Wall materials in plan

[josephgadams]

After creating and then using a wall type Revit will show all materials in plan, for example, a CMU wall with interior finish and exterior finish will show the combined thickness of all materials and not just the thickness of the CMU. I would like to turn off the exterior and interior finishes so my construction documents will only show the structural portion of the wall (in this case the CMU), for dimensioning purposes and clarity. I have done multiple searches for solutions to this issue, but to no avail. Turning wall visibility to coarse still shows the entire thickness not just CMU thickness. I have read that drawing three wall types and turning the interior and exterior “walls” off is the only solution, this seems ridiculous not to mention time consuming. I can't believe that Auto Desk does not have a solution to this issue. Showing only structural elements without finishes is a basic drafting protocol. Has anyone experienced and resolved the above? Thanks for your help.

[cliff collins]

You could just draw the CMU walls without any finishes if that's all you want to dimension to on the plans for the mason to lay out walls.

For the interior finish/fur outs, you can create a linked Interior Design model with the finish walls.

That is how we are doing it--it's a bit of a change in workflow but once you get the hang of it it works well. And in 2011 you can tag across linked files and control worksets of linked filesso there's better flexibility with linked file management. ( but not all categories tag, like Room Tags unfortunately )

Perhaps you COULD use "hide in view" and "turn off" the gyp. board? but that's really not the best practice. There is no tool I know of to turn on/off the individual components in a wall type to do what you are asking.

cheers

[josephgadams]

Drawing the CMU wall without finishes would be a solution but that would defeat, somewhat, the purpose of using a parametric building modeler. Don't you think? Thanks for your reply, everything helps.

[cliff collins]

That is why we would suggest linking in an Interior model with the finishes.

Arch. Shell/Core model
Linked ID model

This is an accepted industry standard, and also a common Revit practice.

hope that helps

cheers

[Alfredo Medina]

Why don't you just dimension your rooms using the 'Faces of core' option of the Aligned dimension tool, and keep all the benefits of BIM, such as finish layers, quantifying materials, actual thickness, etc? Please see illustration.

[cliff collins]

Sounded like the OP did not want the finishes to shhow on the dim plans.

Thus my linked model approach.

although I agree with Alfredo on dim to core for a simple job.

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

You can do the same thing witout the Linked Model complexity, which you may not have a need for.

You model it as seperate walls (Struct, Ext, Int), name them with prefixes accordingly, and then use a Filter to remove the walls from the views that you dont want to see. I use the name Prefix for filtering instead of the Wall Function variable hardcoded in, so i can have as many variations on wall usage and filtering as we like in the office, instead of what revit decides.

Then we've got doors that have the capability to 'shift' out of their hosting wall, so that we can show the doors accurately in cavity wall situations, regardless of what "revit wall is hoting" the door. The frame throats and the frame location line have the option (yes or no) to be controlled by the revit host, or manually. Manually uses parameters for throat depth and throat location.

[cliff collins]

Yep--Filtering is yet another way--heck you could do it with worksets ( although not the accepted best practice.)

The OP does not want to model separate walls--so there really is no way to do exactly
what he is asking.........

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

Understood. But hes doing that regardless, unless he decides to simply show all layers of the wall.

If theres an entire need for an FF&E model, i could make a case for File Linking. Im just saying if the ONLY purpose would be to break up walls, i would do it. Filters are extremely robust, and virtually immediate in populating views with View templates.

Plus, doing so with Linked Models will mean coordinating all of the openings, while doing it in one model with Filters will mean they can use Join Geometry to carve out all the openings at once.

Just my two cents. :)

[gaby424]

well I forced another methode with a view template:)

I think you have to avoid monocrom printing. What is importtant in the movie at the end of settings to make the pen of the structure to be a difrent than the pen of adiacent layers so the common edge efect to be removed. For dimensioning chose "faces of core".

http://www.screencast.com/users/gaby424/folders/Jing/media/7ca94aa9-dd3d-4a86-bc2a-128d5cf791d1

[twiceroadsfool]

You can go down that road, but its not without serious consequences.

1. Thats only going to work as long as EVERYONE on the team knows yo use that view template.

2. Objects hosted to and/or touching the face of the wall are still going to sit on the face of the wall, which isnt in the view.

3. White isnt invisibile. You cant see it in default Revit, with a white background. But it IS visible. Its going to export to CAD, its going to plot in two of the three plot settings (Colors to black, colors to grayscale).

4. Also, this is going to do it for EVERY wall in the project, which you might not want. So if you have ANY walls where you want to see what youre calling a Revit "finish," youre out of luck.

Using seperate walls and a View Filter will be a lot less headaches downstream, imho. But there are many ways to do it, as long as youre aware of the implications of what youre doing. "Tricking" revit usually entails it kicking you in the behind later...

[gaby424]

well at point 4 to remove the problem of wall finishes you can change the wall line to white(not only the patern)-so only contur will be white doesn`t matter if your walls use another substrate as real finish layer).

at point 3 you have to filter in the other aplication this white lines :) and print from there black and white :) :)

at point 2 you don`t need to show that objects in a structure view (I think :) )

at point 1 well, obvious :)


Of course this is a brute methot not smart as a revit user want. I think in archicad they have a nice tool for this problem.

[twiceroadsfool]

well at point 4 to remove the problem of wall finishes you can change the wall line to white(not only the patern)-so only contur will be white doesn`t matter if your walls use another substrate as real finish layer).


Well, to each their own. But i have the same problem with the "white out" solution as i mentioned above. Its still there, and it still affects things.



at point 3 you have to filter in the other aplication this white lines :)

Exactly. So if there is a method that lets you achieve the same thing now, and NOT cause everyone more frustration downstream, i personally would do that. I cant justify my drawings all getting exported to cad, and having all those lines, and then needing to open cad, and open 60 plans and RCP's to filter out the white lines, to email off to consultants, etc. But to each their own. :)



at point 2 you don`t need to show that objects in a structure view (I think :) ) That assumes that you dont have anything structural that is Wall Hosted, in Revit. Anything wall hosted is going to show hosted to the entire thickness of the wall. Unless youve got seperate visibility controls for enough of all of the families such that you can manually manipulate their graphics on an as needed basis.

To each their own. I understand why people WANT this view, but ive left the finish layers on in all of my views- even in my previous firms where we DIDNT model it as a seperate wall, and we never had a constructability issue in the field. Its an old hat tradition, that started because it was FASTER to draw the walls by hand with two lines. Theres no need for it anymore.

But i digress, it SHOULD get added to VG. Walls, Floors, Roofs, Ceilings, etc... Should have subcatagories for Structure, Finish (4), Finish (5), Substrate (2), Substrate (3).

[gaby424]

Well I have to say that in reality I have a mix of walls too. The main problem for drawing adiacent walls as layers for me is that the interior finish layers tend to snap with the ends more that it should at the corners and then you have to use a lot of Trim command. And of course a lot af clicks for every layer. I wish better control for this methotology with adiacent walls ( a smooth one)

[ron.sanpedro]

You can also go the route of editing Cut Line Styles in the view. Make Structure a thick line, and all other layers line weight 1. You still see your complete wall but the Structure gets visual precedence. I would prefer to be able to override Core, so I get a heavy line on the outside of the stud and the structural plywood (substrate), with a light line for the common face between them. But at 1/4 or 1/8 scale it ain't gonna matter much. You can include this in a View Template as well.

This trick can also be useful for giving the Structural Engineer a view to map their architectural link to, so their part of the sandwich is easier to coordinate.

EDIT: Make your other layers gray, as well as an override on Common edges to line weight 1 (if it isn't already, I use line weight 2) and the same gray, and the structure pops even more. I am not sure I wouldn't want to just make everything in the view screened, with the exception of the Structure. Not sure how that would work with phases, however.

Gordon

[gaby424]

Well in my country it`s an old cad standard to have 3 line pens (the thicker for structuralconcrete, than thiner for brickwork and more thinner for finish). The idea is to read from the first second the structure(concrete) and semistructure(bricks)

And I succeded to make it work. See picture :)

[klwhiteley]

Well in my country it`s an old cad standard to have 3 line pens (the thicker for structuralconcrete, than thiner for brickwork and more thinner for finish). The idea is to read from the first second the structure(concrete) and semistructure(bricks)

And I succeded to make it work. See picture :)


The drawing reads nicely, but how did you set up the line weights to follow the material like that? As far as I can see you can only set the line weights/styles in Object Styles or VG for walls/common edges/hidden lines/wall sweeps.

I'm working mainly on residential renovation and have just started using Revit. I'm having a real issue with showing existing walls with certain layers to be removed and changed. I'm using the approach of drawing the walls as 2-3 separate wall elements (brick facade, wood stud structural core and wall finish) so I can more easily manage the demolition/new additions. Even with joining the geometry I end up with heavy line weights down the centre of the wall where the two walls join. If I could define line weights based on material that would make a real difference to the readability of the drawings.

And just out of curiosity, do you mind saying what country you're working in?

Cheers,
K. :beer:

[gaby424]

It`s not an universal formula. It`s not a lineweight that follow a material unfortunatly. It`s about tweeking your pen weights(see point2), Object Settings and Graphic Overides and most important, the way you define your walls. My settings are good for my types of walls. For another kind of structures (double core...or from another country common walls) another settings are required. To find out the proper settings for you, you have to follow the next lines:

Point 1:
When define your settings in the testing procedure put different colors for common edges(c.e.)at every element implicated in the join proces(ex:red for walls c.e., green for roof c.e, blue for floor c.e. etc) so you can debug let say in a section if a common line efect comes from the wall or from the floor so you can identify where to override to mach your needs.

Point 2:
Common edge are THE REAL KEY. In the help file they say something that they appears when you have to adiacent layers with the same weight line. BUT i discovered that in order to avoid common edge eaven if you use two adiacent layer with same wheight you have to define two diferent pens with the same weight and to aply each pen to each adiacent layer. So I have pen setings like pen 2=0.09mm, pen 3=0.09mm pen 4=0.18mm etc.. So now you have a tool to avoid common edge if need it.

Point 3:
You will have to redefine your walls, floors, roofs, constantly in the proces of testing by making a lot of actions that aplies to the layers of an element: (put them in the core or out, asign them diferent functions eaven in reality that layer doesn`t have that function). It`s not a chaotic testing, but i can asure you that the help file doesn`t explain you a lot of the rules that revit use (some element have greater power than others...I`m talking abot relative priority between walls floors roof)

Point 4:
For every join test you should try all the 4 Core layer clean-up functions (default/use function/use common edge stile/No edge) that you find at Cut Line Stile in Graphic Overide. For me the end result was that for the plan view i use "default" and for section i use"use function".

Point 5:
Control your line weights by function in Cut Line Stile in Graphic Overide. I have concrete defined as "Structure" and bricks defined as "Substrate".

You will end up if you have enough time to test with some settings if you are luck with your type of walls. i don`t think it is recomanded to do that in a middle of a project. The best aproach for you if you want a fast solution to your actual project is to keep all the line same weight so no weird wheight line in your joins and try to highlite the structure with color hatches and of course print color. Than when you have more time, tweak your lines too.

Roumania is my country :)

[klwhiteley]

Thanks very much for your detailed reply. I started playing around with some of the settings and can see it might take me a bit to sort out the right combination but it looks promising! :lol:

K.

[klwhiteley]

I'm afraid I'm not getting this after all. In your Point 5, how do you control your line weights by function? Could you attach a Revit file example of how you set this up for your wall types? Maybe then I could see better. Are these project wide setttings that affect all walls or view templates?

I'm sorry if I sound like a real idiot. I have to say switching to Revit has been a bit overwhelming trying to understand all the database settings and all the additional workarounds that seem to be necessary to make this program work for residential renovation work. I'm sure I'm going to love it when I get everything set up but right now my stress level has never been so high. :Oops:

I really appreciate your help with this!

K.

I found the "Override Host Layers - Cut Line Styles" in the Visibility Graphics Override dialogue box for the View Properties. Gordon shows it in an attachment in his post above. I had to read this thread a few times for it to start to come together in my head. I'd still appreciate any examples you might have if you have time but I think I'm starting to move in the right direction again. Thanks!