Sinks, Countertops and Sink Holes

[kmarquis]

The sink holes and sinks in Revit is a management nightmare..the counter gets longer and the sink hole moves, the sink doesn't line up perfectly with the hole...
How do people handle counters with sink holes? I'm proposing to my company that we eliminate sink holes all together and just use 2D lines but they're concerned about the "what if we need a 3D view" aspect. Just wanted some suggestions. Thanks.

[cliff collins]

You have to use dimensions/parameters/ref. planes to make sure the sinks "move"
with the sink holes--i.e. make sure the family "flexes" properly when changing the "distance
from end" parameter for the sink and sink hole.

I have seen a family that flexed properly this way--and unfortunately many that did not,
as you are experiencing!

cheers......

[kmarquis]

It sounds like you're nesting the sink into the counter family. I work in Healthcare and we have multipe types of sinks so what has been done in the past is a countertop family with a hole and the sink is placed in the hole in the project. Do you still have the same suggestion for this type of situation?

[cliff collins]

Yes--nesting the sink is probably better. This will give you more confidence in controlling
their positions.

cheers.....

[Scott Womack]

The other trick is to place/constrain a reference plane in the countertop family with a "strong" setting, in the center of the sing opening. Almost all plumbing fixtures have a center reference plane that defines theyr insertion point. After the countertop has a reference plane in the moddle of the opening, the sink can be locked to the plane in the countertop. Thus when the length of the countertop is change, and the "hole" moves, the sink will move also.

This permits different types/manufacturer's sinks to be used without haveing to nest them into the countertop family.

[twiceroadsfool]

Ours are all Nested and parameterized in the "array" family, so you can change spacing and number of sinks, etc.

But revit is terrible about the HOLE in the sink itself. A Face hosted family cannot go in to ANOTHER family and CUT IT. Without that, you have to basically keep a different "Array" family for every SHAPE sink you have. Or you have to have every possible void drawn in ahead of time, which is rediculous.

We have a GREAT tool called "Family Type parameters" that would handle this BEAUTIFULLY if a Nested family could have a void that cut the parent family.

We need this. In a big way. Bathroom sinks, kitchen counters and sinks, Specialty Door Hardware, Electrical equipment mounted in casework, etc.

[Munkholm]

Aaron.

When building your sinks, start out with a Generic Facebased template, change it to Plumbing Category (and maybe share it), model the sink and the void, load it into your Casework countertop, and... you guessed it, the void from the sink, WILL cut the countertop :beer:

Karen.

Using the above method, you´ll defenetly want to nest in the sinks, add a label to them, so that the sink family or type can be replaced at anytime within the project... Have fun ;-)

[twiceroadsfool]

Whoooooops. I stand corrected! I wasnt aware Face based familes would cut other families. I thought they would only cut Face HOSTS in the model.

Annnnnnnnd rebuild time...

[t1.shep]

Good suggestions...However, is there a reason you need to show the hole in the countertops? Are you providing the shop drawings to the countertop MFGR's and need to locate the hole for them? Because the default counter with sink hole is Revit was creating the issues that Karen was facing, I just use a plain countertop and put a sink on it. As long as the sink is a top mount or has a masking region in it, the sink should show up just fine. I guess now that I'm writing this and thinking about it, the sink hole is really only needed for under-mount sinks, because a masking region wouldn't show it correctly in a 3d. But top mount sinks behave just fine without a sink hole in the counter.

[twiceroadsfool]

If youre doing any kind of 3d views or renderings, you need to cut the sink. We show a LOT of perspectives in our documents...

[kmarquis]

We work on Healthcare buildings and a majority of our work has lab sinks. If we need a 3D view more than likely there will be a sink visible in the view.
I had the idea once to make countertops from floor slabs and the backsplash a slab edge then make sinks floor hosted but people didn't like that since it wasn't in the right category.

[Munkholm]

Annnnnnnnd rebuild time...

Don´t feel bad... to be honest, I´ve not been building my sinks this way either :shock:
The trick just came to mind when reading Karens post... I´ve used it in a similar situation, which I can´t even remember ;-)

So, i´m with you: Leeeeett´ss geeeet reeaaady to rebuild (rumble ?) :beer:

[kmarquis]

Aaron.

When building your sinks, start out with a Generic Facebased template, change it to Plumbing Category (and maybe share it), model the sink and the void, load it into your Casework countertop, and... you guessed it, the void from the sink, WILL cut the countertop :beer:

Karen.

Using the above method, you´ll defenetly want to nest in the sinks, add a label to them, so that the sink family or type can be replaced at anytime within the project... Have fun ;-)

I can't get this to work. Is there any way you could upload an example of how you got this to work? I really appreciate your help.

Karen

[twiceroadsfool]

Don´t feel bad... to be honest, I´ve not been building my sinks this way either :shock:
The trick just came to mind when reading Karens post... I´ve used it in a similar situation, which I can´t even remember ;-)

So, i´m with you: Leeeeett´ss geeeet reeaaady to rebuild (rumble ?) :beer:

I thought back in the day they didnt work this way, but i may be wrong. I have a nice flexible countertop lav array, and i keep two versions for twi different sinks. I built them when i thought it wasnt possible. Of course, in retrospect, i may have built them before FB families entirely, and that may be why...

[Munkholm]

I can't get this to work. Is there any way you could upload an example of how you got this to work? I really appreciate your help.

Karen

Karen, sorry for the delay, but have been real bussy :O)

I just made this quick example for you to reverse engineer - It contains two generic sinks, both build on the Generic Facebased tamplate, and later changed to the Plumbing Category - The Sinks are nested into the countertop family, which have a label parameter under "construction" called "Sink Type", this is what makes it possible to choose a different sink for each type of the countertop family.

Hope that helps :beer:

[vennix.239720]

Sadly a generic face based family with voids will not cut an in place family as I found out today :(
funny thing happens when I nest a lintel family with voids in a window family which has its own voids.
In the family editor it all looks okay but very strange things happen in the model.

Geert

[Munkholm]

Geert, have you tried making the Lintel Family "shared" ?

[vennix.239720]

I thought sharing the family only enabled sub components to be scheduled
You got me curious and I did some more tests.I got it to work in the project it was created for. I stand corrected. it can be done.
But the window refuses to be inserted in a new project.
Inserting it in a wall consisting sweeps creates chaos anyhow.
Take a look at the family if you are interested.

[kmarquis]

Karen, sorry for the delay, but have been real bussy :O)

I just made this quick example for you to reverse engineer - It contains two generic sinks, both build on the Generic Facebased tamplate, and later changed to the Plumbing Category - The Sinks are nested into the countertop family, which have a label parameter under "construction" called "Sink Type", this is what makes it possible to choose a different sink for each type of the countertop family.

Hope that helps :beer:

Thank you so much! I was just missing the step of cutting the void into the Face. I really appreciate your help.

Karen

[twiceroadsfool]

I thought back in the day they didnt work this way, but i may be wrong. I have a nice flexible countertop lav array, and i keep two versions for twi different sinks. I built them when i thought it wasnt possible. Of course, in retrospect, i may have built them before FB families entirely, and that may be why...

Thought id bring this post back from the dead. I was right... They dont work this way. Not if you try to make the face based family part of a parametric array. The first one you place is placed "By face" and CAN cut the countertop, but every other instance in the array becomes Workplane hosted, and doesnt cut. If you edit the group to change it, it reverts the FIRST instance back to workplane hosted that wont cut the array.

Very very very long support request filed.

[Munkholm]

Agreed, it would be nice if we could array/cut the suckers too :-) But Karen never mentioned arrays... never the less, let´s see who makes it to the wish list first.... I´ll race you.... (Munkholm 4 years old)

[twiceroadsfool]

Wish list nothin. I Support Requested it. It shouldnt be a "wish list" item. The CURRENT program dictates: Face Based families can cut their hosts. And Array groups cant be different.

It breaks its own rule, and FORCES array groups to STAY grouped, and be different, with a different host, and a different workplane, and no cutting.

Im not one to slam development, by any means. But its not a wish. Its broken.

I remain hopeful that the Factory will see it that way as well, in the spirit of what the Face Based Family was MEANT to do. Support request text was as follows:




Support-

Here are the two files MENTIONED in the Support Request. Also, please note there is a third family: CW-Lav-Countertop Array-WH.rfa

THIS family functions exactly as intended, EXCEPT it doesnt cut the countertop. (This is our finished product, except i mistakenly used the –UH (unhosted) version of the sink, instead of the -FB (face based) version, which i sadly did not realize. It should have been a simple replace and reparameterize, but something intrinsically doesnt work, with the face based family and the array.

The Nested Face Based Sink in the other two examples, uses an OPENING for the hole. Ive read on AUGI it doesnt work any better with a VOID.

Issue 1: How is the Group able to be different as it proceeds down the array? The first one will cut the Countertop, and be placed by face. Once arrayed, the subsequent copies are Placed by Workplane, and Not Cutting. I understand that theyre not cutting because theyre not hosted to the face, but i cant understand how thats possible since theyre Grouped.

Issue 2: Why do the parameters work in one situation (not connected to the face) and suddenly fail in the other family (placed on face) when nothing about the constraint has changed, only the host for the nested family has changed?

This family functioning is absolutely vital to us functioning EFFICIENTLY in revit, during Design and production. Please tell me what im missing in the above families, to make the Face Based family behave as expected/intended (that all face based families in all similar group types will cut the geometry of the countertop and not break the constraints).

In addition, the below doesnt have information pertaining to the actual Support Request, but this is how much this issue affects us, in the day to day. Its not meant to gripe, but its vital that development understand how important and critical this issue is, in dollars and sense.

Designers and production staff alike have SEVERAL issues to combat, when laying out Kitchens and Bathrooms.

1. How many sinks do i need?
2. What kind of sinks are they?
3. What size Countertop do i need?
4. Where in the countertop does the Sink/Sinks go?

In addition to those 4 questions, the ones below in Red, are simply the issues Revit creates that compound this process, which mean making redundant families. This takes the process of kitchen/restroom layout from Minutes to HOURS.

1. How many sinks do i need?
- Is it 1 or more than 1? That means a second set of families. (One set with 1, one set with an array).

2. What kind of sinks are they?
- This will mean a different set of families for each sink type, since Face Based is the only way to cut the countertop, but they dont work in this example. Otherwise, we have to make them an Unhosted Family (in the functioning example), and we have to manually trace the sink hole with the void arrayed in the Parent family. ***Note: This is not only a huge time waster, but it also dictates that all designers understand how to manipulate this family = a bust.

3. What size Countertop do i need?
4. Where in the countertop does the Sink/Sinks go?

- You have a couple of options: Have a countertop with a parametric hole completely independent of the sink family itself, or something flexible such as these examples to meet all possible needs.

Since i believe (i apologize, this isnt meant to be a rant, but i want you to understand how critical this issue is, pertaining to actual Office Costs and Project Budgets) in making the Project teams USING revit efficient, here is my take on the above:

Is it 1 or more than 1? Through complex trickery, i can overcome this in one family. (I shouldnt have to, but i can). Array value less than one solution is in the families sent. (Changes array value to 2, turns off visibility, and has another instance placed). And thats necessary. Try explainint to a designer that because they didnt have room in the space, and they need to go from 2 sinks to 1, that they have to completely replace the family with a different one. We'll still call this Green (not a problem) since im willing to- and have- done it already.

What kind of sinks are they? Well, again, if Face Based doesnt work, i am (literally) stuck building a variant of this, for every manufacturer sink out there, that the designers want to use. As mentioned above, if the TEAM knows how to edit the family they can, but this is confounded by the Array workaround: The family is much more intimidating for them to look at, with formulas, and sinks overlapping, etc. So they give up and close it. So this one is on me, i have to make redundant copies.

3. What size Countertop do i need?
4. Where in the countertop does the Sink/Sinks go?

I had the occasion to work on a tight deadline last night with a team that was short on budget, racing to get a set of drawings out. (Not because of Revit, mind you, but thats our jobs...). It was all going smoothly, until the sinks had to go in. Now, it was my fault for having my Lav array built incorrectly, with the –UH version. So when i loaded it, it didnt work correctly with the appropriate Face Based Sink. They had 4 different sink types to use (healthcare job, many diferent layouts) so i made the call that we would go with the OOTB (Countertop with Sink Hole) and loose and/or Face Based Sinks, instead of me messing with 4 or 5 families to get the array to work with individual voids.

I watched them place each sink, taking minutes to align/adjust/align/change opening size, etc. for every countertop, before placing each sink. It broke my efficiency-obsessed-heart. Line Based, Arrays, Face Based, and constraints have made it so i can make MOST things for them, obsessively fast and profit-producing.

And per the Revit documentation, Face Based only cuts the HOST it is on/in. Im obeying that rule, as the first instance of the sink is working.Why subsequently arrayed sinks dont work, im not sure. (BTW, please forward me to Jeff hanson. I went to the 2011 Help and searched for "Face Based" and it said "No results found." Really???)

Heres the bottom line: If this issue is fixed (or if you describe what i did wrong to correct the family) our team gets ONE family for every type of counter: 0 sinks, 1 sink, 2 sinks and up. It can be the same countertop for straight, L, and U shaped configurations. (Ill bite the bullet and make an arc one, since we cant have "bendable families" like RST and Bar joists.... hint hint.). They can then use a Family Template ive set up with the correct reference planes, to download Manufacturers content (******, but looks good), stuff it in to the face based template, save, load, and swap out the sinks, in the super complex array.

Everyone wins.
Please help.

[ron.sanpedro]

Bit Aaron, Revit is all about features that don't work with other features. Try combining Edit Profile and Unlocked wall layers, for example. Obviously no one at Autodesk sees any benefit in developers actually talking to each other, and the examples of poor integration of tools would run to a small chapbook at least.
My guess is that addressing these "subtleties" ranks only slightly higher than replacing the TP in the executive bathrooms with pine cones on the corporate priorities list. Put another way, there will be a new product for Autodesk to buy and milk before this stuff gets fixed. ;)

Gordon

[twiceroadsfool]

Maybe, maybe not. I respect your opinion (sometimes), but doing nothing BUT slamming then, doesnt help anything. Ive had positive experiences when im able to validate to them why a problem is more serious than they think it is, so i tried doing that.

Will it work? Im not sure.
Will they fix it? Im not sure.

But i know this. Nothing comes out of deconstructive criticism without a direction to go in.

Back on the original topic though, i REALLY hope they get this issue straightened out. Theres a great potential in Face based Families. Except.... they dont work.

[ron.sanpedro]

Back on the original topic though, i REALLY hope they get this issue straightened out. Theres a great potential in Face based Families. Except.... they dont work.

Agreed. But I think the bug where elevation symbols get switched around is a much bigger problem, and they seem totally lacking in urgency there, so something that just sucks seems unlikely to attract much attention.
If you see results in less than three years then I will concede that demanding competency is less efficacious than saying pretty please. ;)

Happy weekend!
Gordon

[bulletproofdesign]

I know the problem is already resolved,

However, this has made me revisit an old issue, and you guys helped me to fix it.

I have tried in the past nesting sinks into the countertop family. I encountered the problem of having to show the countertop when drawing 3D axons of plumbing. I did not realise that if your sink family is 'shared' then you can turn off casework, and the sink remains....

Revit teaches me something new everyday!!

[jsteinhauer]

I know the problem is already resolved,

However, this has made me revisit an old issue, and you guys helped me to fix it.

I have tried in the past nesting sinks into the countertop family. I encountered the problem of having to show the countertop when drawing 3D axons of plumbing. I did not realise that if your sink family is 'shared' then you can turn off casework, and the sink remains....

Revit teaches me something new everyday!!

Does anyone know if this is only fixed in 2012? I am trying to make our standard restroom vanity with sinks, but the array breaks in 2011. I might not be on the latest service release for 2011.

Thank you in advance.

Jeff S.

[antman]

Jeff, thank you for bringing this post back to the top. I have discovered that you do not need to nest the sink family into the countertop family to be able to cut the hole into the countertop. You can just use the Cut tool. The sink can be on the plumbing fixtures category, and the countertop on the casework category. There are a couple notable exceptions. As of 2012, you still can't cut an array, and you can't cut an in-place family.

[stefan.l]

Aaron.

When building your sinks, start out with a Generic Facebased template, change it to Plumbing Category (and maybe share it), model the sink and the void, load it into your Casework countertop, and... you guessed it, the void from the sink, WILL cut the countertop :beer:

Karen.

Using the above method, you´ll defenetly want to nest in the sinks, add a label to them, so that the sink family or type can be replaced at anytime within the project... Have fun ;-)

Munkholm
I just read this old but helpful post, and have one banal question for you.
How does one "add a label" to a nested family, in order to enable switching sink family or type?
I'd really like to join in the fun. Thanks!

[jsteinhauer]

Within the family editor, select a placed instance of the sink family. Up at the top (default location), there is a place to add a label, similar to when containing dimensions. You sink should be set to "Shared" within the sink family.