issue of "making a consultant work in Revit." The Copy Monitor tool (in the event they ARE working in Revit) is used (As Scott stated) particularly to alleviate situations such as the ones this thread is discussing.

Regarding consultants NOT in Revit, ive done various tests with the IFC file format, and overwriting the RVT file that is created in an iteritive process, when things in the IFC file have been changed. The dimensions still hold, and are associative and updatable, using Scotts exact logic: If the IFC elements are EDITED/MODIFIED, the dimensions remain and update. If the items are DELETED and RECREATED in the original authoring file (regardless of format and platform) the dimensions are deleted on reload.

Kwilson (i realize im referencing a conversation from months ago), if your consultants are that standoffish that they are so averse to using the basic principles of edit/alter over remove/recreate, then id be hesitatant to even show their model in the first place, let alone dimension to it.

Just my two cents. :)

[ggrenier]

thanks for your reply, but that isn't it - the model is linked in as a custom view, then the corresponding plan view is selected from the Linked View drop down menu.

my model is copy and pasted to the other architect's server. when it is opened we can see that the dimensions that are referenced to a grid line are gone, yet the other dimensions (referenced to objects in my model) are still there.

we're doing a circular reference - they link our model into theirs at their office and we link their model into ours at our office. after we copy and paste updated models from each other, we open the model and detach it from central. once the model is copied, it loses it's link - so when our model is pasted to their server, their link is lost.

i did copy their grids into our model, and the grids in my model are being monitored (i did not turn that off). i thought that by copying their grids into my model they would have a relationship and the dimensions would not disappear.

any ideas?

thanks a bunch.

giselle

[twiceroadsfool]

Oh, i see what youre doing now.

Are you sure your DIMENSIONS are to the grids in YOUR model (that you copy/monitored) and not to the grids in the Linked File? If theyre to the linked file, they wont see the dimensions unless they have the Model as an attachment, which i really dont think they want to do.

EDIT: Even as an attachment, i dont think that will fly. Doesnt it warn you that "The linked file XXX is the same as the host file, so it will not be loaded, etc" or something? Thats telling you that the attachment feature isnt going to work.

Basically, you can only load a file once in a session, and the instance that is opened is that once, so it wont show the circular linked file.

Verify that the dimension thats disappearing is referencing the grid in YOUR model...

[ggrenier]

the grids that the dimensions are referencing are in my model - i used copy/monitor to copy them into my model. i also turn off the workset that contains the linked model's grids, so they're not showing up in my views. the only thing i can think of is that even though i've copied the grids into my model, the dimensions are still referencing the linked model's grids, so when my model is pasted to another server it loses it's connection to it's original link and therefore loses the dimensions that are referenced to that grid.

i'm not trying to "see" the dimensions using attachment vs. overlay.

thanks for your help,

giselle

[twiceroadsfool]

No, i understand what youre trying to do...

Have you hit Edit Witness Line on the dimension and VERIFIED that its to your grid?

Also, what workset are the grids in YOUR model on? Is it a workset that is set to not be visible by default in all views? Those worksets automatically do not show up when someone else links in your model. No workset = no grid = no dimension.

Also, you said they have the VG:RVT Link set to custom in THEIR model... Do they have YOUR grids turned off under the annotations tab? If they have your grids off, the dimension isnt going to show...

[wmullett]

There are other problems that I am experiencing with linked models. We thought we would use these to move repetitive elements out of our model instead of using groups. In this case hotel rooms. This would allow us to use model and annotation elements in other projects.

So we cross linked the models. Base model into a room and room into the base model. Then we did all the annotating of the rooms in the linked model and planned on placing views on sheets in the main model so that all sheets could be produced in the main model.

Seems to work pretty well for stand alone elements. But when you dimension to a base model wall in the link, that dimension will not show up in the main model / linked view. It doesn't matter if the wall is copy/monitored and what's worse, the copy/monitored walls will not clean up automatically.

A good thought but... program doesn't like it.