Model each brick on a brick wall

[AP23]

I'm creating a model for the contractor that wants to experiment with material extraction right out to a Revit model. So the output would be fully paperless. I'm testing to see if you can go as far as modeling each brick. That way you can count the amount of bricks. Since there are 4 sets of random bricks placed in the wall you can controll where each brick is placed.

For this sample, I modeled the one type of brick in a curtain panel pattern based family and insert it into a mass family. As I expected, the model gets very heavy.

So my question is, how do you deal with this performance issue?
a. model a whole set of bricks as one curtain panel family instead of each individual brick
b. model each brick as a generic family and stack them manually in the project. (less contraints = lighter model.
c. model a whole set of bricks in autocad (see second attachment, SHoP architects sample) and import itas a 3d dwg or family in Revit.

Also, does anyone know an API code that lets you randomize panels in a curtain wall?

[wmullett]

You got to be kidding us....

[AP23]

You got to be kidding us....

It's a small project, so yes, we have some time and budget to experiment and see how far we can get.

[cliff collins]

check THIS out:

http://designreform.net/2009/10/event-pike-loop-a-robot-built-installation-in-nyc/

For something complex like this, I could see modeling all the bricks.

cheers.

[Alfredo Medina]

If the purpose is material extraction, as you said, would it not be easier and more efficient to do calculated values in schedules instead of modeling each and every brick?

[twiceroadsfool]

It would be WAY easier.

For something like Cliffs example, where the specific pattern or the brick IS the feature, i could see modeling the actual elements.

For a regular running brinck pattern? No way.

[dzatto]

It would be WAY easier.

For something like Cliffs example, where the specific pattern or the brick IS the feature, i could see modeling the actual elements.

For a regular running brinck pattern? No way.
I agree. Couldn't you set up a formula that takes the square footage of the wall and divides it by however many brick are in a square foot?

[cdatechguy]

I've actually thought about doing this to make sure a building coursed out properly....because of time I decided not to...

I just threw this together real quick....I created a 5 brick family and a 4 brick family....if you play around with the reference planes properly you can align them pretty quick to make a wall....

For scheduling create a shared parameter that will specify how many bricks are in a family...

You can probably create more bricks as well to help speed up the process....but its that parameter that will make the difference...

If you like Tetris this could actually be fun doing it....

[twiceroadsfool]

Oh, i think it would be a riot to do... for fun. A few Line Based families could even make assembling it very very fast. I just dont see the point. There is getting quantities, and then there is getting quantities. If youre Contractors want to get an exact number of bricks and nails and cups of mortar, and theyre going to not hold a percentage for error or waste, the entire thing is going to be a mess. And if they ARE going to hold a % for waste and error, the CV method works perfectly. You can even include additions by window insertion for additional bricks for cutting, etc.

There just isnt a NEED to count brick by brick.

FWIW we did this one in Digital Project. The model was REDICULOUSLY heavy by the end, we had trouble opening it. But, it was back in the 32 bit 4 gig of RAM single core processor days.

[cliff collins]

With the current technology, I'd say model individual bricks ONLY if you have an unusual design like the SHop example or the NY sculpture wall, where a robot is placing each brick directly from the digital model input.

Otherwise use the Calculated Value in a Schedule and move on.

However, for the future, the Cloud offers HUGE potential power, and it may chnage our current way of thinking on such issues.............

cheers

[AP23]

It is easier. But modeling each brick would be very useful for random patterning (see attachment) and where you control the placement and extract information. Usually, if we want a particular look we would color the bricks in Photoshop and try and calculate the percentage area of each brick type. Also the building dimensions are based on the brick layout. So a windows is for example 6 bricks wide or the wall is 350 bricks high. These are manually calculated, but with modeled bricks this would goes automatically.

So there are some advantages, but it's a lot work.

[Joshua Kohl]

We export each individual elevation out to a dwg. Create our brick coursing in AutoCAD then link each elevation back into the model. We manufacture pre-fabricated wall panels so we need to know the layout of every single brick on the project. Those brick then have to match as the panels are erected on the building.

[wmullett]

"...Create our brick coursing in AutoCAD then link each elevation back into the model. ..."
Why not do it in Revit? If you use a model hatch, your cousing is done. All you ahve to do is identify which brick is where and that could all be 2d scheduled families in elevation.

[eric.piotrowicz]

From a construction standpoint I have to ask if the mason is really going to refer to the drawings for the placement of each and every brick in a random pattern? Typically when doing random patterns we have specified certain percentages of each type of brick or stone, supplied an example picture, or required a mock up and then left it to the mason to follow thru. As for the question of what to do if they mess it up, write it in the contract that you have the right at any point to reject the work and have it redone correctly.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be useful to model each brick in a pattern but I just can't see the mason constantly checking drawings for brick color, size, and placement. It seems like a very inefficient way to work, but I'm open to hearing how anyone has handled this previously.

[cliff collins]

I agree.

With the exception of the extereme example I posted above where the digital model
was used for a robot to actually place the individual bricks in a very precise geometric
arrangement.

cheers

[eric.piotrowicz]

I hadn't checked out that link until just now. Very cool indeed, but no mortar?

[twiceroadsfool]

It is easier. But modeling each brick would be very useful for random patterning (see attachment) and where you control the placement and extract information. Usually, if we want a particular look we would color the bricks in Photoshop and try and calculate the percentage area of each brick type. Also the building dimensions are based on the brick layout. So a windows is for example 6 bricks wide or the wall is 350 bricks high. These are manually calculated, but with modeled bricks this would goes automatically.

So there are some advantages, but it's a lot work.

For random patterning like that, you could now make good use of Realistic view and an image file thats appropriately randomized. I still wouldnt want to manually place random bricks, but to each their own.

[barrie.sharp]

...but I just can't see the mason constantly checking drawings for brick color, size, and placement. It seems like a very inefficient way to work, but I'm open to hearing how anyone has handled this previously.
Well of course, you should put a RFID chip on each brick type and have a site laptop tell you which pile to pick up from for the next part of the sequence. BTW should I model cavity wall ties as a curtain wall family? ;)

[twiceroadsfool]

Actually, i had a really interesting conversation about BIM, and masonry ties, and wall framing, once..... LOL.

[sbrown]

You could make a curtain wall panel the size of a brick with offsets from the gridling, Half the joint width, then make a curtain wall type using this.

I agree its an insane and probably not worth it type of excercise. I would use a linked model for the bricks so you can keep working on the "real" model and not have the performance hit from you millions of bricks.

[Joshua Kohl]

"...Create our brick coursing in AutoCAD then link each elevation back into the model. ..."
Why not do it in Revit? If you use a model hatch, your cousing is done. All you ahve to do is identify which brick is where and that could all be 2d scheduled families in elevation.

A hatch pattern has constant spacing both vertically and horizontally. When in actuality most of the brick projects that we get are not sized to exact brick coursing and when you add panel joints that makes adjusting coursing necessary. Adjusting joints by either shrinking or growing them to lengths or heights needed.

A mason in the field is constructing the building as a whole, one row at a time and can adjust his coursing as req'd on the fly. In our case with pre-fab exterior wall panels, we don't have the luxury of adjusting coursing in the field. Coursing needs to be figured out in the shop drawing phase. When the guys in our shop are fabricating those panels they are only working on a single panel and theres multiple panels being built at the same time. That is why we need to course out the entire building before hand. As far as our estimators and purchasers go they order the brick by square footage plus some.

[wmullett]

A simple formula could do this for you - no need to model at all.

[barrie.sharp]

...In our case with pre-fab exterior wall panels, we don't have the luxury of adjusting coursing in the field.
Could you model the pre-fab wall panels instead of induvidual bricks? You could use a formula to set the lengths by brick units. Not sure if it would cause you other issues but you could schedule the panels at least.

[Joshua Kohl]

Could you model the pre-fab wall panels instead of induvidual bricks? You could use a formula to set the lengths by brick units. Not sure if it would cause you other issues but you could schedule the panels at least.

We only "model" the panel which is just a wall type that is broken up using the Split Wall With Gap tool. The Revit elevations are exported to dwg and the brick is 2D polylines created in autocad and arrayed to fit each panel. Then just the brick cad layers are linked back into the Revit model and overlayed onto the elevations. It's actually really simple.

[cliff collins]

A question here for KOHL:

Could the linework that you do in AutoCad just as easily be done with model lines
in Revit? i.e. Why go thru exporting, drawing lines in Cad, then importing back into Revit?

Seems like extra work and a major performance hit on large jobs.

Just asking.......

chers