An idea about tying specs to Revit

[Wes Macaulay]

Hi everyone.

Dimitri and I were brainstorming at an ungodly hour last night and I'm wondering what you people think about this.

Managing specs is a pain. You don't know if you've got all the relevant sections that you need for the project... did you forget a section? How could Revit help with this?

In general either objects (like toilets and grab bars) or materials drive specs. What I envision is a parameter for materials AND objects called Related Specification Section or something like that which would be tracked in a Specifications Schedule.

To create the spec schedule, Revit would check if the objects or materials are being used and only include used materials and objects in the schedule. Perhaps the spec schedule could hyperlink to a chosen location so that a DWF of the project could include a pointer to a URL where the spec is located. I don't envision specs in DWF format since DWF seems to be slower to put text up than PDF, so maybe the DWF of the drawings and spec schedules could point to a PDF spec section somewhere.

Uniformat codes are an approximation of what spec sections are needed, and e-Specs only deals with assemblies and not family objects in the database anyway, so it's always seemed like a half-baked solution...

I dunno guys -- what think you?

[Wes Macaulay]

Ok, so don't all talk at once :mrgreen:

Or are specs really that boring to everyone? They're boring to me too, so I'm trying to think of some way Revit can help me manage this mess...

[gmak]

I like the idea and I'd love to have it in there, but there are probably some practical issues that make it quite complicated. (I'm not a programmer, so I'm making some assumptions here...)

In the UK we generally use the NBS system for specification, and in the US there is a different classification system, and Australia, European countries, etc. It seems like this could become a real 'hydra' of a situation trying to make Revit compatible with all the different standards.

[JamesVan]

What about www.e-specs.com?

[Dimitri Harvalias]

In the UK we generally use the NBS system for specification, and in the US there is a different classification system, and Australia, European countries, etc. It seems like this could become a real 'hydra' of a situation trying to make Revit compatible with all the different standards.
Not being familiar with the NBS system at all, I'm wondering if they aren't all based on some form of 'Master Format' i.e. numbered sections and sub-sections. Is this a real colonial view from this side of the pond or is this the situation globally? Someone enlighten me.

[cliff collins]

Check out E Specs for Revit. Looks like a really good program which will use Revit's
database to generate spec sections.

We are evaluating it now in "demo" mode. E-Specs are giving their show at Autodesk University currently. Well worth checking out.

happy spec writing.....

cbc

[MikeJarosz]

We had a meeting with the e-specs people. Got our chief spec writer all excited.

In principle, it's a good idea. Now that we have object oriented CAD data, the next logical step is linking those objects to text information. What e-specs does is export the Revit model to OBDB and take it from there (I believe they use WORD).

The results were good, but I bet more hard coded hooks in the Revit model meant specifically for specs would make it really shine.

[Scott D Davis]

The 'hard coded hooks' for E-specs are the CSI numbers assigned to everything in Revit. You can assign a very general CSI section, and get a very general spec section, or assign a much more detailed CSI number to describe the assembly in more detail, and then your spec will be edited automatically to be more specific.

[Wes Macaulay]

I was talking with David Conant about this and one of the problems with my idea is that spec systems across the planet divide the building differently than the Masterformat system does.

E-specs doesn't provide the granularity I'm looking for. I'll look some more at the CSI stuff -- maybe there's enough in there?

[gmak]

e-SPECS looks promising, but it appears to be a one-way process. You send things out of Revit, but not back in. So anything added in e-SPECS doesn't get added to the Revit DB. Now maybe I missed something, but this means that you can't really develop specifications as the project develops because you can't save information back to Revit or can you?

[PeterJ]

You're waiting for the API to be opened up, guys....

[MikeJarosz]

Seems like a number of threads are converging here... Check out the discussion on programming.

[Wes Macaulay]

The initial version of the API will NOT be able to drive geometry; the next version after that will. So you could conceivably tie specs in some sort of database to data in Revit and have it modify the Revit database through the API.

The question is how information outside Revit is keyed to pieces of data inside the Revit model. Developing a schema that works for all is going to be tough.

Can other people from around the world describe how their spec system breaks up a building? Masterformat breaks things into 16 sections at present, with a product (either a material or an object) having its own Masterformat number. Each material then gets its own spec section, or if it's a basic commodity (like wood studs) it might be grouped with another spec (like gypsum board). Masterformat does not really look at assemblies -- it deals with the components therein.

[trent59822]

We had a prior discussion about combining notation tool with multi component materials. For example, you could have an attribute for gypsum board material which states 5/8" GYPSUM BOARD PER SECTION 09250." And then the section 09250 could be a hot link to the specification. If those two items were linked together Revit would be very powerful. What do you guys think?

[GuyR]

For a universal system you need to find a way to describe a neutral format in Revit that allows you to reference other (multiple) formats.

I'm not sure how you could do that in Revit though.... :-)

Guy

[rhys]

[QUOTE=metanoia]
Can other people from around the world describe how their spec system breaks up a building?
Wes
If you want the NBS /CIsfb and now I belive Unicode formats I can dig them out for you. Most European consultants will use them as a guide BUT they are not sacrosanct. At the end of the day this is a mapping problem which should not be impossible to solve in a generic way which would allow users around the world to use spec. data from and eventually to REVIT. I would see this as like the Layer mapping when exporting Revit maps to AIA standard layers or BSXXXX layer standards, or other "world "standards The BS layer standard took years of CAD managers time - 15 years or so ago, working I believe through our one and only AUGI!!
I for one am more interested in the availability of the data in whatever standard format - mapping is not really the problem provided the granularity if reasonably "fine". Even if its not - in database terms it's often posible to add apparent granularity by comparing 2 or more data tables. For example one spec system might use building materials as its core list, another building elements. In one "wood doors" get speced under wood, in the other under doors. Not too hard to map either way.

[Thomas Cummings]

Wes,

I ran across this link while googling and thought I would make everyone aware of it.

http://www.e-specs.com/especs-revit.html

[Scott D Davis]

E-specs is awesome! They were an exhibitor at AU and the booth seemed to get a bunch of attention.

[Thomas Cummings]

Scott,

Was there any indication of cost at the E-Spec booth? There is only a link to a request for a quote on their website.

[noah]

I think specs are incredibly important. If Revit (or any company) is claiming to be a BIM tool than the specs MUST be included, and why would it be anywhere else? Specs are a part of the building information. A database is a database and what you do with the data is not hard (formatting for different standards). e-spec looks good but I believe the cost is as much or more than Revit itself. I really think if Revit had a CSI parameter for every object you could just create a schedule grouped by CSI division and export to an excel document. I don't think it needs to be 2 way - would be nice. I'm very new to Revit but this is one of the very first things I'm going to explore. So far I don't see any reason why I could customize Revit to do this myself. Am I missing something?

Also, codes notes are related and probably even more important than specs. I would guess a number of builders can build somethign blind based on experience but it may not meet code. In NY we have to document every little detail related to the buildign code. It would be nice to be able to flag certain materials or even just detail views with additional code notes that could be pulled into a summary schedule based on the NYS Residential Code checklist. Then the inspector just reads the summary, which references specific drawing sheets.

Is anyone using Revit to document specs already (besides e-spec)? I assumed people were, so the initial thread caught me off guard.

[Wes Macaulay]

I should fire up an Access database and have a look for myself. It would be nice to know what all the different and popular spec schemas are out there... there might be a way to map it all out so that Revit can work REALLY well with ANY spec schema.

[Scott D Davis]

Thomas,

Price on E-specs is dependant on the level of product you get. E-specs basic, which comes with a short-form spec, is somewhere between $500-$1000 US. (Not exactly sure, and don't want to steer you wrong.) You can go all the way up to E-specs Enterprise, where they will tkae your company's specification, convert it to a database, and link it to E-specs. Obviously this is considerably more.....but you get your own spec in a database format, which could have benefits beyond just E-specs. Call E-specs, and they will give you a quote for your level of need.

[noah]

One of our staff members called e-specs a few weeks ago and he led me to believe that it was very expensive. Must have been referring to the enterprise solutions. Has anyone used the more basic version that Scott is referring to? It does seem like a good solution. i'm more in favor of adjusting our office standards to meet existing products rather than go down the endless path of finding a miracle product that does exactly what we want or the long customization road.

[ecurtis]

Hi All,

I thought I should jump in regarding e-SPECS pricing. Scott is absolutely right, there are different levels based on your organization, from a stand alone to an enterprise solution. If you would like to contact me, I will be glad to give you the pricing information.

Eileen Curtis

[gillesl]

Couple things from the tech side...

e-SPECS allows users to associate Revit components, through their assembly codes, to several paragraphs from one or more sections of a user defined document set. Currently we provide these associations 'out of the box' for a short form CSI based document but also have, upon request, the linkages to all of the MASTERSPEC document sets as well.

The issue isn't about linking to families, as we see it, but to linking to real world objects. We see Revit and BIM in general allowing us to deal with building materials and building components within a context of a built environment. In other words, a window must be modeled and specified to include all aspects of its manufacture, delivery, installation and maintenance. Therefore, by allowing the user, as e-SPECS does, to attach a specification document, and any related specification section, to an 'assembly' provides the means of handling the documentation of buildings at a higher level. In this case, given the building type, window assembly and document type, e-SPECS would provide the specifications for the window, glazing, joint sealants, related division 1 sections as well as any finishing like paint and/or vinyl cladding that the window would require to be completely covered and properly installed in the building.

A final note on the classifications of buildings be it CSI, uniformat or other, e-SPECS provides an 'open' system to allow for new classification systems and custom documentation. If your not happy with the current Revit uniformat system just replace it with your own. e-SPECS provides tools for doing this without loosing the power of BIM.

"That's the beauty of standards... there are so many to choose from!."

Gilles Letourneau, AIA
CTO InterSpec, LLC

[cliff collins]

Gill,
I was hoping you would chime in here.....Holiday cheers from St. Louis!
Cliff