FAQ's - Interior Design and Architecture - AU

[sbrown]

Dear AUGI members, I'm working on my class for this year and would like to answer the most commonly asked questions regarding integrated ID and Arch documentation in Revit.

Please post your questions here and I will try to address them in my class this year.

Thank you for your help.

Scott

Sample FAQ

1. What is the best way to show floor finish plans in revit?
2. How do you model ceilings with multiple slopes?
3. How do you do Room Finish Schedules?

[dgreen.49364]

Scott, there is so little information out there on interiors and Revit, where would one even begin with the questions?

You could almost do a start to finish tutorial on how to do interior drawings in Revit. We have an interiors department that has struggled with interiors and Revit and they ended up doing everything in 2d drafting, plans and elevations, and tagging everything with dummy tags and creating schedules in Excel and exporting those to image files and then importing those image files back into Revit.

?????????????????????????????????????

I did some research and came up with a method that involves split faces, paint tool, creating and applying finishes, tagging, schedules and so forth. I do not know for sure if it is the best method but I believe it works.

My point is, there is so little out there on interiors, you could just cover it all.
Dan

[sbrown]

We do interiors in revit. We take the approach to fully model everthing. And it works well for us. The files get large but the results are awesome. Tagging, scheduling, materials etc. So I will be showing how we approach ID projects in revit. But I would like to make sure I hit on specific questions from AUGI members. Heres a screenshot of what our models look like. the grey is a halftone Arch model linked into the ID model.

[brethomp]

I look forward to seeing this session. We do a lot of interiors work in Revit. We are slowly making the transition from using drafting elements to a fully modeled approach. It seems to take many workarounds to pull this off.

I will be interested in the caveats of splitting the model into 2 Revit files (Arch and ID). So far we have kept these in one file, but it makes for some HUGE Revit files.

How about:

Schedule keys to make generic schedules.
Material Take-off schedules for the materials/colors list.
Tagging across Revit files.

[dhurtubise]

Good topic Scott.
Add the How-To deal with external consultnant/department. In several projects interior qill either be provided by the architect.
Let me know if i can be of any help :-)

[sbrown]

Keep em coming. this is great. I was going to add a section for how to deal with ID that aren't using Revit. But only if I run out of pure revit. Do you think this would be important to cover?

[dhurtubise]

Maybe only if you run out of material ...which i really doubt :-)

[dbaldacchino]

How do you deal with different phases of the project? For example how do you show quick design iterations in SD/DD without spending too much time modeling? What are the techniques used to do quick ID studies and do you then later refine on the modeled elements when you get to CD's or do you re-model from scratch in much more detail? If you have repetitive spaces, do you fill all the spaces in or just show typical spaces only? Do you use groups for similar spaces? When do you decide to use custom families vs. using system families? EX: thin wall for tile on wall or a generic model line-based family?

[twiceroadsfool]

Id be interested to see how you Manage Content for interiors. Reason being is largely furniture.

We have ID's that change the shapes and sizes and numbers of chairs and the like, all around projects, on an hourly basis. Its quite easy to handle with parametric furniture, until we get to round tables and ellipticals and the like.

Then its easy to handle with some decent formula work done on the front end. So now the ID's can change numbers of chairs and sizes and be on their merry way.

Except then when they get to wanting to specify different chairs at different tables, youre done... Since the 4 level deep nested radial array of chairs wont let you nest a Family Type parameter to reach the chair, so you cant change the chair types like you can in a regular family.

So youre left with:

Different size tables = different families.
Different number of chairs = Manually place them
Dont use Furniture tags

Its a micro issue in the one instance, but in the macro scenario i think its interesting. It needs to be fast for them to move efficiently (Daves concern about SD/DD speed, which was the initial reason for the upfront investment in making the content work for them... Having the ID drafters save as/edit wasnt a big hit, LOL) which is why the furniture pieces work wonderfully. But it falls apart pretty fast.

[brethomp]

We have ID's that change the shapes and sizes and numbers of chairs and the like, all around projects, on an hourly basis. Its quite easy to handle with parametric furniture, until we get to round tables and ellipticals and the like...
I would suggest groups, instead of the fancy families you describe. Give them plenty of choices for chairs and tables, but as separate files. They can then combine the chairs with the table in the project using groups, making it quick and easy to change chairs or duplicate groups to have different sizes and chair options. This also gets around the scheduling issues.

[twiceroadsfool]

It works fine as groups, as long as i have enough options built and available to be as practical as the families. But they want to change the dimension to one i dont have built, and now theyre back to moving chairs around, respacing, and just generally wasting time. Its silly when the software is CAPABLE of handling the task for them.

But i guess its not handling it too well anyway, so i suppose it is what it is...

[twiceroadsfool]

Anyway, back on topic, id lov to see some of those rooms in your images Scott... Its almost worth finagling a way out to Vegas this year, LOL. Im interested in the ceilings:

Individual sloping pieces, Walls by Face, or Component Families? Or Roofs? Or curtain systems?

[cdatechguy]

Our ID folk are creating furniture in 2D only. Unless its something special to be seen in a 3D view it ain't happening.

But we do use 3D Extrusions for stuff like tile and wainscoting... Although I am looking into using a curtain wall for a wainscoting alternative. We also keep all 3D interior objects on its own workset so that it doesn't have to be loaded for everyone.

As for room and finish schedules I had to create a bunch of shared parameters to specify more information for each room than what is standard. Such as base, floor, wall (N,S,E,W), etc finish and materials.

Originally this was created as a schedule only, but now they can go to each room and add the information there, or still add it to the schedule. Comes in handy when they can grab multiple rooms and set the finishes for all of them at once instead of line by line.

[wmullett]

I use stacked thin walls for tile and wainscots... join with the wall it is applied to and opening will cut.

[sbrown]

Thank you for all your questions. I'm getting psyched now. I've got answers to most of them. I'm glad you are all dealing with similiar issues to mine. The big question that I've answered one way but I'm open to finding others is in regards to levels. Ie Do you use a Level 1 - FF and Level 1 - TOS(top of Substrate or structure). like I do. Or do you use one level and just move your structure down. this question is very important to answer in the begining of a project. Because your ceilings will get tagged automatically by the level they are on. So if a ceiling is placed on level 1 and level 1 is actually the structural slab, then ID will find out they actually have less clearance then they thought. Also doors. Doors need to be placed on the FF floor level or else they will need to get under cut or trust that the contractor actually places the header higher than specified. Note this isn't importants with just carpet and VCT type flooring but when you deal with Marble and Wood it becomes very important.

What do you guys/girls do?

[wmullett]

Level 1 is level 1 - period. That is pretty much the standard.

Structure can be / usually is - something else. But ... say you have a concrete floor with finishes. The finishes are always on top. So when we say finish floor, we usually don't always mean that - it is nominal. Carpet is above that and thin tile is above that. Thicker tiles are usually in a depressed area. Walls sit on the "finish floor".

[twiceroadsfool]

wmullett, i think thats exactly why Scott is bringing it up.

On most jobs, it wont matter. heck, on most work i do, i can leave "Level 1 as level 1", and most people wont notice the discrepancy. Doors will get ordered full height, and will get put in correctly.

But they ARE wrong on the drawings. And if you have complex casework joins, detail alignments, etc. in your project (That looks like a hotel with a lot of detailing, in scotts images) those alignments will get whacked if you just "use level 1 as level 1."

On the Interiors Project im doing right now, we used the T/O Slabs from the Architectural Model when we started the ID model, but in hindsight i was rushing that day and wouldnt do that again. Id put in the T/O Slabs with CM, then id place Finish levels above them and lock them. Then id make new PLANS, since the Plans remember which level they were created from, and place all new objects on THAT level, which is ANNOYING, hehehe.

Which then ALSO begets the issue (Scott, id love to hear how you handle this) of "What does the level represent?" In some way it almost makes sense to use TO Slab, since its *technically* the only accurate and CONSISTANT datum. Will i have a TO Fin Flr CT1, TO Fin Flr Wd3? And so on? That the Floors are top down is interesting, in that regard. Im not saying its wrong, im saying its interesting.

Compounding THAT, is placing objects after the fact. As i said, I would make views based on the levels, so that items dont end up *in* the floors.... But what is one to do with a 1 inch thick wd floor, next to polished concrete (no thickness), next to a room with carpet, lol...

Certainly offset all of the items and their placement, but it would be interesting if we could have a method of placing items that read the lowest possible face, without making everything face/floor based...

[sbrown]

The beauty of linking and having the ID own all floor finishes and ceilings is you create levels in their model that are FF levels and then when linked you can move them up the thickness of the floor finish. And then you find out if they left enough room for ducts and lights:) The doors are the tricky one because both ID and ARch want to own them.

[cdatechguy]

There is a good one.....Floor Finishes?

We have used fill patterns on the Floor Finish view....downside, cannot see pattern in 3D views

Split Face....Split face is a....well in our office its as bad a curse word, but we tried it on the floors at one point and filled in the material.

Because I use stone in my projects I created different floors with different floor pattern/materials..and then join them back into one. Works okay but when I get to stair sections I run into problems.

Thinking of going with the floor on top of floor method next time around. That way I can hide a floor if needed such as in a section where I need something to start from the structure to structure and not finish to finish.

[twiceroadsfool]

There is a good one.....Floor Finishes?

We have used fill patterns on the Floor Finish view....downside, cannot see pattern in 3D views

Split Face....Split face is a....well in our office its as bad a curse word, but we tried it on the floors at one point and filled in the material.

Because I use stone in my projects I created different floors with different floor pattern/materials..and then join them back into one. Works okay but when I get to stair sections I run into problems.

Thinking of going with the floor on top of floor method next time around. That way I can hide a floor if needed such as in a section where I need something to start from the structure to structure and not finish to finish.

We use actual floors that are just the thickness of the Finish material, with model patterns on them. Split Face is a no-no here as well. As is paint. As is Create-in-Place, LOL...

[sbrown]

Yes we use all real floors for all finish flooring. NO filled regions or split faces. Its much easier to use real floors as you can use the pick wall tool, you can put them on a workset, you can overide them to be dashed in Architectural wall sections. You can join floors together so they cut out as required. You can tag the finish. We even use a sep floor type for accent tiles, just place one and copy and array as needed. then you can tag the accent sep from the field.

[cliff collins]

Scott,

Love your "purist" approach. Hard to get everyone to buy in, follow thru
and expect the added upfront effort--but well worth it downstream and
produces a true BIM.

Applause!!!!

cheers

[travismv702230]

Scott--
Read with interest your thoughts about floor structure/finish floor. I'm starting to deal with this now in apartment units. One group thinks the really detailed way like you discussed and the other is all like whatever. I lean more towards your approach but I'm just getting into it.

-Travis

[dhurtubise]

I don't even see why not use Scott's way?
Never did otherwise, never will.

[wmullett]

We use the thin floor for all hard pattern floors like tile but we usually place it in our interiors worksets so we can control visibility easily. We don't worry about it showing in sections and for detail sections, we use detail components.

Obviously, doors, walls and the like are hosted on the structural floor as that is where they are built. And we don't worry about this thin floor in relation to plumbing fixtures / counters, cabinets and furnishings. Those are placed on the structural floor and dimensioned from that as the "finish" floor.

[markusb]

One of the big things for me is how to do Finish Legends and Schedules?

[sbrown]

I will definately cover finish legends and schedules. can you be more specific as to what problems you are running into or what goal you are shooting for. I find some people want to just have "dumb" schedules and some want "real" schedules and there is a place for both usually. Please ellaborate on your specific issue and I'll see if I have an answer.

[cliff collins]

Scott:

Some worthy topics for ID in Revit:

1. Linking ID models
2. Shared coordinates
3. List of Worksets for ID
4. Room Finish Schedules and Materials Lists
5. Lighting--coord. w/ Revit MEP?
6. View Templates for ID
7. Custom View setting for Linked Models
8. Painting on materials -vs- built-in materials/stacked walls/split face, etc.
9. FF&E Packages/ "Control Books" for hospitality work.
10. Groups-vs-Families in hotel towers/multi-family projects

cheers......

[cdatechguy]

Ahh....Hotel/multi-family conditions.....would like to know more about how people handle that.

For a predesign I used groups....but it was rather crude, but was extremely helpful to switch out units for a different one.

[sbrown]

Since my main experience is Hotels and Condo products, that will be where the examples are coming from. I think if you can do that type work any single building is a piece of cake from a document standpoint.

[SCShell]

Hey Scott,
Great idea posting here!
I agree with making FFL the concrete and then modeling the finishes. Details and schedules/tags work better.

My Question is:
I use keyed schedules for finishes; however, I have problems when the floor or wall in a particular room has more than one finish. Not counting simple "comment" type situations like wainscot, carpet border etc.

Look forward to seeing you in December!
Say "hi" to Jim and Seth
Steve

[sbrown]

Steve, I think schedules for finishes are old school and shouldn't be used in a revit world because they can't be generated from the model. That being said there are certainly work arounds for your issue. I've seen something like WD/PTD then a Notes column with a (1,5,8) and then at the bot. of the schedule you have notes that describe what (1, 5 and 8 are). Ie 1. Wood Wainscot up to 3'-0" with Paint above.

Stuff like that. But I prefer just "See Plans and Elevations"

[bbebart]

I am curious to see some of the responses and FAQ that you get on this. Personally, I am not yet convinced that Revit is a better tool for doing large corporate interiors projects versus autocad architect.

I am an architect who has have done corporate interiors work for 25 years. Since June I have been learning Revit and using it for residential projects (old fashioned freestanding houses). I am convinced that Revit is a terrific tool for the residential work but corporate interiors projects are another animal.

The reason is that you don't need most of Revit's powerful scheduling and 3D tools on large scale interiors tenant build-out projects. For instance: most of the time the ceiling is at 9-0" above the floor and flat, most of the doors are 3'-0" x 8'-11". Most of the walls are painted whatever is designated as PT-01, the floor finish is CPT-01, the base is RB-01. On projects like this you draw very few elevations - just the exceptions to the typical condition - and even then only the exceptions that are not easily inferable from the plans. You don't do finish schedules. Instead you have a finish legend to define the paint types etc and on a finish plan you outline the walls that are painted or finished anything other than PT-01. You never do a dumb architects room finish schedule and designate the N,S,E,W wall finish.

I know that many firms are mandating RevIt use from the top down and some clients are requiring Revit for their projects - and for most core and shell projects it makes sense and is more efficient - but for large interiors build-outs I would stick with the 2D as much as possible because the 3D is unnecessary and creates unneeded work.

[sbrown]

I'm not convinced revit is the best tool for ID either. Its actually a very difficult tool to use from interiors. It wasn't created with ID in mind and so it leaves a lot to be desired. But what you are describing would be an example of the type of project you could realize great returns on in Revit. Just because revit can do things, doesn't mean you have to. Its much harder to do a residential project in revit than a corporate interiors in my opinion. I think all firms are realizing that revit is an amazing tool. Its NOT necessarily faster. Its more complete. Is that good?? everyone has to answer that for themselves and their clients.

[cstanley]

TI projects are indeed a challenge. Some projects that are so small are very difficult, say when the entire fee is $5000, but you do many of these. typically the backgrounds exist in .dwg, and it just doesn't make a lot of sense to make it all happen in Revit, particularly when the deliverable required is so...underwhelming.

OTOH, I would be very curious about the management of the materials library and the materials scheduling aspect, if, for instance you were doing a 1.5-2 million sq ft. 800-900 bed hospital... modeled data will become difficult even when broken up over many different interiors models, equipment models, Shell/core, structural, and MEP models.

when this is the case, the management of the library, naming conventions, modeled vs. tabular info gets unwieldy quickly. I, too, would be very interested in seeing methods used in hospitality translating into healthcare.

I would also like to see/discuss the linked ID model to the ARCH, and how the scheduling/documentation passes across for documentation.

[SCShell]

But I prefer just "See Plans and Elevations"

Hey Scott,
Now I don't feel so "Revit Challenged". I did 2 or 3 jobs fighting with Finish Schedules back when I first started using Revit. Ever since, I just model it all and show everything graphically on interior elevations, details and partial sections & plan callouts.
You gotta love modeling. Have a great weekend
Steve

[erick]

Scott - Thanks for bringing this topic to AU. I was there last year hoping to bring back some knowledge for our ID department and was very disappointed.

I agree with Cliff's list. We have be considering using separate Arch and ID models but have run into some documentation issues, so I would love to hear more about how you are using that.

Finish Plans and Furniture Plans are working well for our group. The big issue for us is Interior Elevations. Projects with a lot of pilasters, moulding (Wall Sweeps, in-place sweeps, etc...), ceiling details, tile patterns etc, etc.... They are modeling most of it like what you showed, but the elevations still need work. The Linework Tool just doesn't get it done, so they have resorted to a lot of drafting lines, masking regions, filled regions, etc. on top of model geometry to get elevations to read well.

[Haden]

Personally, I am not yet convinced that Revit is a better tool for doing large corporate interiors projects versus autocad architect.

I think after you use Revit for a little longer, you may decide like many of us that Revit is a better tool for doing just about anything than AutoCad Architecture is. Revit creates one database file containing the building information, and regardless of how little of its advanced features you need to use, all coordination is easier, even if it's just placing plan views on sheets. Especially for commercial interiors, the simplicity of the forms only means you have less work to do, not more.

I would encourage you to stay with it, and just remember not to get caught up in doing things that the project does not require. All the best to you!

[cdchristian]

We struggle with documenting finishes. If they are generic enough, and the project is substantial, we will use room keys with finish information embedded in the room. In a perfect world we would be able to create finish legends and schedules using the finishes in the rooms as will as and finishes that are painted onto walls, floors, etc.
We are open to changing the way that we annotate finishes, but need to know the best direction to take on future projects.

[sbrown]

As I said before, schedules are a tool used in the past to indicate things that weren't drawng. Now that you can easily create plans and elevations of each space and actually note the finish that way I tend to think you shouldn't use schedules for room finishes. With the exception of very simple or repeatative type finsihes.

[barrie.sharp]

I have alot of issues that could be covered by this, I'm trying to decide how to model finishes. Was the tutorial/FAQ posted anywhere?

[twiceroadsfool]

As I said before, schedules are a tool used in the past to indicate things that weren't drawng. Now that you can easily create plans and elevations of each space and actually note the finish that way I tend to think you shouldn't use schedules for room finishes. With the exception of very simple or repeatative type finsihes.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Fighting the flat-earth society on this issues currently. LOL. :)

[sbrown]

the class hasn't happened yet. so no, the handout isn't posted anywhere. It will be available after AU.

[barrie.sharp]

Looking forward to it!

[bbebart]

We struggle with documenting finishes. If they are generic enough, and the project is substantial, we will use room keys with finish information embedded in the room. In a perfect world we would be able to create finish legends and schedules using the finishes in the rooms as will as and finishes that are painted onto walls, floors, etc.
We are open to changing the way that we annotate finishes, but need to know the best direction to take on future projects.
I always had a problem with using finish keys placed within a room and made them a forbidden tool in our department. I called them "Finish Bombs". Kind of like a roach bomb. Drop the key onto the finsih plan and - BAM - all of the rooms wall surfaces are now PT-02, Flooring CP-03, all base VB-02. Efficient yes. But I found that people shut their brains off and just started dropping bombs.

Instead they had to draw a line parallel to the wall surface and indicate wall and base finish test in the line. Floor finish was a separate tag. You could copy the line from room to room but had to make minor adjustments for room configurations and this minor step caused people to keep their brains turned on and catch exceptions and oddities like colums. Is the round colum the same finish as the rest of the room? This led to fewer errors. Of course this only works with uniform finish from base to ceiling.