MEP 2011 - Panelboard Questions

[brad-TEC]

Ok, finally got MEP 2011 to start testing out, and my first order of business is getting the panelboard templates set up to match our company standards. So far, everything is going pretty smoothly. I am very impressed (so far) with the changes Autodesk has made (FINALLY!) to the Panelboard schedules. With that said, I have a question. More my come up as I move along, of course.

- How do I set the SPARE breaker size to, let's say, 20A? I have read that it is possible. And its currently showing up as 0A, so it seems that there is a setting somewhere. I thought it would just be in the project's electrical settings, or in the panelboard template's settings, but I can't find it!

Any help would be appreciated.

[eric.grey]

In the panel schedule view, you can simply click inside the cell that shows the breaker size and change the number. It's similar to changing values in regular Revit schedules. That is the only way to change it.

HTH,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

Hmm, ok. That sucks that you have to do it manually for each spare. I guess I shouldn't complain though, as at least we know have the option to place spares in the panel.

Just got here and started Revit, and today is going to basically be trying to work out our standard layout, so as I come up with more questions, I will post them up. Thanks!

[brad-TEC]

Ok, in my demand factors, for Spare, I checked the box marked "Add an additional load to the calculated result", and I entered a value of 600VA. I added spares to my panel schedule, and had the Spare demand in the load analysis portion, but nothing is registering. Is there something else I need to do?

For my template, I created a 42-pole panelboard. I inserted a panel in my design, and set the number of poles to 30. The panel schedule still shows 42 poles (which is bad), but I can not add anything to poles 31-42 (which is good). Am I going to have to make additional templates for each possibility of panelboard configurations? You would think the panel would resize itself according to the panelboard poles parameter.

In the load analysis section of the panelboard, why can you not format the units for the parameters. The rest of my panel shows kVA, bu the load analysis area defaults to VA. Also, the percentages show with 2 decimal places, which is definitely not needed.

These are items I have come across so far. If anyone has any tips or pointers as to how to fix these issues, or even just tell me "That's how it is and you can't change it", I'd appreciate the feedback.

[eric.grey]

I have some answers for you.

The issue of about the 600VA Spare load not displaying looks like a defect. We designed the panel schedule to allow you to edit the load for a spare circuit directly in the panel schedule view, the same as editing the breaker size. If you add the load that way, you should see the load in the analysis section correctly. Does that take care of the issue? I will log a defect about bringing the load in from the "additional load" setting in the demand factor without setting a load on an individual spare. Remember, if the load is only coming from the demand factor, you will have the same spare load on all of your panels. Will that be a problem?

The issue about setting the number of poles in the panel schedule based on the value from the panel is one that we spent a lot of time considering during development. Some users want to show extra poles in their panel schedules. You will probably need to create a template for each configuration. Once you set up the first template, you can duplicate it instead of starting from scratch each time. We are considering an enhancement in a future release that would set the number of poles in the panel schedule dynamically based on the number in the panel.

The unit format for the load analysis section is another good point. This looks like it could be a defect. I know you can change it by changing the project units, but you probably don't want to do that. I will log this one also. You can change the precision of the demand factor in Project Units > Electrical > Demand Factor. Then you would need to update your panel schedule by clicking the Change Template tool and select the same template you are already using.

Thanks,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

It looks like that answered my questions, and I will test out your solutions in the morning. After discussing with our CAD manager, it appears we may just have multiple templates, as you suggested, for the various sized panelboards. Thanks for the responses, and as I hammer this out some more, I will continue to provide feedback. We've been "testing" Revit since the 2nd release, and panelboard schedule has been something that has always kept us from oving ahead. 2011 is definitely a HUGE improvement on the electrical side.

[brad-TEC]

I have some answers for you.

The issue of about the 600VA Spare load not displaying looks like a defect. We designed the panel schedule to allow you to edit the load for a spare circuit directly in the panel schedule view, the same as editing the breaker size. If you add the load that way, you should see the load in the analysis section correctly. Does that take care of the issue? I will log a defect about bringing the load in from the "additional load" setting in the demand factor without setting a load on an individual spare. Remember, if the load is only coming from the demand factor, you will have the same spare load on all of your panels. Will that be a problem?

Ok, I tested out what you said. What I found is, the value entered as the "additional load" is added in the load analysis, but only once. If I set that value to 600VA, then I go to edit the values in the panel schedule as you mentioned, the spare listing in the demand value is alway 600VA over what I have in the panel schedule. I would have thought it would add it for each instance, but it doesn't.


The issue about setting the number of poles in the panel schedule based on the value from the panel is one that we spent a lot of time considering during development. Some users want to show extra poles in their panel schedules. You will probably need to create a template for each configuration. Once you set up the first template, you can duplicate it instead of starting from scratch each time. We are considering an enhancement in a future release that would set the number of poles in the panel schedule dynamically based on the number in the panel.

This is fine, but I figured out another bug. When you duplicate a panel template, then change the number of poles, all formatting in the center (phase loads) area resets. I had made several changes in the center area, from removing shading and some borders, to changing how the values displayed. Once I changed the number of poles to a new value in the template settings, the shading and borders came back, and the value formatting changed back to default as well. So a simple edit becomes a rework of layouts.


The unit format for the load analysis section is another good point. This looks like it could be a defect. I know you can change it by changing the project units, but you probably don't want to do that. I will log this one also. You can change the precision of the demand factor in Project Units > Electrical > Demand Factor. Then you would need to update your panel schedule by clicking the Change Template tool and select the same template you are already using.

This works quite well, and may possibly fix some of the issues I mentioned above. I'll have to see how changes some values affects doing actual design and circuiting, but we may be able to live with showing loads in the design just like we want to display them in the panel schedule.

Again, thanks for the responses! I will continue to post on what I find, so as to hopefully help others when they start messing with panel schedules as well.

[eric.grey]

No problem, I'm glad to help! It's nice to get all of this feedback as we are looking at future enhancements.


I would have thought it would add it for each instance, but it doesn't.

This "additional load" value will only apply once to the demand factor it is assigned. So when you set 600VA for Spare, it adds 600 to the Spare load on the panel, just as if you add 1000VA to the Receptacle demand factor, it would add 1000 to the Receptacle load on the panel. When you say "each instance", are you referring to each spare? If so, you will probably want to set the load in the panel schedule.


This is fine, but I figured out another bug. When you duplicate a panel template, then change the number of poles, all formatting in the center (phase loads) area resets. I had made several changes in the center area, from removing shading and some borders, to changing how the values displayed. Once I changed the number of poles to a new value in the template settings, the shading and borders came back, and the value formatting changed back to default as well. So a simple edit becomes a rework of layouts..

We have defects logged around the circuit table formatting including what you have described. Unfortunately it won't help you now, but there should be some fixes around this in a future release (I can't mention specifics).

Thanks again,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

This "additional load" value will only apply once to the demand factor it is assigned. So when you set 600VA for Spare, it adds 600 to the Spare load on the panel, just as if you add 1000VA to the Receptacle demand factor, it would add 1000 to the Receptacle load on the panel. When you say "each instance", are you referring to each spare? If so, you will probably want to set the load in the panel schedule.


In one department of our company, all spares, as well as spaces, are given a value of 600VA in every 120/208V panelboard. In order to do this in Revit (only works for spares), I need to manually enter the 600VA for each spare. That is fine, I just want to be able to document that is the way it needs to be done for other users. Currently, our Excel spreadsheet automatically fills in this value (value is definable in a single cell in the sheet) whenever a user enters SPARE or SPACE in a panelboard.



We have defects logged around the circuit table formatting including what you have described. Unfortunately it won't help you now, but there should be some fixes around this in a future release (I can't mention specifics).

I guess by saying you can't mention specifics, you can't say if it will be a web patch, or the next full version of the software. I'd love to see it in a web patch, of course. :)

[eric.grey]

I see what you're doing with spares now. Yes, you'll need to edit each spare manually. There isn't a way to add the load to each instance automatically.

You guessed right. I can't say anything until it's already released. I'd love to see it in a web patch too!

Keep the questions coming,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

Ok, on to the header... Although my questions also concern the Panelboard properties as well.

I want the ability to show if a panelboard has a ground bus, isolated ground bus, and sub-feed or pass-through lugs. First off, some of these options seem to be set in the family itself, and not able to be set on a per-panelboard basis. Sure, it could be worked around by duplicating the family and setting different panelboards with isolated grounds, sub-feed lugs, etc. It would be even better if these options could be just checked, or set to a value (in the case of sub-feed lugs - 225A, 400A, etc) in the properties of a specific panelboard.

Now, when it comes to the panelboard schedule header, if I enter the associated parameters (isolated ground doesn't exist, but I'm sure we can figure out how to add it), it returns a YES or NO depending on the status of the check box. I'd like to see it return a value like GROUND BAR, or 225A SUB-FEED LUGS. This could again just be typed in, but being able to use parameters to define these items would make the product that much better.

Oh yeah, and in the circuit description area, the parameter "IDENTITY DATA - COMMENT" doesn't display anything. I set it to what I wanted in the various circuits (the homerun for each circuit), but the schedule returned a blank. When set to Load Name, its nice to see that if you edit the text in the Panelboard, it changes it in the circuit data as well. That is, until you hit the Update Names button...

[brad-TEC]

Now, when it comes to the panelboard schedule header, if I enter the associated parameters (isolated ground doesn't exist, but I'm sure we can figure out how to add it), it returns a YES or NO depending on the status of the check box. I'd like to see it return a value like GROUND BAR, or 225A SUB-FEED LUGS. This could again just be typed in, but being able to use parameters to define these items would make the product that much better.

It looks like I can do this with a formula. I have it working for a ground bus, so now I just need to see if I can pull it off for the sub-feed lugs.

[brad-TEC]

You guys make me mad sometimes.... :)

Been trying to figure out a conditional for sub-feed lugs. Decided to just base it solely on if the panelboard was a 2-section panel or not, based on anything greater than 42-poles being 2 sections (there are exceptions, I know). So I tried the following:


if(Max #1 Pole Breakers > 42, "TWO SECTION: " Mains " SUB-FEED LUGS", "")

Of course, I get an "Unexpected Variable" error, as it appears I can't include a variable inside of a text string. So I tried doing multiple if statements spread across 3 columns in order to display the same thing. Problem is, I have to define the "Mains" expression as "Electrical > Current", and when its false, you can't just show a blank space, but must show a numerical value. When this is done, and the panelboard is less than 42 poles, I then get "0A" floating in space...

Unless you have an answer to this, I will have to resort to just typing it in on the schedule.

[eric.grey]

I want the ability to show if a panelboard has a ground bus, isolated ground bus, and sub-feed or pass-through lugs. First off, some of these options seem to be set in the family itself, and not able to be set on a per-panelboard basis. Sure, it could be worked around by duplicating the family and setting different panelboards with isolated grounds, sub-feed lugs, etc. It would be even better if these options could be just checked, or set to a value (in the case of sub-feed lugs - 225A, 400A, etc) in the properties of a specific panelboard.

Creating new types inside the family is the best way to handle this. You don't need to duplicate the family, just add new types in the Family Types dialog while in Family Editor and modify the type parameters as needed. As far as editing the values in a panel schedule, a yes\no parameter can't be edited but we are looking at a future enhancement for this.


Oh yeah, and in the circuit description area, the parameter "IDENTITY DATA - COMMENT" doesn't display anything. I set it to what I wanted in the various circuits (the homerun for each circuit), but the schedule returned a blank. When set to Load Name, its nice to see that if you edit the text in the Panelboard, it changes it in the circuit data as well. That is, until you hit the Update Names button...

Since the "Identity Data - Comment" parameter is a panel parameter, it cannot be used in the circuit section of a panel schedule. Typically this would be in the header or footer. The Circuit Description column of the out-of-the-box panel schedule uses the Load Name parameter of the circuit which is set by the Load Classification + Space Name and Number. You can set it to what you want in the panel schedule, but as you noticed, using the Update Names tool will reset it to Load Classification + Space Name and Number. Does that help explain the behavior?

Thanks,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

Is there a way to connect 1 panelboard to the subfeed lugs of another panelboard, and basically create a 2-section (84-pole) panelboard? Or will this have to be a custom family? I started making the template, only to realize that the default family only goes up to 42-pole. And when I try to connect 1 panel to another (with subfeed lugs), it still places the feed to the 2nd panelboard via a breaker.

[eric.grey]

Is there a way to connect 1 panelboard to the subfeed lugs of another panelboard, and basically create a 2-section (84-pole) panelboard? Or will this have to be a custom family? I started making the template, only to realize that the default family only goes up to 42-pole. And when I try to connect 1 panel to another (with subfeed lugs), it still places the feed to the 2nd panelboard via a breaker.

What you describe isn't possible at this time. Allowing loads to be fed through lugs is another item we have on our radar for future development.

Eric

[mjdanowski]

- Is there a way to get rid of the load columns. We have existing projects where we don't want to take liability for guessing existing loads on existing circuit breakers. This causes us a bit of a problem when the load columns are automatically on.

- "Standard" circuit naming is causing me a lot of grief. Its the only way you can show the plain circuit numbers on a panel schedule. However, when I want to have another regular schedule which shows the circuit panel/number of an element in a column, I can only show the circuit number of that circuit. In the past I could do this (such as an equipment schedule) by just using the "circuit" parameter, and it would come up as the home run (ie. H2E1/1 or whatever). Now it just comes up as "1". if I change it back to "prefixed" naming in the panel, the panel schedul shows H2E1/1 for the circuit number! Its like I can't win... Is there any way around this?

- What does the grayed out "Display multiple rows for multi-phase circuits" in the"circuit table" tab of the "set template options" menu in the panel schedule editor do?

- Is there anyway to have the panel schedule only show the max number of poles set on the panelboard automatically? Or do you have to have a separate template for 84, 42, 30, 23, etc poles?

[brad-TEC]

- Is there a way to get rid of the load columns. We have existing projects where we don't want to take liability for guessing existing loads on existing circuit breakers. This causes us a bit of a problem when the load columns are automatically on.

I can't see a way to do it with a typical panelboard layout. It is possible on the switchboard templates though.


- "Standard" circuit naming is causing me a lot of grief. Its the only way you can show the plain circuit numbers on a panel schedule. However, when I want to have another regular schedule which shows the circuit panel/number of an element in a column, I can only show the circuit number of that circuit. In the past I could do this (such as an equipment schedule) by just using the "circuit" parameter, and it would come up as the home run (ie. H2E1/1 or whatever). Now it just comes up as "1". if I change it back to "prefixed" naming in the panel, the panel schedul shows H2E1/1 for the circuit number! Its like I can't win... Is there any way around this?

I was annoyed about this as well (ok, still am), but I found a possible solution. You can delete the circuit parameter in the schedule, and then type in the numbers in the actual panelboard schedule. It would be a lot better if you could do it inside of the template, because if you had a lot of panelboards on a project, you would have to manually enter the numbers on each panelboard.


- What does the grayed out "Display multiple rows for multi-phase circuits" in the"circuit table" tab of the "set template options" menu in the panel schedule editor do?

I'd like to know that as well, as I tried every possibility in that section, yet the option stayed grayed out.


- Is there anyway to have the panel schedule only show the max number of poles set on the panelboard automatically? Or do you have to have a separate template for 84, 42, 30, 23, etc poles?

Per Eric (HERE (http://forums.augi.com/showpost.php?p=1070049&postcount=5)), it is something that may be available in a future release.

[eric.grey]

- Is there a way to get rid of the load columns. We have existing projects where we don't want to take liability for guessing existing loads on existing circuit breakers. This causes us a bit of a problem when the load columns are automatically on.

There isn't a way to delete the load columns. Much of the formatting of the circuit table is dependant on those columns. I will add a request for an option that doesn't show the load columns.


- "Standard" circuit naming is causing me a lot of grief. Its the only way you can show the plain circuit numbers on a panel schedule. However, when I want to have another regular schedule which shows the circuit panel/number of an element in a column, I can only show the circuit number of that circuit. In the past I could do this (such as an equipment schedule) by just using the "circuit" parameter, and it would come up as the home run (ie. H2E1/1 or whatever). Now it just comes up as "1". if I change it back to "prefixed" naming in the panel, the panel schedul shows H2E1/1 for the circuit number! Its like I can't win... Is there any way around this?

We have known issues around this area. I don't know of a better workaround than what Brad suggested.



- What does the grayed out "Display multiple rows for multi-phase circuits" in the"circuit table" tab of the "set template options" menu in the panel schedule editor do?

This control is only used by templates for panels that use the "One Column" panel configuration. When it is enabled, each phase is on a separate row. If you open the template for this configuration, you can see how it displays with the preview image in the dialog.


Thanks,
Eric

[mjdanowski]

Thanks for the help! That solution with the "manually entering circuit numbers" looks promising, I will try that later.

[brad-TEC]

Ok Eric, here is another one for you...

I have light fixtures in my model that are assigned to the "Lighting" load classification, as well as the "Lighting" demand factor. When I add these to a circuit in my panelboard, the loads get added appropriately, but the loads do not show up in the load analysis (which I also have triple checked to be on the proper load classification - "Lighting Demand Factor" and "Lighting Estimated Demand").

EDIT: I just changed everything over to "Lighting - Dwelling Unit" and it is working now... Guess I should have tried that yesterday morning instead of spending the last day on trying to figure it out. But why "Lighting" doesn't work would be something I would like to know.

Oh, and by the way, copying light fixtures (with connectors) from the Arch model works WONDERFULLY!!! This should have been in the original release.

[brad-TEC]

EDIT: I just changed everything over to "Lighting - Dwelling Unit" and it is working now... Guess I should have tried that yesterday morning instead of spending the last day on trying to figure it out. But why "Lighting" doesn't work would be something I would like to know.

Oh, and by the way, copying light fixtures (with connectors) from the Arch model works WONDERFULLY!!! This should have been in the original release.

I take it back... It worked using "Lighting - Dwelling Unit" for fixtures that were placed in the MEP model. Fixtures that are copy/monitored from the Arch model, and set to any load classification do not seem to register in the Panelboard load analysis.

[eric.grey]

Your fixtures will need to exist in the MEP model to work with circuiting. There should always be a local copy.

About the fixtures using the "Lighting" load classification not working, is the load classification parameter mapped to the family (either type or instance)? I'm wondering because we have had issues with the parameter not being read properly during testing if it's not mapped.

Thanks,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

Your fixtures will need to exist in the MEP model to work with circuiting. There should always be a local copy.

Circuiting I am not having an issue with. As stated above, the actual load is showing up properly in the panelboard schedule, even when using Copy/Monitor to copy the fixture over from the Arch file. The issue is with the Load Classification, I suspect.


About the fixtures using the "Lighting" load classification not working, is the load classification parameter mapped to the family (either type or instance)? I'm wondering because we have had issues with the parameter not being read properly during testing if it's not mapped.

Thanks,
Eric

I editted an existing light fixture family by adding a connector, and filling out the Type Parameters for information I needed. I also added the "Load Classification" type parameter to the family. When it is copied into the MEP file from the Arch file, I am able to change the load classification to whatever I want, but no setting has an effect in the load analysis of the panelboard. I even set it to "Receptacle" as a test, and the "Receptacle - Estimated Demand" didn't change. So it appears that the type parameter is not being brought over from Arch, even though I am able to change the value in the local copy.

I have attached a screen shot of the Type Properties, as seen from the MEP model, of a fixture copied over from the Arch Model.

[brad-TEC]

Ok, I think I have finally figured it out. The load classification type parameter was for the fixture itself. I needed to associate the connector load classification with the fixture type parameter (like I had already done with the apparent load). Once I associated that, the panelboard load analysis populated.

Hopefully this will help others...

[brad-TEC]

We need more options for wire size in the panelboard schedule. Currently, the wire size parameter shows the wire size for hot, neutral, and ground. There is also the options to show the number of hot conductors, neutral conductors, and ground conductors. All I want to show is the hot wire size, but I can't find a way to do that.

Also, there is a Revit wide problem, not just a Panelboard problem. When a circuit is a 2 or 3 pole circuit, there is a good chance it will not use a neutral. You can remove the tick mark from the wire, but Revit still shows the neutral in all of the wire size callouts. This is completely inaccurate. If I have a 208v, 1ph piece of equipment, I will have 2 hots and a ground, period. Revit wire size callouts show it as 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground, no matter what you try to do to the circuit. This is a MAJOR fault to the program.

[brad-TEC]

Also, there is a Revit wide problem, not just a Panelboard problem. When a circuit is a 2 or 3 pole circuit, there is a good chance it will not use a neutral. You can remove the tick mark from the wire, but Revit still shows the neutral in all of the wire size callouts. This is completely inaccurate. If I have a 208v, 1ph piece of equipment, I will have 2 hots and a ground, period. Revit wire size callouts show it as 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground, no matter what you try to do to the circuit. This is a MAJOR fault to the program.

Found the "Neutral Required" setting in the Electrical Settings under Wiring Types, and now the neutral is gone on those circuits. No ignore my above comment... :Oops:

[eric.grey]

We need more options for wire size in the panelboard schedule. Currently, the wire size parameter shows the wire size for hot, neutral, and ground. There is also the options to show the number of hot conductors, neutral conductors, and ground conductors. All I want to show is the hot wire size, but I can't find a way to do that

You might try adding a column that uses a calculated value with a formula to show only the hot wire size. It can be based on the circuit's rating. For example, if(Rating < 16A, "#14", if(Rating < 21 A, "#12", "#10")).

HTH,
Eric

[brad-TEC]

That may work until voltage drop enters the equation, in which it becomes useless. I can't believe we can put in the quantity of a specific wire, or the voltage drop on the particular circuit, but we can't put in the phase conductor (hot) wire size individually, especially when the information is right there...

[rvellia]

First of all, thanks for all the previous posts.. I've learned alot just reading through this thread.

My question is, are panelboard templates saved only to the project they're created in? Is it possible for me to use a panelboard template across multiple projects? I just spent a decent amount of time creating one to look like our standards and wouldn't want to have to do it for every job we work on in Revit..

[eric.grey]

That may work until voltage drop enters the equation, in which it becomes useless. I can't believe we can put in the quantity of a specific wire, or the voltage drop on the particular circuit, but we can't put in the phase conductor (hot) wire size individually, especially when the information is right there...

Thanks for the feedback on this issue Brad. I have added a request to our database to add these parameters.

Eric

[eric.grey]

My question is, are panelboard templates saved only to the project they're created in? Is it possible for me to use a panelboard template across multiple projects? I just spent a decent amount of time creating one to look like our standards and wouldn't want to have to do it for every job we work on in Revit..

You can use the Transfer Project Standards tool from the Manage tab to copy panel schedule templates between projects.

HTH,
Eric

[rvellia]

What is the difference between "Mains" and "Mains Type"? On our schedules, we typically signify whether a panel is "MLO" or "MCB". When I use the "Mains" parameter, it list the same thing as "MCB Rating", when I use "Mains Type", nothing comes up. Any ideas?

[brad-TEC]

Thanks for the feedback on this issue Brad. I have added a request to our database to add these parameters.

Eric

May not be needed. :? Please see this thread -> http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=119468

If Revit can't size wire the way engineers do, then there is no reason to have it place the wire into the panel schedule. Or, allow the designer to override the values that Revit spits out. As mentioned in that thread, there is an instance where Revit (using the 3% voltage drop allowance in the electrical settings) upsized a feeder, even though when calculated, the actual value turned out to be 3.02%. Any engineer I know would use the smaller wire size, especially since it was so close to 3%.

In our company voltage drop spreadsheet (which I created), we actually have a "What If" selection box, which will allow the designer to select a different wire size than what is returned by the spreadsheet, and split out the actual voltage drop percentage for that wire size. The designer then has the option to use the "What If" wire size if it makes sense. This value is also entered into our report, which is turned in when the project gets checked. This allows the checker to look at why the designer chose to use a different size wire than the spreadsheet called for, and either go with the designer, or tell him to go back to the calculated wire size.

As of right now, Revit returns a value which is in no way able to be verified (circuit distance), and therefore, you can't make a determination if the wire size Revit is calling for is valid or not.

[brad-TEC]

What is the difference between "Mains" and "Mains Type"? On our schedules, we typically signify whether a panel is "MLO" or "MCB". When I use the "Mains" parameter, it list the same thing as "MCB Rating", when I use "Mains Type", nothing comes up. Any ideas?

Sorry for skipping over your post earlier. Select your panelboard, and from the properties menu, click on "Edit Type" to bring up the type parameters. At the bottom of the list, in the Electrical - Circuiting section, there is a "Mains Type" parameter. This will allow you to type in MLO or MCB, which will then be returned in the panel schedule as you are wanting.

[mjdanowski]

Thanks for the feedback on this issue Brad. I have added a request to our database to add these parameters.

Eric

Please make it able to customize wire sizes as well as a corollary to this. Many code elements require us to simply size things differently than the norm.

[Revit MEP DR]

You might try adding a column that uses a calculated value with a formula to show only the hot wire size. It can be based on the circuit's rating. For example, if(Rating < 16A, "#14", if(Rating < 21 A, "#12", "#10")).

HTH,
Eric

I am currently trying this approach and having a bit of success. I have however hit a stump. When showing a 3 pole circuit I want to calculate the wire sizes for the subsequent two poles to display "--". I am trying to accomplish this (with a nested if statement) by having it look at either the Load Name value, or Pole value, for which Revit is already returning a "--". So I can say if(Load Name = "XXX", "--", if(.......). I just don't know what to make the XXX be. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks,

[mjdanowski]

Some things I have been noticing as I put more and more panel schedules into practice:

- It would be nice to be able to select which panel schedule type a certain panel is when you create the panel schedule. What I mean by this is; do not have different categories of panel schedule hard coded within each panel family (panelboard, switchboard, one column, two column, etc. However, have a list of all possible templates no matter what type, and you chose much in the same way you do now. This would be helpful because many times we switch what type of schedule we would like to use depending on the panel use and characteristics. Right now I need to make different families to accommodate this. Its logistically annoying.

- You can't have a "switchboard" type schedule which has one circuit equal three poles on a panelboard family (it will show 1,2,3 on a one-column schedule for a three-pole breaker under "circuit number"). This means that I once again have to have two families like above. It also means I cannot easily switch a circuited panelboard to a switchboard type schedule if I need to bump up the size during design. This is really annoying.

- The panel schedule does not automatically adjust to the "max number of poles", which is annoying because you need to make a new template every time you want to add or remove pole space.

[eric.grey]

It would be nice to be able to select which panel schedule type a certain panel is when you create the panel schedule. What I mean by this is; do not have different categories of panel schedule hard coded within each panel family (panelboard, switchboard, one column, two column, etc. However, have a list of all possible templates no matter what type, and you chose much in the same way you do now. This would be helpful because many times we switch what type of schedule we would like to use depending on the panel use and characteristics. Right now I need to make different families to accommodate this. Its logistically annoying.

So in other words, you would like a generic panel schedule template that could be used for any type of panel? If that is the case, we can investigate that for a future release. The reason the templates are "locked down" as they are now is mainly because the circuit table behavior and formatting is dependent on the type of panel. This kind of feedback is great for us to hear. Maybe there will be ways to loosen the constraints more in the future.


You can't have a "switchboard" type schedule which has one circuit equal three poles on a panelboard family (it will show 1,2,3 on a one-column schedule for a three-pole breaker under "circuit number"). This means that I once again have to have two families like above. It also means I cannot easily switch a circuited panelboard to a switchboard type schedule if I need to bump up the size during design. This is really annoying.

I will add a request to our database for an option to name circuits being assigned to a branch panel the way they are named for a switchboard, using a single number regardless of the number of poles.


The panel schedule does not automatically adjust to the "max number of poles", which is annoying because you need to make a new template every time you want to add or remove pole space.
We plan to add this functionality to a future release.

Thanks,
Eric

[mjdanowski]

So in other words, you would like a generic panel schedule template that could be used for any type of panel? If that is the case, we can investigate that for a future release. The reason the templates are "locked down" as they are now is mainly because the circuit table behavior and formatting is dependent on the type of panel. This kind of feedback is great for us to hear. Maybe there will be ways to loosen the constraints more in the future.



I will add a request to our database for an option to name circuits being assigned to a branch panel the way they are named for a switchboard, using a single number regardless of the number of poles.


Ultimately, I would like to have one panelboard family, one distribution board family, switchboard family and not have to deal with what panelboard template that family is set to within a project. Right now it is set in family category settings and is specific to the family itself, rather than a type or instance. That means if you want a single column schedule and a double column schedule for the same family on the same project, you need to create a duplicate family with the setting changed.

The best example for the first two things posted that I can give is when I want to move a mechanical room panel from 400A to 600A. When you do this the panelboard is no longer the classic 42 pole version you generally see, but a "distribution board" which is dictated by frame sizes. The prior uses the classic double sided panel schedule with 42 pole, the latter uses the "switchboard" naming of circuits rather than poles. This becomes problematic now because the only way we can changed these panels over is to create a distribution board as a panelboard part type, change the family/part type, and then edit the family and reload as a switchboard part type. Its a lengthy workaround, and face connected conduits will always disconnect themselves when doing it. It would be nice if we could just change to the family/type to whatever we need and then change the template as required.

Also, I don't know if you already have a feature request for this (I think I mentioned it at some point), but it would be nice for the ability to remove the load columns in the circuit rows.

Thanks for your replies :)

[eric.grey]

Thanks for the additional information. Hopefully we can make the templates\panels more flexible in the future.


Also, I don't know if you already have a feature request for this (I think I mentioned it at some point), but it would be nice for the ability to remove the load columns in the circuit rows.

You mentioned this earlier in the thread and a request was logged. :)

[gadamson]

Has it been covered why under the circuit number column in the panel schedule it shows the panel name separator and number rather than just the circuit number?

ie rather than just showing a 1 for circuit 1 it shows "LN1A-1". The earlier version just showed the circuit number.

Am I doing something wrong?

[eric.grey]

Check the Circuit Naming parameter of the panel. It sounds like it's set to Panel Name. Change it to Standard to only show the circuit number.

Eric

[gadamson]

Check the Circuit Naming parameter of the panel. It sounds like it's set to Panel Name. Change it to Standard to only show the circuit number.

Eric

I found where this has been discussed and answered on post #18.

The in office IT revit person suggested a fix that seems to work so far without having to manually number every panel. I set my Circuit Naming parameter to standard like you suggested. Then when the homerun only showed the circuit number and not the panel name as well, she edited the family and added the Panel parameter then put a "-" for the circuits prefix with zero spaces. Hope that makes sense.

[tmatthews]

I am having a problem that is causing me a lot of headaches regarding panelboard schedules. Here is what is happening.

I have 2 jobs that I started and almost completed in 2010. Then the architect decided to change to Revit 2011. In 2010, in I would insert new circuits into the panelboard schedule and label them as spare (this was sufficient for single pole spares). Now when the conversion was done, Revit believes these are actual circuits and not just spares. I have not been able to find anyway to delete these and now as changes are being made that I need to add circuits I am not able to do so. If anyone has any suggestions it would be most appreciated. Thanks.

[brad-TEC]

How did you make them spares in 2010? It sounds like you made circuits with no load and just labeled them as spare. If so, you need to find those circuits in the plan view and delete them. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that is...

[tmatthews]

What I would do is click on a panelboard, click on circuits click on an existing circuit which allowed me to then click insert. This would insert a blank circuit above the one I was on. So... there isn't a physical circuit represented that I am able to delete.

[kalimazoop]

Here is something I ran across. Maybe someone can tell me if I am doing something wrong or if the Panel Schedule cannot read this information.

When panels are circuited together, the Circuit Properties indicates the size of the breaker and the wire. In certain cases (or most), the circuit breaker size will match the Main breaker (if provided) size of the panel. The Circuit Properties for a panel cannot be put into the Panel Schedule as a representation for the Main Breaker or the feeder information, though it can be specified in the panel it is being fed from.

This can cause a difference between schedules and requires manual updating. This is the way its done now, but the Parametric side of Revit should be able to assist us in keeping this information coordinated.

Is there a way to get to this information currently?

is everyone using separate schedule templates for MCB panels and MLO panels. I ask because we specify the quantity of poles for Main Breakers, whereas MLO just lists the Bus size.

[brad-TEC]

@kalimazoop

Can you provide a screenshot or something? I *think* I might understand what you are saying, but not entirely sure. I'd hate to tell you something, and it have nothing to do with what you are asking...

[kalimazoop]

yes I will. We are having some other problems now, but I will get back to this post and post images of the information in question.

[kalimazoop]

Following is what I am talking about regarding the Circuit Properties of the Panel.

When panel H12 is circuited to panel H11, it has a breaker size associated with it. This breaker size appears in Panel Schedule H11. This breaker is also part of the Circuit Properties for Panel H12.

In the Panel Schedule template, you cannot access the circuit properties of the panel to schedule the breaker information that is feeding your panel. If the panel is provided with a Main Breaker, then In most (or all) cases you will want the size of the circuit feeding your panel to match the main breaker of the panel. By not tying these values together somehow it can create a condition where the main breaker information for your panel does not match the information in the panel or switchboard it is being fed from.

Is there a way to link the values together somehow in the Panel Schedule Templates?

[mjdanowski]

What happens when you do not have a main on panel H12 though?

[eric.grey]

In the load analysis section of the panelboard, why can you not format the units for the parameters. The rest of my panel shows kVA, bu the load analysis area defaults to VA.

The format of the panel totals in the load analysis section may now be changed independently using update 2 for the 2011 release.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=9262907

Eric

[ljacobs]

Couple questions reguarding the new panel schedules in Revit MEP 2011. what i have found it doesnt look like it can be accomplished but figure i would ask anyway. Maybe im missing something.

1. when circuiting mechanical equipment, is there any way for the description to pull in the name of the piece of equipment in the load description? such as EF-1. Then if the piece of equipments name changed it would automatically update on the panel schedule?

2. For the description right now with it set to load name if you change it, say you want your circuit description to say P-1 - Mechanical Room 127 and then the room number changes and you click update names it deletes what you typed in so i was thinking of doing a combined parameter possibly using circuit comments with load name so if the architect changes a room name and/or number and you click update names on the circuit the room name/number will update but anything you typed in the circuit comments will remain. The downside to this is you cant edit it in the panel schedule itself. You have to edit it on the circuit or create a circuit shedule and you could edit it there. How are other people handling room name/number changes? are you manually going back thru your panels and updating them? or are you doing something like described above?

3. is there any way to pull the room name number without using the load name parameter?

Thanks for any help.

[cyriousn]

Is there a way to connect 1 panelboard to the subfeed lugs of another panelboard, and basically create a 2-section (84-pole) panelboard? Or will this have to be a custom family? I started making the template, only to realize that the default family only goes up to 42-pole. And when I try to connect 1 panel to another (with subfeed lugs), it still places the feed to the 2nd panelboard via a breaker.

I don't know if this has been answered but if the double section panel comes directly from a transformer then you can set the poles from the transformer to 6 and power both of the panels back to the transformer. Just make sure you name the two panels appropriately and then under modifications list they have feed through lugs and size the mains for the two panels combined loads. Hope this helps.

[cyriousn]

Couple questions reguarding the new panel schedules in Revit MEP 2011. what i have found it doesnt look like it can be accomplished but figure i would ask anyway. Maybe im missing something.

1. when circuiting mechanical equipment, is there any way for the description to pull in the name of the piece of equipment in the load description? such as EF-1. Then if the piece of equipments name changed it would automatically update on the panel schedule?

2. For the description right now with it set to load name if you change it, say you want your circuit description to say P-1 - Mechanical Room 127 and then the room number changes and you click update names it deletes what you typed in so i was thinking of doing a combined parameter possibly using circuit comments with load name so if the architect changes a room name and/or number and you click update names on the circuit the room name/number will update but anything you typed in the circuit comments will remain. The downside to this is you cant edit it in the panel schedule itself. You have to edit it on the circuit or create a circuit shedule and you could edit it there. How are other people handling room name/number changes? are you manually going back thru your panels and updating them? or are you doing something like described above?

3. is there any way to pull the room name number without using the load name parameter?

Thanks for any help.


I like where you are going with this question.

Can you create a projector parameter let's say called " Breaker Size" and then within your panel schedule template assign the breaker size to this parameter for equipment that you can fill in. I just did a a school in 2010 MEP and it was a pain in the butt because once I powered up the connectors I had to go into the panel schedules and make change the breaker sizes for things like mech equipment and kitchen equipment.

Thanks! :)

[ALM BIM]

Anyone know if there was ever a solution to changing spares default trip rating other than on by one?

[ekulenica]

Sorry for skipping over your post earlier. Select your panelboard, and from the properties menu, click on "Edit Type" to bring up the type parameters. At the bottom of the list, in the Electrical - Circuiting section, there is a "Mains Type" parameter. This will allow you to type in MLO or MCB, which will then be returned in the panel schedule as you are wanting.


Does anybody knows why Autodesk has assigned Mains as instance parameter?
It does not make sense. I have setup a panel with different types (i.e. 100A, 225A, etc.etc) where each Mains parameter is assigned to the type name (i.e. 100A, 225A, etc.). During design when all the loads are plugged in into the panel, you may have to change the type of the panel to a larger size. But because Mains is an instance parameter, when you change the type, mains still keeps the previous size. This causes a lot of confusions for users.
I tried to switch that parameter into a Type parameter (even though it’s a system parameter) unfortunately it is not picked up from the schedule and I don't know why, maybe a bug.

Has anybody seen this before?

[mjdanowski]

Does anybody knows why Autodesk has assigned Mains as instance parameter?
It does not make sense. I have setup a panel with different types (i.e. 100A, 225A, etc.etc) where each Mains parameter is assigned to the type name (i.e. 100A, 225A, etc.). During design when all the loads are plugged in into the panel, you may have to change the type of the panel to a larger size. But because Mains is an instance parameter, when you change the type, mains still keeps the previous size. This causes a lot of confusions for users.
I tried to switch that parameter into a Type parameter (even though it’s a system parameter) unfortunately it is not picked up from the schedule and I don't know why, maybe a bug.

Has anybody seen this before?

Why do you need mains as a type parameter? A panelboard will be the same dimensions and physical parameters, regardless of its bus size. Once you get passed 600A, you then move to distribution boards which is a totally different family altogether.

Type parameters are for things which have synergies with other information. If the dimensions of a branch panelboard changed with the bus size, then it would make sense to have multiple types with the differing dimensional data. However, that is not the case. Making mains a type parameter would have the same effect as making interrupting rating, or mounting a type parameter.

[ekulenica]

Why do you need mains as a type parameter? A panelboard will be the same dimensions and physical parameters, regardless of its bus size. Once you get passed 600A, you then move to distribution boards which is a totally different family altogether.

Type parameters are for things which have synergies with other information. If the dimensions of a branch panelboard changed with the bus size, then it would make sense to have multiple types with the differing dimensional data. However, that is not the case. Making mains a type parameter would have the same effect as making interrupting rating, or mounting a type parameter.

Thanks for reply. The thing is that creating types of panelboards ratings (which by the way sizes (i.e. dimensions and physical parameters) will depend on manufacturer and whether they have accessories) it ease to select them on the dropdown menu when you place them.
For example: 120/208V panels - when the panel is MCB manufacturers make almost any size (let say 150A) but they don't make an MLO 150A. They make a 225A rated MLO panel. What I am trying to say is that I have already created different type of panels (within the same family) for each Main Rating. Each type has different Mains and dimensions. These types match a manufacturer which is specified in our specs. The problem as I explained before is that when you select a type you have to make sure now that Main Rating matches that type (because Mains it's an instance). It get even more problematic that down the road when you're finishing CD you may have to change the type to a higher/lower rating, but Mains will not adjust automatically because is an instance parameter. I totally agree with you with interrupting ratings and mounting types, but this is prone to more errors by the user/drafter.