Revit model to analyse wind dynamics?

[barrie.sharp]

My boss has asked me if we can assess whether or not a building layout will create a wind tunnel effect. I said no off the cuff but wondered if a Revit model can be put in something to do this. I know the technology exists but I wondered if there was a package that would be cost effective and suitable for Revit. Can Ecotect do this or just analyse energy implications?

[m20roxxers]

I've used CFDesign for this, it's about $3,000 Australia Only and is really great for various scenarios and has an API link to the program.

However you need to make sure your model is airtight if your testing interiors though alot less stringent rules if your testing the envelope and external structures.

Great presentation, great results and can water, steam (especially hard for fluid dynamics) as well as radiation.
You don't have to be a super genius to run it like Fluid and for wind you will have a good use in a couple of days, found the support team really helpful and even hooked up for a few hours with a tech guy to give me some live exercises for free, and was able to share a couple of models I was having problems with (Internal airflows from ducting systems, so quite complex from what I was doing.)

It's definately worth the dollars, for both the analysis and the presentation/scenario value it offers.
I tried getting the info into Ecotect but my efforts proved fruitless and I didnt get alot of help from Autodesk so goodluck if you want to incorporate it.

[mthurnauer]

I am sure that there are numerous fluid dynamics programs that are ideal for this, but a crude study could probably be done with 3DMax using particle systems. There very well may be some particle system in the program or available as a plugin that simulates air flow.

[mthurnauer]

This is what I could find:
http://www.iesve.com/ - a suite of programs which allow you to simulate and analyise many environmental modelling scenareos (lighting/glare/shadows, airflow, evaporation/heat-recovery/heat-gain, elevator simulation, evacuation simulation etc..)

http://www.flomerics.com/flovent/prod_info/ - 3d airflow modeling and analysis

http://www.fluent.com/ - comes with many specific components for engineering such as the ability to simulate metal casting through CFD, flow through pipework/closed systems, stress/failure testing and HVAC system simulation with airflow analysis.

http://www.virtualwind.com/

[jeffh]

Can Ecotect do this or just analyse energy implications?

Ecotect can do this kind of simulation.

[samov]

Ecotect is hard to use.

[barrie.sharp]

Which is best value: VE or Ecotect? Like the idea that they provide additional functions and general sustainability. BTW thanks to everyone for the response!

[barrie.sharp]

I've been looking more at Ecotect and I can't see any wind dynamic functions beyond waether analysis. I can see that thermal and acoustic analysis is quite in depth. Anyone know for sure?

mthurnauer, good list. Looked through and VE looks promising but no idea what the cost is because CFD comes under the pro licence. Worth a poke though so I'm getting the free trial.

[Scott D Davis]

Ecotect is hard to use.

No its not. Intimidating at first, maybe. But its not hard to use.

[Scott D Davis]

I've been looking more at Ecotect and I can't see any wind dynamic functions beyond waether analysis. I can see that thermal and acoustic analysis is quite in depth. Anyone know for sure?

mthurnauer, good list. Looked through and VE looks promising but no idea what the cost is because CFD comes under the pro licence. Worth a poke though so I'm getting the free trial.

Yes Ecotect can do Wind Analysis using an external CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) engine. Ecotect has a direct export function to WinAIR 4 for CFD calculations.

[barrie.sharp]

Yes Ecotect can do Wind Analysis using an external CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) engine. Ecotect has a direct export function to WinAIR 4 for CFD calculations.
How do you get hold of WinAIR? Is it an expensive addition?

[m20roxxers]

Also I will add that I spent a massive amount of time on this working with Ecotect trying to import the result with NO SUCCESS!!!!

Ecotect is a great tool, but for this purpose you are essentially getting a viewer, you still need another package, and only winair as i said I have talked to lots of people and posted information here with no feedback from anybody regarding other packages.

IES analysis is a nice tool, but the cost is high and the presentation does not compare to CFDesign, also IES does not handle complex curves, shapes and objects which CFDesign can do. We have IES but for these purposes you would have to dumb down your model significantly for any internal modelling, envelope tools works not to bad, but again shapes have to be simple.

[barrie.sharp]

Also I will add that I spent a massive amount of time on this working with Ecotect trying to import the result with NO SUCCESS!!!!

Ecotect is a great tool, but for this purpose you are essentially getting a viewer, you still need another package, and only winair as i said I have talked to lots of people and posted information here with no feedback from anybody regarding other packages.

IES analysis is a nice tool, but the cost is high and the presentation does not compare to CFDesign, also IES does not handle complex curves, shapes and objects which CFDesign can do. We have IES but for these purposes you would have to dumb down your model significantly for any internal modelling, envelope tools works not to bad, but again shapes have to be simple.
I have demo'd ecotect and ies now. I found ecotect awkward and I couldn't get the WinAIR plugin. ies is good and has many groovy tools but I couldn't import geometry from around my building to see the effects of wind screens and landscaping. CFDesign looks promising but I can't find a trial or get indication on price.

[barrie.sharp]

OMG :shock: CFDesign is £13K!!! I'm giving up!:Oops:

[harlan.brumm]

I'd recommend taking a look at this site: http://www.proxyarch.com/wiki/index.php?title=Computational_Fluid_Dynamics

I believe that WinAir is not a commericailly available product (meaning you cannot buy it). I think it is created by a university and you must be a student to get a licenses of it. Ecotect will only visualize the results from WinAir, Ecotect will not actually do the analysis.

Hopefully, that helps a little bit.

[m20roxxers]

13,000?? wow I dunno who your reseller is but they are taking you for a ride we got it for a fraction of that price. Plus are you talking about the Advanced module or the base module?

Contact the main team for a demo.

[barrie.sharp]

I'd recommend taking a look at this site: http://www.proxyarch.com/wiki/index.php?title=Computational_Fluid_Dynamics

I believe that WinAir is not a commericailly available product (meaning you cannot buy it). I think it is created by a university and you must be a student to get a licenses of it. Ecotect will only visualize the results from WinAir, Ecotect will not actually do the analysis.

Hopefully, that helps a little bit.
Kinda helps. So, bottom line is I can't use it which rules out Ecotect?

m20roxxers, Don't know what they were quoting for since I just had a casual chat but they offered to run the sim for me for £1500! It's sufficient to say that I wasn't interested at that point. I won't pursue it because this is fairly one off for now but I would have been justified in gaining the other features that VE or Ecotect have. VE nearly does the job but it doesn't bring in all of the geometry from the Revit file which is a shame.

[jeffh]

I finally found the demo I was looking for. Here is a link to a video I just created of an air flow rate visualization. The problem is, it is not dynamic in any way. It is a static visualization of the air flow.

http://www.screencast.com/t/MWFlN2U3ZT

[barrie.sharp]

I finally found the demo I was looking for. Here is a link to a video I just created of an air flow rate visualization. The problem is, it is not dynamic in any way. It is a static visualization of the air flow.

http://www.screencast.com/t/MWFlN2U3ZT

That would do nicely but I can't get that data into the model. Is that using WinAIR?

[jeffh]

Is that using WinAIR?

Yes the data is imported from a WinAir file. If you look at the page Harlan pointed to the workflow for using EcoTect and WinAir is outlined.

[barrie.sharp]

Yes the data is imported from a WinAir file. If you look at the page Harlan pointed to the workflow for using EcoTect and WinAir is outlined.
I just get this error? Any idea?

[jeffh]

If you look very close at the workflow on that page you will see the license expired message can be worked around by setting your system clock back to 2006. Note: I have not done this. the example I posted was an EcoTect file that already had the CFD information loaded.

[barrie.sharp]

If you look very close at the workflow on that page you will see the license expired message can be worked around by setting your system clock back to 2006. Note: I have not done this. the example I posted was an EcoTect file that already had the CFD information loaded.
I have rolled the date back and that takes care of the licence problem if I run WinAIR as a standalone. The error occurs when running from ecotect and doesn't mention licence expirey.

[arqt49]

You can also try this one: http://www.designbuilder.co.uk/
It does CFD and it is also not cheap (1500USD), but there is a 30 day trial version.

[barrie.sharp]

You can also try this one: http://www.designbuilder.co.uk/
It does CFD and it is also not cheap (1500USD), but there is a 30 day trial version.
I'll give it a poke!

[shariq.s.ali]

Has anyone successfully used NIST FDS for CFD analysis and imported the results back into ECOTECT?

[barrie.sharp]

Has anyone successfully used NIST FDS for CFD analysis and imported the results back into ECOTECT?
Not me :( I gave up in the end